A plea to some...you'll know who you are...

Firstly, let me say I do not mean to offend anyone here. I will try to be as tactful as possible.

Like most of you reading this board I do not believe the 'official' 9/11 story perpetuated by the world's politicians and media. There are way too many things wrong with it for me, but this post about what some other people claim about that day, and the damage caused by those claims.

Basically, I am trying to encourage the use of 'Occam's Razor' - the simplest explanation is the most likely explanation! Now I know that some readers may say the simplest explanation is that 9/11 was perpetrated by a bunch of disillusioned yet highly organised group of Afghan sheepherders, conveniently in league with Saddam Hussein (a.k.a Satan's bum-boy). Well I said I don't believe that didn't I? So it's 'Occam's Conspiracy Razor' for me!

For example:

"The towers weren't hit by planes, but by holograms!"

Why would the perpetrators go to the trouble of generating then precision guiding a hologram to a point on the building where explosive charges had previously been set up (without anyone who worked at the towers questioning what was being done) to detonate at the exact moment and area the 'holojet' hits, leaving a convenient plane shaped hole? A plan with a lot of potential hiccups it seems to me - I mean, what if the hologram flickered when millions were watching?
No, be they remote control drones or bona fide airliners hijacked by (possibly brainwashed) Muslims, real planes would be most effective. And surely more plausible than the idea of using a less than perfected method of image projection?


This is just one example of many points used to try and prove the conspiracy behind 9/11, there are plenty more of course. Some are quite plausible too, but require a leap of faith too wide for me, and I can jump pretty far!

However, most people believe what they are told by their government and the media. We need to convince them that they are being lied to, and as long as some of us keep spouting borderline science fiction the harder it will be for them to accept that they are not being told the truth about 9/11. Doubters will not be enticed to look deeper into the evidence if they percieve it to be made up of such outlandish claims. They might, however, start to come round if we use simple logical reasoning to explain the basics like:

- The behaviour of the US Government before and after the event

- The evidence of controlled demolition of some of the WTC

- What really hit the Pentagon?

- Did most of Flight 93 really sink into a boggy pasture?

- Who really benefitted from 9/11? Al-Qaeda or US business?


So how about it all you believers in holograms and other such unlikely theories? Why not use your time to research some leads with a better likelihood of unearthing the truth? Because right now you are wiping out whatever credibility the 9/11 truth movement has. If you want the real perpetrators of this heinous act brought to justice, and if you want more people to start questioning the official story then here's what to do...

When you feel the need to tell someone about your outlandish theory........................don't bother.

Okay? Just don't bother. Zip it. Shush. Quiet. Say nothing.


Maybe then we'll get somewhere close to finding the truth....

Originally posted by sotp

Basically, I am trying to encourage the use of 'Occam's Razor' - the simplest explanation is the most likely explanation! Now I know that some readers may say the simplest explanation is that 9/11 was perpetrated by a bunch of disillusioned yet highly organised group of Afghan sheepherders, conveniently in league with Saddam Hussein (a.k.a Satan's bum-boy). Well I said I don't believe that didn't I? So it's 'Occam's Conspiracy Razor' for me!

Razor is over used and so most kind of giggle when they see it.

For example:

"The towers weren't hit by planes, but by holograms!"

Why would the perpetrators go to the trouble of generating then precision guiding a hologram to a point on the building where explosive charges had previously been set up (without anyone who worked at the towers questioning what was being done) to detonate at the exact moment and area the 'holojet' hits, leaving a convenient plane shaped hole? A plan with a lot of potential hiccups it seems to me - I mean, what if the hologram flickered when millions were watching?
No, be they remote control drones or bona fide airliners hijacked by (possibly brainwashed) Muslims, real planes would be most effective. And surely more plausible than the idea of using a less than perfected method of image projection?

Not that I believe it, but the answer is the technology used to do all this is extremely advance beyond anything known or even thought of that might be around in the next 100 years. I guess you missed the lecture on just how far we are advanced with alien technology.

When you feel the need to tell someone about your outlandish theory........................don't bother.

Ya you are right NWO, secret societies, evil corporations, son’s revenge for dad are all much more believable.


