FDA Raids Herbal Tea Products Company

Who's body is it anyway?

Mine!

That's right. My body is mine, mine to do with as I like, and accept responsibility for the consequences. Just as your body is yours, and everyone else's body is their own. And that applies just as well to mind, soul, and spirit as to body.

So government agencies, cut the BS about protecting me from myself. I have the Pazuzu-given right to put anything I damn well please into myself - cannabis, tobacco, DMSO, MDMA, saturated animal fats, heroin, coc aine, alcohol - even a bullet or knife for the final escape. I don't tell you fat-assed rajahs how to run your lives, after all.

Originally posted by whitewave:
reply to post by NRen2k5

 

It is impossible to reason with unreasonable people so I was just going to put you on my ignore list but your snide and smug comments need to be repudiated so, for the benefit of those who may have thought you had some valid come-back to my post, I will respond.

How kind of you. But it would be me who should put you on my ignore list for being unreasonable. But I’m more mature than that.

1) "Three drugs out of thousands? Fallacy of proof by example!"
I could refer to my PDR, several nursing drug books or my 28 years of observation and experience as a registered nurse to show that many more than 3 drugs are responsible for people's deaths but the last part of your response was the more interesting; fallacy of proof by example. In other words, "you prooved by example, therefore it's a fallacy." That's actually pretty funny NRen. I guess I'll have to stop cheating by giving examples of proof. NOT!

There’s nothing funny about it. Just because two things coincide, no matter how much they seem related, isn’t enough to say definitely that one caused the other.

In South Korea, they have this urban myth called “Fan Death.” Somehow the people there have latched onto the belief that if you sleep with an electric fan in the room, it will kill you. Some think it sucks the oxygen out of the room. Others think it somehow chills you to the point of hypothermia and death. In the news media, deaths are regularly attributed to sleeping with a fan running. Someone can die of a heart attack, stroke, aneurysm, you name it! But at the end of the day, they decide it was the fan’s fault.

If you were to prove the actual immediate cause of death of such a person to a Korean, they will just try to think of a way that the fan could cause that.

Why? They were sleeping with the fan on, of course! And we all know a fan will kill you in your sleep!

They just quite simple refuse to believe otherwise in the face of any proof.

2) You said that just because people had been using natural remedies for millenia didn't proove they were effective. Technically that's true but one has to ask WHY would people go to the time and trouble of searching for plants, concocting potions, etc. if those remedies were not effective? Why would they continue to do so for thousands of years if there were no benefit? I think that through trial and error people have found that certain plants have physiological effects on them and have incorporated that knowlege into their survival repetoire.

To be sure, SOME herbal remedies are effective. Others rely entirely on placebo effect, and others still could be little more than a sort of aromatherapy.

To say point blank that they’re superior to pharmaceuticals is ludicrous. Many drugs are made by isolating the active chemical in such an organism and replicating and concentrating it.

3) "Patented? No. Used? Yes." (regarding drug companies researching natural remedies in hopes of finding active ingredients they can patent) It's true that natural ingredients can not be patented which is why Codex Alimentarius is geared toward ridding us of herbs and supplements to make way for the multibillion dollar industry left in its wake. Drug companies are researching active ingredients in natural herbs and plants to determine if a synthetic (ie, patentable) product that mimics the natural plants effectiveness can be produced. Digitalis is the pharmaceutical industry's answer to the natural Foxglove.

I love how irrational people do this. You confront them with something irrational in their conspiracy hypothesis, so they use another conspiracy hypothesis to back it up.…

4) You asked for a report on the cancer cure that was shelved due to lack of ability to patent anything that worked as well as the natural. If you're not too lazy or self-satisfied in what you think passes for knowledge to look it up, the following URL is provided. www.isecureonline.com/Reports/FCBK/W680/HA01

Dead link.

5) "So NOW you use the FDA's definition? Convenient!" (referring to the word "drug")
I have only referred to natural remedies as "natural remedies". I believe it was YOU that suggested they were drugs, not I. And yes, according to the FDA, natural remedies are not drugs, negating the need for a prescription.

Prescriptions are an artificial construct created by men to keep other men safe from addiction, overdoses and conflicts with their medications. These same things can happen with herbal natural remedies too. The original comment applies to people pushing herbal remedies just like big pharma: drug dealers don’t care about their buyers!

6) "Problem among some members here not understanding burden of proof." Before I open that can of worms (which I am quite willing and able to do), let me ask if you even know who Royal Raymond Rife was. Do you? Do you know what he accomplished? Do you know his universal microscope is still on display in the Smithsonian? The Smithsonian does not devote a lot of floor space to snake oil or voodoo dolls.

