Muslims & America

First of all, let me define what terrorism actually is:

Terrorism

Terrorism in the modern sense is violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians for political or other ideological goals.

So - who are TERRORISTS?

What is Terrorism?

Well that brings us back to the question, what is terrorism? I have been assuming we understand it. Well, what is it? Well, there happen to be some easy answers to this. There is an official definition. You can find it in the US code or in US army manuals. A brief statement of it taken from a US army manual, is fair enough, is that terror is the calculated use of violence or the threat of violence to attain political or religious ideological goals through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear. That’s terrorism. That’s a fair enough definition. I think it is reasonable to accept that. The problem is that it can’t be accepted because if you accept that, all the wrong consequences follow. For example, all the consequences I have just been reviewing. Now there is a major effort right now at the UN to try to develop a comprehensive treaty on terrorism. When Kofi Annan got the Nobel prize the other day, you will notice he was reported as saying that we should stop wasting time on this and really get down to it.

But there’s a problem. If you use the official definition of terrorism in the comprehensive treaty you are going to get completely the wrong results. So that can’t be done. In fact, it is even worse than that. If you take a look at the definition of Low Intensity Warfare which is official US policy you find that it is a very close paraphrase of what I just read. In fact, Low Intensity Conflict is just another name for terrorism. That’s why all countries, as far as I know, call whatever horrendous acts they are carrying out, counter terrorism. We happen to call it Counter Insurgency or Low Intensity Conflict. So that’s a serious problem. You can’t use the actual definitions. You’ve got to carefully find a definition that doesn’t have all the wrong consequences.

Seems like Low Intensity Warfare sounds terrible similar to the definition of terrorism - and if that is true, then basicly every country around the world with a strong government and a strong military is using terrorism as their tool to acchieve their political or ideological goals. And if United States are the strongest among them all - then United States is the terrorist country number 1! Yeah, that sounds kind of scary doesn't it? In any case, what I wanted to point out was that terrorism is not the weapon of the weak - but the weapong of the STRONG! And that certain Counter-Terror tactics - or War on Terror as we call it today - are terrible similar to the definition of terrorism! But that is kind of not important here, just wanted to point that out.

Still - I see many of you have a problem with Muslims; and you equal every single one of them with terrorism. How many Muslims are there? At a level of 1.2 billion, they represent about 22% of the world's population. They are the second largest religion in the world. Only Christianity is larger, with 33% of the world's inhabitants. So, are you saying that 1.2 billion people represent terrorism? That is a very ignorant stereotype - and is equal like I would say, that 33 % of the Christian population are pedophiles. Because it is simply not true. And by steretyping entire religion and their members, you are just showing how close-minded and ignorant you really are. In fact Islam is an incredibly peacefull religion - but it can be perverted into something evil of course.

And I really do not understand, why so many equal the attacks on the Eleventh of September with Muslim terrorism - when according to scientifics polls, 84 % of Americans say that 9/11 was a COVERUP! I guess I have stumbeleed upon those 16 % who still deny. Frankly I belive it was a coverup too - and those few Muslims who were supposed to hijack those airplanes were just patsies, scapegoats, which will smear an entire religion of being terrorists. Why not? After all, the Great Russian Empire has collapsed and the Free West needs a new Arch Enemy to fight with. What better then an enigmatic-phantom-Islamic-superterrorists!

Originally posted by Souljah
I see everybody made up their mind already.

Just one last question:

HOW MANY DID ACTUALLY WATCH THIS DOCUMENTARY?

My My you start a thread entitled "Muslims and America" and did not expect this ?

As the Second poster mentioned, I'm not up for watching a long movie based on 1 case.

In fact, I remember there was a case here in Australia where a current affairs show endeavored to swap a young muslim girl with a young white girl.

The outcome?

The muslim girl refused to participate in any of the activities of the non-muslim counterpart, segregated herself, ate her own food, derided the 'sexually explicit' nature of her counterpart, attacked her friends as being sluts and whores, while -

The white girl participated with her muslim counterparts family activities, tried their food, sat at their table and spoke with her family, listened to their views, never once complained, accepted it as a healthy experience, and even went into a shop that caters to islamic surfwear and donned a burqini and went to the beach.

The muslim forums I was reading at the time, howled her down as a slut and drunk for her way of life, yet complemented their muslim sister for her 'sticking to her guns'.

Now, I don't care what anyone else says, that infuriates me NO END.



edited for typos.