[edit on 23-10-2007 by Xtrozero]

Well I don't support that no-plane theory. I don't support any evidence that I can't see for myself unless it alligns with logical reasoning...
BUT that does not mean that 9/11 conspiracy theorists are wrong. Some people are just spouting any old gossip just to make a buck, like ehem Rense, or ehem Berkey spokesman Jones (although most of Jones's research seems pretty solid, I'll admit... I just don't trust anyone who does voice overs for commercials selling CRAP and yells at people to make him coffee at 3 in the afternoon like he's a dictator... I met someone who used to work alongside him at the local TV station his show is hsoted on).

But I can't get over the fact that people are still debating that those buildings collapses were very peculiar, and its very easy to overlook something as glaring as that if you're already in the mindstate that these conspiracy theories are all crazy. I ignored all these theories for YEARS after 9/11, and whoa man were my eyes forced open one day. It wasn't pleasant, and I for one don't like that I know all I know about the world now, because it makes this reality seem very small and insignificant, and it makes me afraid that we are what we are to the elite people of the world. In this modern day and age of reason and understanding and tolerance, there's still so much ill-logic, misunderstanding, and intolerance...and EVIL like we've never experienced before... but we're all walking around pretending like evil doesn't exist, like a government as large as the US government is incapable of being hopelessly hijacked by evil. Bad people don't ask permission when they rape and pillage, by the way. They just do it. Some wear dirty hooded sweatshirts and ripped jeans and scream and shout and wave weapons around, and some people wear a suit, lie out their teeth, and have others wave the weapons for them.
Hey, maybe it WAS a bunch of Muslims... but this was not religiously motivated, nor was it some issue of American hatred. It was for money, power, control. If the simple fact that every unconstitutional thing the powerful people of this world wanted instated got granted and continues to get granted after sept 11... if that's just brushed off as coincidence, obviously you've got a lot to learn about statistics. The likelihood of all of those things happening as a terrible coincidence is like one in quintillions. Matter of fact, the official story is so unbelievable when scrutinized that it makes the boogeyman look credible. It's easier to believe much more outrageous things than that horrid load of bullcrap that most people refuse to look at in an unbiased way.
There are things very very wrong with the official story. Get over being a skeptic. You cant let a few people with absolutely rediculous theories about sept 11th taint the whole argument. It's not at all crazy to question what happened that day, because what we thought happened that way is just way too convenient and way too unlikely statistically. not to mention the overwhelming evidence that contradicts the story, and like many have said before, zero trustworthy evidence that supports the official story.

If talking about holograms is a waste of time and energy and a boodoggle to the truth movement, why focus at all on trying to get the "no planers" to do something different? Isn't that throwing good energy after bad?

There is way more than enough information to start legal proceedings on numerous 911 fronts. It's not happening. Do you think the no planers are the problem?

The unfortunate fact is that the American people are victims of selective enforcement of their laws. Another unfortunate fact is that the perps in this crime are the chief "magistrates" of the land. That leaves the public who want the nation's laws enforced with very few lawful paths of recourse.

The only good thing about the current situation is the upcoming presidential election. To my way of thinking the most important issue is law enforcement. The American public must insist that laws be enforced. Particularly they must insist that laws broken on 911 be enforced.

The 911 truth movement should be enumerating these laws and demanding enforcement. If a nation will not enforce it's own laws, it will have to accept that it is in fact a lawless state. There are unpleasant consequences to that.

Esoteric theories about how the damage was done to the WTC are irrelevant.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Razor is 'overused' because it is the best and most often correct method. That is undeniable. As for missing that lecture about advanced technology I guess I must have. I have never seen anything that actual proves there is equipment capable of pulling this off. Just a bunch of conjecture and guesses. People say "What you think is the latest technology is really about 50 years behind what the US military has!" and whilst I'm sure that is quite possible it doesn't mean you should assume that whatever crazy thing you can dream up they will have.
As for "NWO, secret societies, evil corporations, son’s revenge for dad are all much more believable." well, yes, they are, because there is hard evidence of such manipulative forces all throughout mankinds history, but absolutely zero evidence of the existence of this super-holo-tech (beyond what is available on the internet dreamed up by loonies, and that really doesn't count).

reply to post by indierockalien


"that does not mean that 9/11 conspiracy theorists are wrong." - I didn't say that. I said that SOME were wrong. I believe that there is a conspiracy, just not involving holograms or any other stuff that resides on the outer outer edges of probability.


reply to post by ipsedixit


If they want to just shut up then that's cool, but getting "no-planers" to focus on reality will help spread a perception of 9/11 truth being exactly that - truth - not a bunch of made up sci-fi nonsense. And there may be enough info to start proceedings right now but any action would die without support, financial or otherwise, and would at this time be derided in the media. If we can get more of the public to seriously question events then eventually the media would be forced to start backing a truther majority. Because as long as there is a perception of truthers being whackjobs this will not happen.
"Esoteric theories about how the damage was done to the WTC are irrelevant" - Surely the real issue isn't how but WHY? And in that respect I agree, yes the people of America should be demanding enforcement of justice upon the real perpetrators.



