China Condemns Dalai Lama US Trip

Here's the "proof."

Tibet leader awarded top US medal

Here is the medal itself. You can buy one in bronze if you want to:

www.usmint.gov...

China has gotten used to being the toughest kid on the block in their regional sphere of influence. In that arena, they say yes or no and the smaller asian nations toe the line.

China tries this time and time again all over the world, "if you do this, then we will be very cross with you" (read outraged).

They are learning the same lesson that the U.S. (with Latin America) and Russia (the Baltic states) have had to learn. Being the toughest kid on the block really gains you nothing if you don't make good on your threats, and in most cases you can't.

By the way, most parents learn this lesson early on and fast...don't make threats that you can't or won't back up with action...in the end it costs you credibility.

It is meaningless to provoke China and I can't tell what the purpose of Bush's cmmunication with Dalai Lama is.

China is annoyed with the conspiracy of being split by anyone.

It is ironic that a slaveholder was described as a human rights fighter,
and the government who abolished slavery and liberated all slaves in Tibet
was described as humanity violator
BY USA.

China really needs to beep off. Their arrogance astonishing.

It was China who invaded the sovereign nation of Tibet in 1959. You guys want to complain about us (the US) invading other countries but I never hear anything about China invading Tibet (1959), India (1960s and 70s), Vietnam (1978) and their constant saber rattling against Taiwan.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
China really needs to beep off. Their arrogance astonishing.

It was China who invaded the sovereign nation of Tibet in 1959. You guys want to complain about us (the US) invading other countries but I never hear anything about China invading Tibet (1959), India (1960s and 70s), Vietnam (1978) and their constant saber rattling against Taiwan.

invading?
look at your own map and see whose territory are Tibet and Taiwan within
.

"india and Vietnam" were boundary conflict, if you do some reading
you will know this:-)

[edit on 18-10-2007 by gs001]

Tibet is marked as part of China because the Chinese INVADED Tibet in 1950. Taiwan is a sovereign nation called the Republic of China.

The 1979 war was not a mere "border skirmish", it was an outright invasion and the Chinese gave up because they were shocked that the Vietnamese people fought back and kicked their a--. They only like to fight people who cant fight back and easily submit to their will (ex. running over their own unarmed people with tanks for protesting for democracy).

[edit on 18-10-2007 by ChrisF231]

Originally posted by ChrisF231
Tibet is marked as part of China because the Chinese INVADED Tibet in 1950. Taiwan is a sovereign nation called the Republic of China.

The 1979 war was not a mere "border skirmish", it was an outright invasion and the Chinese gave up because they were shocked that the Vietnamese people fought back and kicked their a--. They only like to fight people who cant fight back and easily submit to their will (ex. running over their own unarmed people with tanks for protesting for democracy).

[edit on 18-10-2007 by ChrisF231]

If I were you I'd like to find the map of qing dynasty and republic of China
and see whose territory are Tibet and Taiwan within at that time.
In Vietnam, Chinese army conquerd every stronghold preventing us from marching
to their capital and then returned, we just want to teach them a lesson.
the same thing happened in India.



[edit on 18-10-2007 by gs001]

Originally posted by gs001

Originally posted by ChrisF231
Tibet is marked as part of China because the Chinese INVADED Tibet in 1950. Taiwan is a sovereign nation called the Republic of China.

The 1979 war was not a mere "border skirmish", it was an outright invasion and the Chinese gave up because they were shocked that the Vietnamese people fought back and kicked their a--. They only like to fight people who cant fight back and easily submit to their will (ex. running over their own unarmed people with tanks for protesting for democracy).

[edit on 18-10-2007 by ChrisF231]

If I were you I'd like to find the map of qing dynasty and republic of China
and see whose territory are Tibet and Taiwan within at that time.
In Vietnam, Chinese army conquerd every stronghold preventing us from marching
to their capital and then returned, we just want to teach them a lesson.
the same thing happened in India.



[edit on 18-10-2007 by gs001]

Teach them a lesson for what? Not submitting to whatever Beijing demands?