[edit on 23/10/2007 by badw0lf]

On a global scale, and especially in the west, how many people are injured or die from terrorism each year? Not that many eh? Now, compared to deaths from avoidable health problems and injury through being a victim of crime, and all the other things that can happen, it's not very many is it.

I think we should all get a bit of perspective on the whole terrorist "threat". Okay, some nutter might detonate a dirty bomb in a city and kill thousands, but lets face it, tens of thousands of people died in the first few minutes of the 2005 Tsunami.

Ideally I'd like to be able to go into work and not have to worry about a plane crashing into the museum (actually, the thought of that only just occured to me). Religion isn't the source of all this rubbish, people are. And lets face it, there are an awful lot of screwed up individuals out there - they are created by the environment around them and as long as innocent people grow up brutalised by their environment we will have terrorism.

The majority of the world today is pretty awful, and we've made it that way. Create an abhorrent environment and you create individuals with abhorrent natures. It was inevitable that the violence we have today is going to continue, but an absurd "war on terror" is not the remedy, things have to change about the way we live our lives and interact with the rest of the world. Terrorism is merely a minor symptom of a far greater problem.

All the people who come on here mewling like an overweight man-child about "an evil religion" and "evil prophet" "blah, blah, blah" "whinge, whinge, whingw" need to actually attempt to look at the world with cold rationality instead of blaming absurd notions like religion. It's always pitiful when someone attempts to educate themselves and gets it all wrong.

reply to post by badw0lf


Sadly you will find that attitude among a lot of funnymentalist Christians as well.

This ridiculous notion that Islam is any worse than Judaism or Christianity is bizarre. The world has seen terrorists from every religion, doing unspeakable things. Christianity and Judaism both contain a LOT of horrific lessons for people - instruction in beastly behaviour and disgusting ethics. If we really want to pull apart and dissect religious verse, all religions will come out looking equally poorly.

Profiling, or using stereotypes to prevent stereotypical behaviour, is fatally flawed. As we've seen, terrorists will do what they can to accomplish their aims, and if that means using any of the white Muslims in their terroristic circles (and yes, there are plenty - such as Richard Reid (the Shoe Bomber) and that John Walker Lindh kid. If we're there looking for people who look Muslim, and ignore the rest, soon one of those "normal-looking" folks will be the terrorist, and all we achieved was to severely annoy and inconvenience every single Muslim.

Yes, profiling was common-place in the UK during the IRA's bombing campaigns, but that doesn't mean it's fine. If we want to take this argument to its logical extreme in order to better illustrate it, as long as something has been done before, it's OK to do it again. Which presumably includes gas chambers, death squads, ethnic cleansing, etc. etc. etc.

The Muslim terrorists we see in the world today aren't fighting for Islam, to convert us all, but are reacting to perceived grievances against Muslims around the world. The sense of brotherhood among Muslims is very strong, far stronger than it is in Christianity, and rivals Judaism. An attack on one group of Muslims by non-Muslims is felt by the whole community. So when we see all the bad things that the west has done to Muslims across the world, it's pretty easy to figure out what they actually want, and why they're doing what they're doing. If we want to end terrorism, we should stop making people want to fight us. Then the problem goes away.

Getting rid of all religion would help, too.

Fundamentalism of all stripes, Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc are a reaction of a community that feels itself undermined or threatened or under attack by a more secular world.

Fundamentalism in the Muslim world began as a reaction of the secularization of Muslim societies in Egypt and Iraq, Syria and Iran and so forth. The leaders at the time, Nassar and Assiad, and the Shah etc. used fairly heavy handed tactics to drag their nations into the modern world. Generally speaking, a good idea, but the way it was carried out bred a counter reaction with the growth of the Egyptian brotherhood and like organizations. The more the average Muslim was felt to be put out and brushed aside by their nations, the more inclined they became to embracing a fundamentalism.

Also there is the unfortunate fact that the wealth of oil (and modernatization) was not spread around among the people. An important issue in Islam as more than anything it is a communitarian religion in that it is the redemption of the individual within the context of society that matters most. Remember one of the 5 pillars of Islam is charity or the giving of alms. In a modern context this could be described as spreading the middle class.

None of this happened and the resentment simply grew and grew until it reached a cultural breaking point and the fundamentalist groups turned to terrorism... first against their own governments which ignored the poor and working class and eventually against the west, which is, actually rightfully so, seen as the fount of modernism.