Look, all I'm saying is that the 9/11 truth movement is being harmed by it's very own 'tin-foil hat brigade' and these people need to realise the damage they are doing but it's too late.

Originally posted by sotp

Razor is 'overused' because it is the best and most often correct method. That is undeniable. As for missing that lecture about advanced technology I guess I must have. I have never seen anything that actual proves there is equipment capable of pulling this off. Just a bunch of conjecture and guesses. People say "What you think is the latest technology is really about 50 years behind what the US military has!" and whilst I'm sure that is quite possible it doesn't mean you should assume that whatever crazy thing you can dream up they will have.
As for "NWO, secret societies, evil corporations, son’s revenge for dad are all much more believable." well, yes, they are, because there is hard evidence of such manipulative forces all throughout mankinds history, but absolutely zero evidence of the existence of this super-holo-tech (beyond what is available on the internet dreamed up by loonies, and that really doesn't count).

I would think the razor would point to Arabs taking over two aircraft and crashing them into the towers and after a period of time the internal support collapsed creating a huge house of cards type scenario. By trying to add conspiracies, like detonations, the path starts to veer off the short and straight into almost unlimited branches for all these conspiracies.

Personally, I'm not against all applications of razor.

If the cops want to use razor to arrest Larry Silverstein for demolishing a building without a permit that's fine with me. They can arrest the fire chief that "pulled it" too and the firemen and explosives experts who quickly wired up the building.

Christie Todd Whitman should be arrested immediately for announcing that the air at ground zero was safe to breathe.

Razor would indicate that Giuliani should be arrested immediately for destruction of evidence at the scene of a crime.

Razor would suggest that George W. Bush should be placed under psychiatric observation and suspicion of membership in Al Quaeda for telling the American people that he watched the first plane impact the North Tower on television, on the morning of 911.

Dick Cheny should also be placed in custody, under razor, for suggesting that "the order still stands, have you heard anything to the contrary" when informed by an aid that a plane was approaching the Pentagon. Razor makes it plain that he must have been in cahoots with the terrorists.

General Richard Meyers should also be investigated for connections to Al Quaeda based on the failure of the Air Force to intercept hijacked airliners on 911. When you consider previous Air Force success at intercepting stray planes, razor would suggest sabotage from the top as the only cause for such a comprehensive failure on 911.

I'm all for razor. Cut the BS in the media. Let the courts sort it out.

[edit on 24-10-2007 by ipsedixit]

I use to believe that there was more to the story than met the eye. But with all of this idiotic sci-fi stories, and people picking apart images found on you tube, doctoring photos, making up stories, focusing on stupid quotes and alike it just brings me to the fact that muslim highjackers hijacked large commercial aircraft and flew them into the building. The tine hat wearing people are killing what was an otherwise good cause. Nice work tin foil hat wearing people, you have managed to send me to the dark side lol

reply to post by cw034

I'm sorry to hear that you have gone over to the dark side "lol". Oh well, our loss is the other side's gain.

Originally posted by ipsedixit
Personally, I'm not against all applications of razor.

If the cops want to use razor to arrest Larry Silverstein for demolishing a building without a permit that's fine with me. They can arrest the fire chief that "pulled it" too and the firemen and explosives experts who quickly wired up the building.

The path you are talking about is far from straight and if you started at the point he so called “pulled the switch” and add all the accomplishes as other firemen etc. and all the others back to who? Bush? That is a huge path to follow with both concrete evidence and witnesses/accomplices and also the “whys” as much as the “hows” strings off into many chaotic directions.

I'm all for razor. Cut the BS in the media. Let the courts sort it out.

Using your form of razor is there anyone left in Washington or New York city that didn't play into this conspiracy?


