Remember Me - A Soldier's Plea!

Does anyone else feel ATSMix has taken on a considerable "pro military" stance lately ?

Or is it purely my imagination ?

I'm happy to accept advice from either side of the flip...

But IMO, the last addition by Dave was destined to polarise people right from the start...

Hardly a positive thing to do by one of ATS's shining lights whom I have respected greatly until this post...

I mean, Dave...Don't honestly tell me you had no idea this would polarise people and cause the bun fight it has ?

If you didn't see that coming, then I don't know what to say...

However, if you did, like most would, then why on earth post this kinda stuff as an ATSMix...

Why not post it in a military forum either here, or offsite...

To my mind, you made an error of judgment in posting same the way you did because it has done more harm than good to the community here...

I hope you exercise better judgment with future ATSMixs's...


Peace

reply to post by Rilence


You obviously haven't studied my military history or that of Radio First Termer. There is a huge difference in being PRO MILITARY and PRO SOLDIER. The military officers and gentlemen operate under a guise of Washington DC, which I totally think is polarized and doesn't give a damn about the troop in the field. The GI is a faceless number in a sea of others just as nameless. Like Vietnam, BODY COUNTS were used to show the MILITARY SUCCESS aka WASHINGTON DC mentality. Unfortunately, there were 58,226 Americans and their Allies as well as over 1,800 who were MIA / POW.

Having been in their shoes.... I respect the soldier. But NEVER assume that I have ever respected the MILITARY or WASHINGTON DC. Neither has ever impressed me that they give a crap about the common soldier. Hope that clarifies.

Now, I will continue to try and get responses from our elite membership about assorted topics from time to time, because that is the MISSION we were given months ago by The Three Amigos. If this offends you, take it up with them. Johnny and I are just soldiers in the bigger picture.

Thanks for your comments.

Dave

[edit on 10/15/2007 by Dave Rabbit]

I know I said I had posted my last post in this thread but I was bored and decided to see where it was going.
It seems it goes a little like this.

Pro - Post that is in favour
Pro - agrees
Against - Post that disagrees
Pro - Insulting comments that try to say that those against know nothing
Against - Post that provides a little bit of straight talking against
Pro - STOP, this thread isnt about that, yadayada insult for having an apposing view.
Pro - yeh, i was in the army and *commence self indulgent tripe*
Against - All I am saying is ...
Pro - REMEMBER THIS THREAD ISNT ABOUT THAT!!
Pro - continue to insult those against
Pro - My mothers dads uncles sons best friends wifes nephew was killed in Iraq, *commence story and finish with insult*
against - I .. hmm, how can I say this carefully I disa....
Pro - Rulllleeesss reminder.

and loop.

It doesnt matter what excuse their is, when you join the army you are expected to kill or be killed, be away from your family, suffer some horific scenes and memories for the rest of your life IF you make it out alive.
So with this in mind why sign up then complain.
Im tired of being told by some rambo wannabe 'im a hero' I dont want you to protect me you knucklehead, its not a war its just extermination where you lose a couple of your own and cry because they didnt just roll over and allow you to trample them into the mud.
Dont start what you cant handle, Its all about arrogant bragging rights, How quickly you would choose to opt out if it was someone considered an equal match.
Shut up, do your job that you wanted to do and when its over keep your exagerated rambo stories to yourself.
Stop helping the regime bully the world into submittion.
If I enter a strangers house and get kicked in the nuts would you sympathise with me.

reply to post by eagle32



No one is saying you have to be pro-military, or pro-administration in order to be pro-soldier. Has that not sunk in yet?

I don't like the war, I'm sure as hell not a fan of the current administration, but I am pro-soldier. Those soldiers are our brothers, sisters, friends, parents, our neighbors, and people we'll never meet this side of heaven. I did not serve in the military because of a number of factors, all of my family have to some degree or another, many of my friends have.

No, most people who've seen combat don't talk about it, they tend to reminisce about the friends they made, the parties, everything except the combat. The ones who served in the background though are no less a soldier than the frontline rifleman. So what if they say they want to be remembered, it's becoming quite apparant that some here need that reminder.