So long as Islamic cultures feel under attack, there will be terrorist activity. bush minor's war on terror and his invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and his threats against Iran and his failure to deal with the Palestinian problem all, every last one of them play into the extremists hands; and I personally believe that is exactly what Osama Bin Laden was hoping for when he launched the 9/11 attacks, a foil to spread his message with. A see I told you so kind of reaction.

When Islamic societies and cultures no longer feel threatened or under attack from both within, and more importantly, from without; and when the wealth of their respective regions are spread more equitablity, the need for terrorism will fade.

Originally posted by Souljah
84 % of Americans say that 9/11 was a COVERUP! I guess I have stumbeleed upon those 16 % who still deny. Frankly I belive it was a coverup too - and those few Muslims who were supposed to hijack those airplanes were just patsies, scapegoats, which will smear an entire religion of being terrorists. Why not? After all, the Great Russian Empire has collapsed and the Free West needs a new Arch Enemy to fight with. What better then an enigmatic-phantom-Islamic-superterrorists!

A majority doesn't equate to the truth. Was it a cover-up? Only in the fact that I think the government knew that it was going to happen and didn't warn the American populace of it. As far as the perpetrators are concerned, I don't think there is any fabrication there at all.

The whole 9/11 event gave the Abrahamic religions a springboard to start a new crusade in an effort to regain power they perceived has been lost. It's really that simple.

Originally posted by dave420


The Muslim terrorists we see in the world today aren't fighting for Islam, to convert us all, but are reacting to perceived grievances against Muslims around the world. The sense of brotherhood among Muslims is very strong, far stronger than it is in Christianity, and rivals Judaism. An attack on one group of Muslims by non-Muslims is felt by the whole community. So when we see all the bad things that the west has done to Muslims across the world, it's pretty easy to figure out what they actually want, and why they're doing what they're doing. If we want to end terrorism, we should stop making people want to fight us. Then the problem goes away.

Good post your getting close to the truth, theres more too, I hope people read my post.

One of the most important things is proper education, without that, there will be dumb easily manipulated young guys that will get brainwashed by leaders of groups who have a political agenda, who use, abuse and twist religion (Islam in this case) for their political needs.

Heres a very good web page link, it has a very well educated Muslim, who has studied the Quran more than any of us, he shows how terrorism is one of the greatest sins possible in Islam, and also shows the quotes from the Quran that terrorists use to confuse and recruit young individuals, without telling them the REAL meaning. Here he shows the real meanings of them.

It also has a few more explained misunderstandings that people have with Islam, its definetly something I think people should read, before pointing fingers at Islam, instead of crazy terrorists.(Remember, proper education ) Check it out, scroll down the page to read it, I suggest reading it all for good information: www.muhaddith.org...

Enjoy.



[edit on 23-10-2007 by _Phoenix_]

Its very interesting but sadly the died in the wool's on here will never go and read it because it will challenge their ready made assumptions.

God forbid something would actually make them think.

reply to post by _Phoenix_


Sorry I had to leave the discussion. I did as you asked.

If all this is true I have a question. Why do the people of the Muslim Faith, so willingly it would seem, lend aid and comfort to the Terrorists? Why do they allow their young children to be indoctrinated in the way they are? Why don't the Muslims rise up against Terror in a meaningful way? Why do your leaders say such terrible things and make so many threats? Why do you support these people, who according to what you say, are not practicing the Faith as they should?

I've also read that it is not considered a sin by Muslims to lie to non-Muslims. Is this true. (I just realized that if it is true this is a meaningless question :@@ I've read a translation of the passage but I can't find it at the moment. Could you post it if you know what I'm referring to and explain it.

My apologies if you have had to explain these things before but this is the first time I've been in this discussion. The reason you are having to explain is that the evidence does not match your stated reality. What we see is Muslim People supporting these atrocities and seldom condemning them. We see a weak people who let EVIL MEN rule their lives.

OP,
Sorry I know I'm off topic somewhat.

reply to post by Blaine91555


Go back a few and read my next to last post... it goes into your questions some.

BTW my sources are Karen Armstrong's "The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism" and Tariq Ali 2002 book "The Clash of Fundamentalisms: Crusades, Jihad and Modernity"

Also timely is Karen Armstrong's "Holy War: The Crusades and their Impact on Modern Times"

In this timely and important book, Tariq Ali puts the events of September 11 into sweeping historical perspective. As we have come to expect from him, he is lucid, eloquent, literary, and painfully honest, as he dissects both Islamic and Western fundamentalism.