[edit on 24-10-2007 by ipsedixit]

As difficult and seemingly insane to believe the belief of a hologramic image piercing the Towers, the most recent vid I saw of the a plane gliding like butter and out of sight into the building preceeding a huge eruptive explosion has me seriously vexed. My mind tells me it should have exploded on impact with massive amounts of debris. That is not what I saw. It gelled into the building before explosion. So many unanswered questions.
I have such a feeling of incredulousness and things out of time and space regarding that event, I can't even begin to expound upon them.

i kinda thought the same thing...except...i dont think it would of completely exploded on impact...and it was kinda strange how easy it entered the building without throwing # everywhere

I watched it all on TV when it was occuring, and it all looked real to me. The planes entered the buildings, the force was not enough to let the planes exit the buildings, and the buildings began to fall from the top, not from the bottom.

Skyscrapers and other tall buildings that are blown up by experts start falling from the bottom. Those towers started falling from the top down by the shear weight and force of the planes, and the amount of damage done by the planes and the fuel that was released from the planes.

Most people forget how massive those buildings were in size; because we are used to seeing large buildings; but those buildings were huge in all proportions.

I suggest you build some experimental towers at home in your spare time, made out of playing cards; using two or three decks to get a good height, and a fairly good base. I suspect that if you used four cards for each floors walls of your tower, and added a card or two for each floor between each level, and have 20 to 21 levels, then shot it with a stretched rubber band at about the same area or level that the planes struck the towers, that your card towers would collapse the same way.

Some of this conspiracy stuff I read is outlandish. Stick to the facts, or at least try to recreate the facts, and not come up with crazy ideas of holograms and the real planes were routed somewhere else and the passengers disposed of.

There were a lot of good innocent people that died all througout those tragedies, to mock their deaths with crazy suppositions is terrible.

To let a govt that is supposed to be taking care of it people and is instead utterly and completely abusing its powers and privaleges.....that is the real crime here....Not to add to the fact that they are getting away with it....

Russian I agree with you. It all 'looked' real enough to me as well. But the more I think about it and see it the less it makes sense. A jetliner meeting steel girders should explode on impact. That is not what I saw. It almost gelled into the framework before explosion. I cannont rationalise this.

reply to post by Xtrozero

As I say, let the courts sort it out. If a law has been broken in New York, let the NYPD make the arrest and the courts deal with the case. What's special about these crimes? Are we suspending law enforcement in this particular case?

You may think that everyone in New York will wind up being arrested, but I don't think so. Lets let the cops and the courts handle it, like we always do, not the military and that murderous bonehead in the whitehouse.

reply to post by Xtrozero



I did actually point out that some may say that is the simplest explanation!
I didn't say what my own beliefs were about 9/11, I was just trying to point out which of the theories I thought had more possibility of actually happening.

It may simply be a terrorist attack. But various things point to it a least being a case of the US knowing of the attack beforehand and letting it happen as a convenient excuse to go into the Middle East.

reply to post by jpm1602



There were a lot of strange things about that day, however, which should be looked at. Holographic planes is just stretching it a bit. The planes were travelling so fast that there would have been a slight delay between them slicing through the outside of the building (which is really just a shell), the fuel tanks rupturing and then the fuel igniting. I'm sure it would have been different had they impacted solid rock. And I'm sure on one piece of footage you can see the fuselage pierce through the opposite side.

I would think the razor would point to Arabs taking over two aircraft and crashing them into the towers and after a period of time the internal support collapsed creating a huge house of cards type scenario.

pearl harbor was a MIHOP scenario, so oscams razorwould indicate 'sometimes ya gotta go with what you know'. i.e. we proviked and manipulated the already existing situation and then didnt stop it (from happening).

Originally posted by jpm1602
As difficult and seemingly insane to believe the belief of a hologramic image piercing the Towers, the most recent vid I saw of the a plane gliding like butter and out of sight into the building preceeding a huge eruptive explosion has me seriously vexed. My mind tells me it should have exploded on impact with massive amounts of debris. That is not what I saw. It gelled into the building before explosion. So many unanswered questions.
I have such a feeling of incredulousness and things out of time and space regarding that event, I can't even begin to expound upon them.

A theory could be that the reason these planes smashed so easily into the towers is that they were not passenger planes, but military cargo planes....and those things are heavy duty.

anyone who actually believes our president or government had anything to do with 9/11 is surely a dumbas$. yo gotta be smokin crack to think this is true. what is true is the Phillipino FBI infromed the U.S that something was up (or going to happen) and we simply underminded our Phillipino friends intellengence. so you can say our lack of believing in another countries intel is our gov's. fault. thats really all there is to it. it could of been prevented but sometimes our government's intellegent's leads us either the wrong way(WMD) or doesnt act fast enough.