“My mother said to me, "If you are a soldier, you will become a general. If you are a monk, you will become the Pope." Instead, I was a painter, and became Picasso.” Pablo Picasso.

In short.. If you're in it just to be remembered.. take up painting

Here is a gentle reminder...

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier who salutes the flag, serves under the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.
Father D. E. O'Brien.

As I said, a reminder of just who it is that truly defends the freedoms we hold so dear, and near to our hearts.

Not just American soldiers, but Canadian, British, French, German, and oh so many more. They are the guardians of what we practise here. We need to remember that...and if a soldier wants to remind us of that...well he is more than welcome to for all of me.

[edit on 15-10-2007 by seagull]

reply to post by seagull


Without soldiers there would be no wars.
No need for 'freedom to_____" fill in blank.

"If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one of them would remain in the army." Frederick the Great.

Utmost respect goes out to drafted combatants,
Extreme reservations go out to 'career' soldiers though.

Just keep them safe and alive.

i prefer the DOug Stanhope approach.

I will support the troops on a troop by troop basis. That means, the kid that joined the army to defend his country and earn money for college - I'll support him.

The kid that joined because he wanted to kill people legally, and he's a complete asshole that now gets a gun... I don't support that troop - and when I was in the military, there were plenty of them to go around.

reply to post by scientist


I've no problem with that...since the latter are undoubtably in the minority.

All I have ever wanted in this thread, is for people to realize that those kids out there aren't the policy makers or the kingpins. All the vast majority out there are doing is serving as best they know how. They aren't in it for glory, or women/men, or loot, they're trying to help us sleep secure at night.

Condemn the actions of the few who deserve it, I certainly do, but don't paint all of them with that same brush.

reply to post by AGENT_T


You don't honestly believe that do you? No soldiers, no wars? There will always be conflict; conflict over resources, conflict over ideology, conflict over most any reason man can come up with. There will always be a need for soldiers.

Seriously, it would be nice if they weren't necessary. In a perfect world they wouldn't be necessary, but this ain't that world, I am most sorry to say. If it were, my brother wouldn't be over in Iraq right now, we'd be fishing instead.

Originally posted by seagull
No, most people who've seen combat don't talk about it, they tend to reminisce about the friends they made, the parties, everything except the combat. The ones who served in the background though are no less a soldier than the frontline rifleman. So what if they say they want to be remembered, it's becoming quite apparant that some here need that reminder.

All that was fine up until " it's becoming quite apparant that some here need that reminder"
Thats the part I dont like, I dont want force fed stories, I dont want reminding, that is my freedom to persue the stories thats my freedom my grandparents fought for.
I dont sympathise for someone doing what they chose to do, it doesnt matter how you dress it up.
I appreciate those soldiers that sign up (i dont care what the reason), do the job they knew they had to do because they thought long and hard about the consequences in all aspects.
I also appreciate that they do it for themself and a cause beyond a reason to brag, patronise, exagerate and lie.
I dont want to hear from some GI Joe who served burgers for 3 months that I owe them anything.
I also dont see it as defending my freedom, I see it as people who saw a chance to plow bullets into a weak opponent and be part of a movement to gain bragging rights.
Once they start fighting back then tough, thats part of the job.
If you cry because you miss your wife and kid then maybe joining the army wasnt the best idea.
It baffles me, I dont care what the excuse for joining the army, I'd rather be at home for my wife and kids than playing soldier.
If I was single, lived somewhere worth defending, was defending attacks from invaders, felt it was worth the risk, wasnt in it for bragging rights, wasnt just being cannon fodder for a war based on greed and power based on lies and a corrupt government then and only then I would join the army.

Originally posted by seagull
They are from countries like the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Italy, and dozens of other countries. In short they are us. To disrespect them is to disrespect us. They are where they are for the noblest of reasons....

Excuse moi... the noblest of reasons?? Corporate greed!