The aerial attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, a global spectacle of unprecedented dimensions, generated an enormous volume of commentary. The inviolability of the American mainland, breached for the first time since 1812, led to extravagant proclamations by the pundits. It was a new world-historical turning point. The 21st century, once greeted triumphally as marking the dawn of a worldwide neoliberal civilization, suddenly became menaced. The choice presented from the White House and its supporters was to stand shoulder-to-shoulder against terrorism or be damned.

Tariq Ali challenges these assumptions, arguing instead that what we have experienced is the return of History in a horrific form, with religious symbols playing a part on both sides: ‘Allah's revenge,’ ‘God is on Our Side’ and ‘God Bless America.’

The visible violence of September 11 was the response to the invisible violence that has been inflicted on countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Palestine and Chechnya. Some of this has been the direct responsibility of the United States and Russia.

In this wide-ranging book that provides an explanation for both the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and new forms of Western colonialism, Tariq Ali argues that many of the values proclaimed by the Enlightenment retain their relevance, while portrayals of the American Empire as a new emancipatory project are misguided.

“Ali’s style is vigorous, his narrative compelling, showing that the short-term, self-interested and oil-greedy policies of the British and Americans in such countries as Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Iran must make our much-vaunted ideals of democracy and equity seem like a bad joke.” — Karen Armstrong, The Times

In trying to find the correct spelling of his name I came across this brief review of it by, Karen Armstrong.





[edit on 23-10-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by dave420

The Muslim terrorists we see in the world today aren't fighting for Islam, to convert us all, but are reacting to perceived grievances against Muslims around the world. The sense of brotherhood among Muslims is very strong, far stronger than it is in Christianity, and rivals Judaism. An attack on one group of Muslims by non-Muslims is felt by the whole community. So when we see all the bad things that the west has done to Muslims across the world, it's pretty easy to figure out what they actually want, and why they're doing what they're doing. If we want to end terrorism, we should stop making people want to fight us. Then the problem goes away.

Firstly, considering the fact that you even admitted that radical Muslims are fighting against a "perceived slight" in history, this should bring something to your attention.

How do you correct a slight through violence? You can't. What is done is done. This is something that these people, through their corrosive brainwashing, will never understand. There is only one solution for the radical... Death.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

If all this is true I have a question. Why do the people of the Muslim Faith, so willingly it would seem, lend aid and comfort to the Terrorists?

This is another thing people seem to think.

There are Billions of Muslims in the world, just like anyone else they live their lives just the same. What the hell makes people think Muslims know terrorists?

They are so tiny and of small groups that its impossible for regular Muslims to have any idea who what or where a terrorist is, they are hidden, and are of very small minority, just like anyone else Muslims have no idea.

Aid and comfort? I know many Muslims, and they ALL agree that they hate terrorists, terrorists are more of an enemy to Muslims than ANYONE else, they have killed more Muslims than ANYONE else, they cause people to have wrong views and they cause people to go against Muslims! why the hell would Muslims support them. Everything they do is against Islam, they are not Muslims, thus Muslims have nothing to do with them in the first place, just like you.

Everyday Muslims wake up, go to work, spend time with friends and family and sleep, they DO NOT know any terrorists haha.

There are Christians who are pedophiles and molest children, they are hidden, nobody knows who they are. Why don't Christians do anything about them! I think its pretty obvious.

Heres a cool music video from Pakistan, most popular singers get together and sing "we are not that", its very popular in Pakistan. Heres more proof that Muslims are against terrorists.

Enjoy the video. Its great.

www.youtube.com...


Id like to say that terrorists want people to go against Muslims, they want chaos, they want more trouble, they want to recruit more confused kids, all this for political agenda. If people start to go against regular innocent everyday family Muslims, then the terrorist are winning.

PEACE, lets all just get along.

reply to post by Souljah

"Do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?

Telling the truth 16%

Hiding something 53%

Mostly lying 28%

Not sure 3%"

With these polls I think it is really important to know how the question was asked. These people are not saying they think that 9/11 was an inside job. If you were to ask how many people think the Government lies all the time you would get the same results. This is why most polls are so meaningless. The people controlling the polls ask the questions in a way to get the response they want. With the election approaching, everything the NY Times does will be anti-Republican. I'm so sick of their distortions and them passing off OP/ED Pieces as actual news that I've stopped buying the Times.

