Cosmological Confusion: Confounding Crisis

Universe - The totality of matter, energy, and space, including the Solar System, the galaxies, and the contents of the space between the galaxies. Current theories of cosmology suggest that the universe is constantly expanding.

Only through improving and building on the scholastic knowledge of our past are we bringing a more peacefull, efficient, and vitally captivating future to us.


By definition of the word universe: all together, turned into one, one whole, etc. the above exemplification of universe is veridical, but such a schema is fallible when tested against unconfined figment. The only logical limit of the spacially unlimited is that it can not be limited, any "two" spaces can not be separated, ergo it is not an one it is a perfected eternity of interconnected and interdependent space and time; optical decipherment such as colors and shapes is not a separation of the energetically inseperable, rather it is an ever increasing annexation of our compartmentalized sensory knowledge of masses, vibrational frequencies, densities, elemental properties, atomic and molecular consummations, etcetera.

It is my denouement that the definition of universe could only be attributed to the ever expanding knowledge of the finite Human life span and not to the properties of omnidirectional eternal space and time.

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


Maybe I'm just a moron (the accusation HAS been made before), but you have totally lost me.

I'm afraid the point you were making has left me behind a bit.


Jasn

I think I sort of get it. I think what he/she is saying that since every particle in the universe can be thought of as bits in a computer carrying information, the universe is expanding because knowledge is expanding. In other words there's more information. Maybe that's what the OP is trying to imply.

I think there are some theories in quantum physics that might support this assertion. One that comes to mind is this theory.

Is that what you are saying, LOVE?

Originally posted by SimiusDei
reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

 

Maybe I'm just a moron (the accusation HAS been made before), but you have totally lost me.

I'm afraid the point you were making has left me behind a bit.


Jasn

The point is that space and time are eternal in every direction and already there, there is no expansion occurring. I have been tackling this subject for some time now and pieces are beginning to conjoin comfortably.

It is my negligence of study if the accusation has been made before. What I am doing and will do is to make the efficacy of the subject lucid and comprehensible for the masses of "laymen" and the scientists alike.

Thank you for your consultation.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
I think I sort of get it. I think what he/she is saying that since every particle in the universe can be thought of as bits in a computer carrying information, the universe is expanding because knowledge is expanding. In other words there's more information. Maybe that's what the OP is trying to imply.

I think there are some theories in quantum physics that might support this assertion. One that comes to mind is this theory.

Is that what you are saying, LOVE?

That is not exactly what I was getting at. Fundamentally we do know that space and time are interconnected or one and the same, yes.

Expound: Space and time are eternal, outstretched omnidirectionally. Space and time itself, that which we are connected to, are not a totality or a whole, rather an eternal expanse. It is the eternally limited knowledge of our minds acting as sensory conduits and receptors for the consciousness that signifies and symbolizes the ever expanding totality. Yet know that the space and time are not expanding, it is already eternal, it is our knowledge of the space and time that will ever be expanding, not the space and time itself. I hope that brings perspecuity to the subject I am attempting to reveal.

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


I'm still trying to digest the theory I linked to. Give me some time to wrap my head around this one... or dream about it (that seems the fastest way to understand mind boggling theories, at least for me)

So, basically, infinity is the concept of an ever increasing attribute, let's use numbers. A number is infinite if it is always increasing. Start counting, as long as you are actively counting, you are counting towards infinity.

I think LastOut is saying that because the universe is deemed as infinite, it has to be expanding, by definition, as stated by the previous example with the numbers.

Is this correct or no? This is the premise that I received from your posts.

-Warlo

P.S. LastOut, your posts always seem to be very deep, so deep they seem always cryptic. Nothing against this, as they are very insightful, just very difficult to reply to when you are so vague (out of necessity).

*edit to add - So, the universe is infinity personified, or objectified. Very, very insightful. And very enlightening. Great post, LostOut.

[edit on 18-10-2007 by Warlo]

Originally posted by Warlo
So, basically, infinity is the concept of an ever increasing attribute, let's use numbers. A number is infinite if it is always increasing. Start counting, as long as you are actively counting, you are counting towards infinity.

This is precisely what infinity isn't. No matter how long you count you'll never get to infinity, just to a really really big number. To see why this is the case, try to work out which number you'll count immediately before getting to infinity...

I could go on but it's hardly germaine to this thread.

Originally posted by jim_w
This is precisely what infinity isn't. No matter how long you count you'll never get to infinity, just to a really really big number. To see why this is the case, try to work out which number you'll count immediately before getting to infinity...

I could go on but it's hardly germaine to this thread.

Infinity is a tricky concept, even you yourself say, "No matter how long you count you'll never get to infinity, just to a really really big number." It's the concept that if you, or maybe a computer start counting indefinitely, without any intent of stopping, you are effectively counting towards the concept of infinity. Obviously you will never reach a limit, as infinity is absolute unboundedness.

Was just trying to use a "real world" example to sum up a very philosophical post, sorry for not explaining it clearly enough.

-Warlo

reply to post by Warlo


Space and time are not expanding; they are eternal and unbounded, omnidirectionally.

The expansion occurring is the human mind trying to count to infinity through gathering pieces of it, if you will allow me to use a mathematical allegory here in place of the eternally various aggregates of knowledge, while attempting to understand the eternal possibilities that are by default derived through unlimited space and time, that which is not expanding itself, rather being understood eternally from a limited brain and/or limited brains eternally at different levels of awareness and evolution through space and time.

In simplistic terms: Space and time are eternal and not limited nor expanding, and it is this way in every direction. Also sempiternally interconnected, interdependent, and inter-related. The limited capacity of the seemingly singular Human brain that must learn symbols and cognitive functions in order to understand the eternal is what is ever expanding and imploding. The conglomerated knowledge of the eternal is the expanse and implode, not the eternal its self.