Kinda funny you should mention Italy. Italy redrew because one of their special agents was accidentally killed by friendly fire after a successful rescue mission of an Italian journalist.

They are still friends, US and Italy, but a trial was held in Rome in absentia of the marine who happened to fire a bullet through the agents head.
edition.cnn.com...

Sgrena, an anti-war journalist, had just been freed by kidnappers after a month in captivity and was being escorted by Italian security agents to safety.

Calipari threw his body across Sgrena when U.S. troops opened fire, she said.

No my friend, many of the countries who was lured into the coalition has since redrawn from this illegal war. Here's a list.

www.globalsecurity.org...

Nicaragua __________ 0 Withdrew troops: Feb. 2004
Spain _ ____________ 0 Withdrew troops: Late-Apr. 2004
Dominican Republic __ 0 Withdrew troops: Early-May. 2004
Honduras __________ 0 Withdrew troops: Late-May. 2004
Philippines _________ 0 Withdrew troops: mid-Jul. 2004
Thailand __ ________ 0 Withdrew troops: Late-Aug. 2004
New Zealand _______ 0 Withdrew troops: Late-Sep. 2004
Tonga __ __________ 0 Withdrew troops: mid-Dec. 2004
Portugal _ _________ 0 Withdrew troops: mid-Feb. 2005
Singapore _________ 0 Withdrew troops: Mar. 2005
Norway ___________ 0 Withdrew troops: Oct. 2005
Ukraine ___________ 0 Withdrew troops: Dec. 2005
The Netherlands ____ 0 Withdrew troops: Mar. 2005
Japan _ ___________ 0 Withdrew troops: Jul. 2006
Italy _ ____________ 0 Withdrawal troops: End of Nov. 2006
Slovakia __________ 0 Withdrew troops: End of January 2007
Denmark _ ________ 0 Withdrew troops: Aug. 2007

Who's in now you can see on th site. For that list I would like to suply a rather humorous one.

Originally posted by ServoHahn in www.abovetopsecret.com...&mem=ServoHahn
Azerbaijan. Who? They have oil.
Bulgaria! How could we lose?
Columbia! I thought we were still at war with them?
Czech Republic... enjoying their new position in NATO by now.
Denmark- I got really stoned in Denmark once.
El Salvador! Who was the last El Salvadorian to be taken hostage in Iraq? I bet it was that guy who faked the golden ticket in Willy Wonka.
Eritrea- That's not a country, that's a bad scrabble hand.
Estonia- Nazis to save the day!
Etheopia- We'll make a human shield out of staving children! Brilliant!
Georgia- I've been to Atlanta but somehow I don't think this is the same place.
Hungary... I have nothing to say to you Hungary other than: You should be ashamed of yourself!
Japan- I bet most of THEM don't know that... shhh.
South Korea- Ok, but they owed us one anyway.
Latvia- More Nazis!
Lithuania- ""
Macedonia- Again, not a geography whizz, but I'll take your word for it.
Netherlands- I got REALLY high here... twice!
Nicaragua- I just LOVE central America... the countries are SO small and cute!
Philippines- Yeah, but I heard that it was to help them recruit more al Qaeda members)
Poland- You're all going to hell. I heard the pope say the war was wrong with my very own good ear.
Palau- I, uh... hang on. Ok, I found you... Ok, guys pull out a globe and a magnifying glass. These guys are a group of North Pacific Islands with a combined population of less than 20,000.

And then, we have the support of some great countries who never sent anyone to fight in Iraq (due to lack of military), last but not least Iceland, Costa Rica, the Marshall and Solomon Islands and Micronesia!

My personal opinion and how I feel about war and soldiers, there are written thousands of songs about.
One is Buffy St Marie's Universal Soldier

He's the universal soldier,
and he really is to blame,
his orders come from far away, no more,
they come from here and there,
and you and me and brothers,
can't you see,
this is not the way we put the end to war

My favourite, Bob Dylan's John Brown

Oh, and I thought when I was there, God, what am I doing here?
I'm a-tryin' to kill somebody or die tryin'.
But the thing that scared me most was when my enemy came close
And I saw that his face looked just like mine

Hold on just a minute here. Thats what they signed up for. They knew that if they joined the army there would be a damned good chance they were going to have to leave everything theyve known and loved and to be sent overseas to kill people. They knew that. f they didnt want that then they shouldnt have signed on the dotted line. No one forced them so please stop with the sentimental claptrap.