Yes. Do you know who he is? You might want to brush up on your reading. The Smithsonian to my knowledge doesn’t have one on display, they just published a report on it, more than 60 years ago. He very well might have made very good microscopes, but his cancer cure was pure quackery.

www.quackwatch.org...

7) "Maybe the machines didn't work?"
I suppose that's why the AMA offered to BUY the machines?

Prove it.

I suppose that's why all those terminal patients didn't die of cancer even though their own doctors had given up on them.

Really? They didn’t die of cancer? Proof time again!

8) "Not true." Are you saying that it's not true that doctors don't educate themselves on what alternative treatments to cancer are available or are you saying that it's not true that they are taught that chemo, surgery or radiation are the only effective treatments against cancer?

Yes.

I work with doctors on a daily basis

And you aren’t one yourself.

and I can assure you that they get about one (count them...ONE!) hour of nutrition education.

No, at this point you’ve lost so much credibility that you couldn’t assure me that the sky is blue without proof.

They are taught that only chemo, surgery and radiation are effective against cancer.

Prove it.

All the new "alternative" therapies in allopathic medicine (in regards to cancer treatments) are geared toward making one a good surgical candidate, making radiation more target specific or making chemo more tolerable.

Prove it.

9) It is not I that is trying to "chase off" reason on this board, but you, sir. Attacking the person is not equivalent to attacking the argument or the reasoning behind it. If you would like a list of fallacies in logic, I would be happy to provide it. Unreasoned insults and condescension will not serve you well on this site, buddy.

Which is exactly why I am breaking down your argument brick by brick rather than attacking you. But you seem to want to insist on playing the victim now. Shameful.

If you care to critically read your arguments and those of your camp, you would realize that they don’t have any weight to them. You need to first take facts, and then analyze them to form a proper argument. It’s bad enough when your analysis is critically flawed. That’s just a poor argument. But when your “facts” aren’t even “facts,” it’s just plain insulting.

I trust vitamins and herbs way more than I trust pharmaceuticals.

So the FDA doesn't have a problem with high fructose corn syrup being in so many products and the health problems that are linked to it, but it needs to take action against herbal tea.

If it wasn't true it would be laughable.

Just recently I read a very good thread about the 25 Rules of Disinformation implemented on forums.

I see that many of them are being used in this thread, and I wonder what one has to gain by being so disruptive.

Agreed. Some people here seem to think that “herbal” and “alternative medicine” dealers shouldn’t be held up to the same standards as the rest of society and will go to great lengths to defend them even when they know they’re guilty.

[edit on 6-1-2008 by MurderSmurf]

reply to post by whitewave


The FDA nukes a American city every year by killing 240000 people from FDA approved prescription drugs adverse side effects.

Why you people have not taken them to court after each death and got them shut down is beyond me.

Big Pharma has spent a billion dollars buying the 533 congressmen.

It's called donating to election expenses=bribes.


Each one has 2 lobbyists assigned to them to monitor them.

Big pharma rakes in a trillion dollars a year from you suckers.

Nice to see a certain Big Pharma shill has surfaced again after an absence, of sorts...

Big pharma is not and never has been about treating or curing underlying causes disease or illness, its all about treating symptoms and making as much money as possible as a result of this...

Whether the FDA should be able clobber "alternative" or "herbal/natural" products in the way they do isn't up for debate, IMO...

They should not...

Did you see the FDA raid when Vioxx was confirmed as the dangerous drug it is ? Nope...

Its all about the $$ man, nothing else...

The tryptophan example is the best one I know of...One poorly made batch, and many thousands of people who could benefit from taking this NATURALLY OCCURRING amino acid don't get the choice or benefit of this substance...

I mean, my body makes this stuff of its own accord...Why can't I take a supplement of it where my body may not produce enough ? The thing about the tryptophan case was it was the US experience was followed and copied by many health agencies around the world, over one contamination case...

Sure, they're only caring for the populace....Riiight....

This lone case in my mind proves the bias of the FDA (and other therapeutic goods administrations around the world) and who they truly operate for...

There are other examples apart from tryptopan, but why bother going into these...

We know what a certain big pharma lover is going to say in response...



EDIT -- Spelling

[edit on 6-1-2008 by Rilence]

Oh COME ON guys. Who do you think you’re kidding?

Originally posted by esecallum
reply to post by whitewave

 

The FDA nukes a American city every year by killing 240000 people from FDA approved prescription drugs adverse side effects.

The FDA doesn’t force people to take their drugs. They take them by choice. And they are, more often than not at least, warned of the risks.

Why you people have not taken them to court after each death and got them shut down is beyond me.

Hmm, maybe because they’re not at fault? Gee I dunno.