What dont the PRC understand? This is about today, not about the Quing Dynasty. This is 2007, not 1911 and Taiwan, India, Vietnam, etc are sovereign nations that wish to rule themselves and not be puppets of Beijing. The PRC needs to stop being a big bully before they get their a--es handed to them when the threaten the wrong nation.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
Teach them a lesson for what? Not submitting to whatever Beijing demands?

What dont the PRC understand? This is about today, not about the Quing Dynasty. This is 2007, not 1911 and Taiwan, India, Vietnam, etc are sovereign nations that wish to rule themselves and not be puppets of Beijing. The PRC needs to stop being a big bully before they get their a--es handed to them when the threaten the wrong nation.

I don't want to waste time teach you the reason why China waged war
with Vietnam and India, you can find the reason anywhere if you want.
Seeing the map of Quing Dynasty and republic of China will help you
understanding that Tibet and Taiwan were parts of China long long ago,
people's republic of China just inherited those territories from them.
understand?

reply to post by gs001


That argument holds about as much water as it does in the middle east...you cannot go back in time and strip sovereign nations of territory based simply on thousand year old maps...sorry!

Originally posted by deadbang
reply to post by gs001

 

That argument holds about as much water as it does in the middle east...you cannot go back in time and strip sovereign nations of territory based simply on thousand year old maps...sorry!

Tibet has been a part of China for several hundreds of years,
and it will be a part of China for ever.
basing on this will be enough.
I know someone in west hate China so much, and leave no means untried
to weaken, split, demonize China for several decades ,
but it seems to be infructuous, you failed to prevent China from being
stronger and stronger. the only effect of your "effort" is to let
more and more Chinese detest you.

Do you know what Dalai Lama and his regime did to Tibetan?
they treated Tibetan people as animal, they have the right
to jail, torture and slay any Tibetan.



Do you know what is this? that is the peeled skin of their slaves,

In 1959, when China decided to abolish slavery in Tibet and
distributed field to liberated slaves, Dalai Lama and his regime
found their interest harmed and then launched armed rebel.
then failed and fleed to India.
that is the background of your "Congressional Gold Medal" gainer

The history of Tibet is shrouded in the fog of time and few evidences of originale sources.

What is generally agreed upon however, is a Tibetan empire existed in the 7th and 8th century A.D. It had contacts with the Arabs expanding into Central Asia, as well as the Turks there. The Monguls expanding changed it all. In 1246 Tibet surrendered to Kublai Kahn. He later build Beijing and made it his capital. That's the historical fact the Chinese build their argument of sovereignty on.

To me that is to say, that most of Central Europe, part of the British Isles and all of the Mediteranian countries belong to Italy - qua the Roman empire.

Tibet must be counted as a sovereign nation with a coherrant culture, despite the lack of written sources to submit the claim. The few there are have been corrupted or written out by the aggressors.


To add: Well gs0001, impressive pictures you post. But they have nothing to do with the sovereignty of Tibet.
And don't you think similar images could be found from a few South American nations, instaled, upheld or supported by Washington?
Let's stick to historic facts in the context discussed here: Can Tibet be claimed a sovereign nation.

reply to post by khunmoon


Tibet formally became a part of China in qing dynasty, around 1720.
When Chinese central government sent governor to Tibet, and the local leader-dalai and banchan must get certificate from Chinese central government before they took power.
BTW, I'm curious why a country who robbed territory from American Indian and massacre most of them is so interested in other's territory issue?



[edit on 19-10-2007 by gs001]

Hej gs001,
I read about that reading up on Tibetan history, and a Gurkha invasion made the Tibetans call the Chinese 1788. They had been in Tibet 1720-23 expelling the Mongols, but left by their own choice. In 1788 they stayed however and put in administrators, which they had a hard time controlling.

From Wiki:

In 1792, the emperor issued a 29-point decree which appeared to tighten Chinese control over Tibet. It strengthened the powers of the ambans, who were in theory put on a par with the Dalai and Panchen Lamas and given authority over financial, diplomatic and trade affairs. It also outlined a new method to select both the Dalai and Panchen Lama by means of a lottery administered by the ambans in Lhasa. In this lottery the names of the competing candidates were written on folded slips of paper which were placed in a golden urn.[44] The tenth, eleventh and twelfth Dalai Lamas were selected by the golden urn method.[45] The ninth, thirteen, and fourteenth Dalai Lamas, however, were selected by the previous incarnation's entourage, or labrang, with the selection being approved after the fact by Beijing.