Infinity can not be counted to. There are a few symbols here on Earth that represent eternity such as 0, sidways 8, etc. Must accept the concept as non-numerical yet pro-symbolic.

[edit on 19-10-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Space and time are not expanding; they are eternal and unbounded, omnidirectionally.

I assume the Big Bang has no place in your system then?

It would seem that you believe Space and Time have always existed and will continue to always exist?

And it is our understanding of this that can be said to be expanding as our knowledge increases?

How do you account for the fact that everywhere we look, we see things moving away from us?

Originally posted by made2fade
Space and time are not expanding; they are eternal and unbounded, omnidirectionally.

I assume the Big Bang has no place in your system then?

It would seem that you believe Space and Time have always existed and will continue to always exist?

And it is our understanding of this that can be said to be expanding as our knowledge increases?

How do you account for the fact that everywhere we look, we see things moving away from us?

Correct. The schema of the eternal disembodies any hypothetical theoretics such as the big bang. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed; space and time have always existed in the "past" and will continue to in the "future", there is no expansion. It is our knowledge that is ever increasing, it is knowledge that is reincarnated through cultural and social impart: the Family of Humanity on Earth is a generational psuedoexctinction rendered through evolutionary pro-creation.

When you look at me and I walk toward you am I moving away? When an asteroid or a comet comes near, is it moving away? When galaxies collide, are they moving away? When the Andromeda and the Milky Way collide, will they be moving away? When photons from the sun enter the atmosphere of the Earth's environment, are they moving towards or away?

Again, perhaps it is the Human consciousness that is moving further and further away from the big bang, thus we see it reflected in hypothetical postulates. The foundation of your consciousness and its expectations will reflect your data sets and the results extrapolated upon from them.

I don't see things moving away from me every where I look. Everywhere I look I see things moving while I'm moving, and it moves me to look.

And yet whichever galaxy we look at, we find it is moving away from us.

And all galaxies are moving away from us at an increasing, uniform rate, which suggests that at one time they were all a lot closer to each other.

That suggests expansion, which suggests a Big Bang or an act of a Creator, which suggests a beginning.

And dependent on the momentum of the original expansion, there are 3 options.

1 The Universe carries on expanding forever.

2 The Universe reaches an equilibrium and, in effect becomes stationary.

3 The Universe doesn't have enough momentum to overcome the force of gravity and starts to shrink, heading for the Big Crunch.

You would clearly favour option 2?

I detest the data suggesting that galaxies are moving away from one another. We have numerous galactic collisions.

I also oppose the suggestion of a creator as an entity separate from the eternity of space and time that created the eternity of space and time, when this creator in all of its glorious attributes personifies the eternity of space and time, ergo it's unlimited and limited potential, omniscience, omnipresence, etc.; that is a redundant contradiction. 2 eternities can not exist in such the way previously mentioned, there is only room for "one" eternity, and that eternity is not a one, it is a 0 as one is a totality and a whole and eternity is an immeasurable presence.

Positive: Of the three options presented, option 2 best conforms.

Eternity is already at a state of equillibrium and perfection and in effect it is stationary in countless ways. It is always changing, thus it is never changing because it never stops changing. It is the immovable object and the unstoppable force. It is and what is not. It is absent and present by the definitions of such. It is stagnantly perpetual. The only beginning being suggested is of those that are ruled by and cede to the expectations of fear by insecurities through theological monophobic and autophobic suggestions, in essence even going as far as creating national autocracies and monotheistic religions to rule specific areas of land with imaginary borders that which you refer to as countries, and you are so proud of them that you kill for their flags and their names instead of coming together under your eternal connectedness. And so you see, you also put these imaginary borders on the eternity of space and time. It's all in your consciousness and the data extracted from field study based on current expectation derived from deep rooted belief.

[edit on 20-10-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

So we agree on the pettiness and pointlessness of doctrinal religion, it would appear.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the fundamental nature of the Universe.

Respect Dude.

Originally posted by made2fade
And yet whichever galaxy we look at, we find it is moving away from us.

And all galaxies are moving away from us at an increasing, uniform rate, which suggests that at one time they were all a lot closer to each other.

That suggests expansion, which suggests a Big Bang or an act of a Creator, which suggests a beginning.

Thank you, much respect to you as well and thank you for the conversation.

You must not know and clearly see that the above is only a modern form of geocentricity? Geocentricity being the primitive assumption that Earth is the center of the "universe", rather we could now call it in its evolved form galactic-centricity or conscious/conscience-centricity. There is no centricity to eternity; you must surely concede to this fact: anywhere you are is nowhere and everywhere. Only totalities can contain and consist of centers, the eternity of space and time itself has neither. Expectations must be dejected and baseless analysis is the eternal judgement that can and will remain. From the former... all, eternal, and nothing is made known. My accumulated kumtux of this world reveals to me that it is difficult for many of you to drop your every day expectations and your media and eating habits et al. Your illogical politics and corrupt governmental systems keep you in a locked pattern of thoughtless disease; even go as far as to tell you that ignorance is bliss. Ignorance is only bliss to the point that it begins to destroy your biosphere. When you are ignorant your planet is ignorant. You are your planet and your planet is you; a symbiotic living organism.

Nevertheless... in philosophic documental closing: the only data suggesting that galaxies derived from a center point is from theory and hypothesis. Hypo: less than normal; deficient. Thesis: a proposition stated or put forward for consideration.

Doesn't sound like anything I'd want to put my indubitability in... not even my dubiosity. It's nongermane narcissistic religious science with God at its center... or rather the conscience and conscious of Human superimportance.

[edit on 21-10-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]