Big Pharma has spent a billion dollars buying the 533 congressmen.

It's called donating to election expenses=bribes.


Each one has 2 lobbyists assigned to them to monitor them.

Big pharma rakes in a trillion dollars a year from you suckers.

I prefer shady over outright illegal.

Bribes… shady. False advertising… bad. Advertising a nonmedical product as having medical benefits… very bad.

Originally posted by Rilence
Nice to see a certain Big Pharma shill has surfaced again after an absence, of sorts...

Big pharma is not and never has been about treating or curing underlying causes disease or illness, its all about treating symptoms and making as much money as possible as a result of this...

Now you’re talking nonsense. You’re not even being specific.

For an incurable disease / condition, how do you distinguish “treating the disease” from “treating the symptoms”? Are you REALLY claiming that they only treat the symptoms? So all those drugs out there that stop the progression of serious diseases in their tracks don’t really exist? They’re all a figment of our collective imagination?

Whether the FDA should be able clobber "alternative" or "herbal/natural" products in the way they do isn't up for debate, IMO...

Agreed.

They should not...

SOMEBODY has to police them.

Or, like I said, do you think they shouldn’t be held up to the same standards as everybody else? Do you at least think they should be held up to SOME standards?

Did you see the FDA raid when Vioxx was confirmed as the dangerous drug it is ? Nope...

Merck was making 2½ BILLION dollars a year off of Vioxx and VOLUNTARILY pulled it from the market when they realized there were serious health risks attached to it.

How do you think a raid would even have been justified?

Its all about the $$ man, nothing else...

Everything is about the $$$.

The tryptophan example is the best one I know of...One poorly made batch, and many thousands of people who could benefit from taking this NATURALLY OCCURRING amino acid don't get the choice or benefit of this substance...

I’ll agree the FDA was a bit heavy handed. But to villify them is a bit much too, don’t you think?

I mean, my body makes this stuff of its own accord...Why can't I take a supplement of it where my body may not produce enough ?

Unless you have some sort of disease, you get enough of it from your diet.

Sure, they're only caring for the populace....Riiight....

And I’m sure the tea manufacturer that put misleading labels on their product cared for the populace.…

This lone case in my mind proves the bias of the FDA (and other therapeutic goods administrations around the world) and who they truly operate for...

Therein lies the problem with your reasoning. “In my mind” and “proves” don’t go together.

There are other examples apart from tryptopan, but why bother going into these...

Yeah, why bother posting them all at once only to have them picked apart.…

We know what a certain big pharma lover is going to say in response...

Who would that be?
Is that a personal attack against me?

[edit on 7-1-2008 by MurderSmurf]

Originally posted by NRen2k5
The pharmaceutical and food industries’ products are reasonably shown to be safe, and they don’t lie.

There have been, year after year, reports of FDA approved drugs or food additives that have caused increases in medical complications and deaths.

The hormone replacement therapies given to my mother for twenty years...oh they just got taken off the market last year because they cause cancer and heart disease.

The anti-depressants that cause suicide.
The asthma medication that kills with a single dose.
Food coloring that causes cancer.
Food additives that cause attention deficit disorder, depression, and diabetes.
Dermatological medicines that directly cause a host of other dermatological infections.
Pain medications that cause psychotic breakdowns.
Patches and gels that can kill.

Oh lets not forget the children's cold formulas that have been on the market and in use for decades, and they don't do squat except make the children sicker!

The list goes on, and there are plenty of websites with information on this, decades of news stories to dig up about these things.







[edit on 7-1-2008 by Legalizer]

Legalizer,

Yeah, these drugs are scary. I just saw a brand new drug very recently, another cholesterol drug I think. It's nuts. And it's like everyone is targeted. You think of a problem we have a drug for it.

-Pimples on your butt, there's a special drug for that. Call your doctor if a serious rash develops.
-Did your foot go to sleep? Well now there's a drug for that too. Get medical attention if your foot starts hurting and turns red.
-Do you fart after a meal? We have a pill, problem solved. But you may have a bloody stool.
-Morning grouchiness; take "Morning Alive." May cause disorientation and forgetfullness.

What kind of complications are the "bladder control" drugs going to cause after prolonged use? What is it doing to your body?

Troy



[edit on 7-1-2008 by cybertroy]

[edit on 7-1-2008 by cybertroy]

Spin in whatever way you like. The rules that I live by:

1. Don't eat or touch anything that contains synthetic chemicals.
2. Don't purchase anything advertised in the mainstream media.

This makes my life a bit complicated but it lessens my exposure to chemicals and I believe that it will lessen my chances of contracting illnesses such as cancer, depression, alzheimers and all the related BS that comes along with chemical burdens in the body.