The British forced the Tibetans to withdraw from Nepal. In the 19th century, the power of the Qing government declined. As Chinese soldiers posted to Lhasa began to neglect their military duties, the ambans lost influence. After the invasion of Tibet by General Zorawar Singh wars were fought with the Indian Kingdom of Jammu and were concluded with peace treaties at Ladakh in 1841 with Maharaja Gulab Singh.[46] and Nepal in 1856[47] without the involvement of Beijing. According to Chinese source, Nepal was a tributary state to China from 1788 to 1908.[48] Chinese government claimed that in the 1856 treaty, both Nepal and Tibet claimed allegiance to China.

Notice the wording 'claimed'. These treaties have been kept secret to public, and I'm not sure they ever have been eyed by a modern historian. Further more originals are probably lost.

That the lottery method haven't been used since 1857 for the 12th Dalai Lama indicates los of control, so I still have a hard time to see a hundred years later their claim is valid.


[edit on 19/10/07 by khunmoon]

reply to post by khunmoon

I'm not a historian, so the details of Tibet history is too hard for me.
But all evidence show that Tibet definitely belongs to China.
In April this year, I visited Lhasa, capital of Tibet.
show you a group of pictures of Tibetan people.






What can you see from these pictures?
(Be notice of the difference between old generation and young generation)
Maybe Dalai Lama can contral the mind of believers in old generation of
Tibetan by religion,
But more and more young Tibetan choose to live a modern life.
and Dalai Lama's influence amid them will become weaker and weaker,
Some China-hater who want to use Dalai Lama as a weapon to split China
will be disappointed:-)


[edit on 19-10-2007 by gs001]

Originally posted by gs001

What can you see from these pictures?
(Be notice of the difference between old generation and young generation)
Maybe Dalai Lama can contral the mind of believers in old generation of
Tibetan by religion,
But more and more young Tibetan choose to live a modern life.
and Dalai Lama's influence amid them will become weaker and weaker,



[edit on 19-10-2007 by gs001]

I guess you think that is "good news."

reply to post by gs001


Great pics, but of the people in them who's features clearly shows, I only see two or three Tibetans. You do know that 30-35% of the population today in Lasha are Chinese. Being there recently and you probably had a good trip I better understand your prejudice. The info you bring here is what you was told by your (Chinese) guide, right?

You get the horror pics from them too? Of those I recognise the first one from one of Alexandra David-Neel's books. Yes, when I was a teen I used to read any book on Tibet I could get my hands on. Beside her books I've read Charles Bell, Henrich Harre, Lobsang Rampa and of course W. Y. Evans-Wentz rendition of Bardo Thodol, The Tibetan Book on Death. So though I've never been inside Tibet myself, I do know a little about it. But the 'peeling of skin' I've never heard about. I've heard about the practise of chopping dead bodies and place them on hilltops for vultures to devour (the air of Tibet is practically germ free, so bodies don't decompose and firewood is scarce).

You do know that the Chinese in their annextion of Tibet killed 100s of thousands of monks, destroyed 6500 (the recognized number) monestaries, maybe double that, and that there still is an Tibetan insurgency with daily episodes of fire. Refugees are still crossing into Nepal and India and episodes of Chinese troops shooting at them is occasionly witnessed by mounteneers.

I hope you also know within China itself, riots daily occur followed by immediate and mercyless repression from authoreties, and that these uprisings often are a reaction to living condition almost solely of enviromental kind. There's hardly a living river left in China, you know. These instances of civil disorder are seldom reported simply because their are no Westerns there to witness, but words do get out.

The price of 'a modern life' comes at a cost out of proportion, and I definately don't think the young people in your pictures will get happier in terms of peace of mind, than their ancestors were - though they might have been serfs.

Finally let me say the Tibetans I have met in Northern India were among the most joyfull people I've ever met - despite they were refuges.