I don't think it is a big secret that nearly all the Jihadists are Middle Eastern. Knowing this to be a fact, it would be lunacy to not profile Middle Eastern Men in the right age group. Anyone responsible for our security not doing this should be fired for stupidity and incompetence. My family was put through a lot of discomfort during WW2. I'm of German descent. My family did not whine and complain. Even when the Government took our Ranch they remained loyal to the United States because they knew how great it is here. They joined the fight against the evil any way they could. My own Mother built roads for the Railroad by hand with picks and shovels. My Father walked away from his home to use his skills to help build ships. They considered themselves a part of the Country they lived in, not slaves to Monsters who took over the land of their ancestors. I react the way I do because I see the opposite happening with the Muslim People. Their silence is deafening.

Since you know that these Terrorists are Middle Eastern. Since you know what is meant by the term Terrorist in contemporary times (doublespeak aside you do know). If your job was to identify these Monsters from a crowd, how would you do it without Profiling? You could not and still protect people. It is pure fantasy to say otherwise.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
I know many Muslims, and they ALL agree that they hate terrorists, terrorists are more of an enemy to Muslims than ANYONE else, they have killed more Muslims than ANYONE else, they cause people to have wrong views and they cause people to go against Muslims! everyday family Muslims, then the terrorist are winning.

PEACE, lets all just get along.

You are giving an example of what needs to happen right now.

I agree. We do need to all get along.

Edited to say; I have Muslim Friends, so don't judge me to harshly.

[edit on 10/23/2007 by Blaine91555]

Right after 9/11 Bill Mahar had a Pakistani musician on his show Politically Incorrect. At one point the musician made the exact same point; that moderate Muslims despised the extremists and terrorists. To which Mahar asked so why wasn't it that the moderates weren't taking to the streets in protest. What the musician said in response stuck in my head and could apply to the situition here in the United States as well.

He said: "When was the last time you heard of moderates anywhere taking to the streets?"

He was right... they don't and, in this country they don't vote as much either leaving the field to the extremists from both sides the field.

I thought the documentary was a real eye opener for most people who know nothing, or want to know nothing about Islam. I have read bits and piece from the Qu'ran and it's your average religious book. I found an interesting site about it containing more scientific knowledge than all other religious texts combined. Other than that, it's bound to have your positive and negative concepts, just as the bible does, old or new testament.

I think it's less about religious differences, rather than it is about national, even international ignorance.

[edit on 23-10-2007 by DeadFlagBlues]

Originally posted by grover
Right after 9/11 Bill Mahar had a Pakistani musician on his show Politically Incorrect. At one point the musician made the exact same point; that moderate Muslims despised the extremists and terrorists. To which Mahar asked so why wasn't it that the moderates weren't taking to the streets in protest. What the musician said in response stuck in my head and could apply to the situition here in the United States as well.

He said: "When was the last time you heard of moderates anywhere taking to the streets?"

He was right... they don't and, in this country they don't vote as much either leaving the field to the extremists from both sides the field.

I also think regular Muslims at the moment don't feel like they have to say or do anything about it, I think most feel that other people are not dumb enough to think they have anything to do with terrorists in the first place, therefore they have nothing to defend or explain. I think most of the problems for Muslims in Iraq at the moment is trying to live their lives and go out and buy their groceries without getting their family and themselves blown up by madmen. Now they really do have problems!

We have one terrorist attack and its a HUGE deal, BUT they have weekly terrorist attacks, try saying that they support terrorists now! Terrorists are killing their friends and family. Terrorists are their worse enemy.
They are in the middle of it all just like the rest of us, in the middle of this political madness between terrorist groups and world leaders.

Lets hope that all of this slowly fades away forever.
Have you guys noticed that lately there isn't as much news about terrorist attacks as before. Maybe it really is slowing down, but Ive got a feeling that if Bush attacks Iran, then things are going to heat up again, lets hope not. Hate breeds Hate.

Terrorism is the weapon of the poor and the problems need to be addressed at that level. The resort to violence is almost always a last gasp measure.

reply to post by Blaine91555

In my humble opinion the whole "TERROR" situation is way overblown. The threat of a terrorist attack within United States is so small, that the very possibility of you dying from a hand of an islamic jihadist is smaller then you being hit by lightning. And there are many other leading caues of death, which should be looked at first! Like for example - wrongly prescribed drugs kill definetly more people then any terrorists! Or alcohol. Or traffic accidents. Or smoking. Or eating at McD's everyday. Or allergy to peanuts. I mean - there are so many other caues of death, that it makes you think if this terrible threat of terrorism is even REAL! I think that all of this threats are way overblown to keep people afraid and in a constant state of paranoia of Muslims and anything that has to do with Islam. And that is why people respond this way and react this way.