Hold on just a minute here. Thats not what they signed up for. They did not join the army to be serve in YOUR name, to only be rideculed by unsupporting people at home.

reply to post by Dave Rabbit


Some how I missed this particular post...

Should you have a chance in the future to put this topic on ATS Mix, I'd be more than happy to "voice" my opinion, rather than write it.

What many here forget, is that many of these bright, brave, men and women signed up after 9/11 happened. They did so, so YOU wouldnt have to. All conspiracys aside that surround the actual invents on that fateful day in september, (I dont believe them anyways) they signed up to fight four their countrys fallen, and for their country itself. They did so with the very best intentions at heart. Not to kill kill kill. but to protect. Shame on you all for losing touch with reality. Your bigoted, selfish, anti american views has severely clouded your misguided judgment on the actual issue.





[edit on 18-10-2007 by West Coast]

[edit on 18-10-2007 by West Coast]

First of all thanks to West Coast for your post.

I just got finished talking to my little brother who is currently serving in Iraq. It is the first time I've spoken to him since he left last month it felt good to hear his voice and know that he is okay. I'm so proud of him and his service to this country. You don't have to approve of this administration but that is entirely different from supporting the troops and thier famiies.

Those men and women are over their serving; they aren't complaining and whining they are just going about their jobs. My brother didn't join to kill, kill, kill as some on this thread have suggested; he joined because he believed in this country and it's ideals. He like the vast majority of our soldier, sailors and marines serve because of the the great love not only for thier country but for their families and friends. They are representative of us; they are our spouses, brothers, sisters, friends and loved ones. They are us.

Those men and women who serve have my love and my prayers for their safe return. I also pray for the families who they love and miss and who love and miss their loved ones. It is so hard to wait and wonder if he's okay and the joy that you feel when you answer the phone and they are on the other end or the joy felt when you go to the mail box and there is a long awaited letter and you know they are okay. When you watch the news and you see there was an attack and there are causalties you pray and pray hard for the people who died and not just the American troops but indeed all of them. Then for days after you see that on the news you jump when you hear a car stop in front of your house; you look out praying that you don't see uniformed Army officers approaching your house. Then you calm down until the next time you see an attack on the news.

Critize the government all you want; you have that right. But, while you do remember that you have that right because lots of good men and women believed you should have it and died for it.

Pretty good video.

But what's the point?
We all know they are humans, they have families, emotions etc.

Does that really change anything?

I feel for the soldiers out there, I know they are humans.

But this does not mean I should support them. No offence, I've heard it all, they die for us etc etc. Well no they didn't, I didn't ask them to do it. They are not dying for their countries or us, the war has nothing to do with our countries. They are not dying for us, they are dying for goverment gains.

If one feels the war in Iraq is wrong, why SHOULD we support them?
Yes the goverment are the ones giving orders, but the soldiers MAKE the war, without them the goverment could not have wars, you can't say oh blame the goverment but not the soldier, the soldiers are the biggest part of it!

I always see people get upset or shocked if you don't automatically support the troops, simply for being a soldier? It's not that simple, it's not that easy to gain respect, you have to earn it by doing what is RIGHT.

Being a soldier does NOT mean people should automatically respect you.

To gain respect a soldier has to fight for what is RIGHT, to serve and protect their country, the people etc.

The war in Iraq, has nothing to do with serving and protecting the USA or UK etc. If the war in iraq is wrong, then the soldiers should DO WHAT IS RIGHT, AND STOP!!!

That would gain my respect. Fight for what is right, the war in iraq in my opinion is not right.



[edit on 12-6-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by khunmoon


Nice post.

You have my respect.

[edit on 12-6-2008 by _Phoenix_]