Remember Me - A Soldier's Plea!

What a difference a site makes. I posted this same thing on Military.Com, which is my Official Military Home for threads there. I put it up in the major branch threads and have received some amazing stories there. Some of the most memorable are the ones of soldiers who are at the military funerals. Here is just ONE of the numerous responses from MILITARY MEN and WOMEN:

Hey Dave;

My father was a C-141 crew chief who constantly flew as MEGP and got to escort many of those same caskets you mention back to Travis. His brother was in Da Nang loading ordnance on Phantoms, and their Uncle was up flying Sandies and dumping smoke on soon to be holes in the ground. I heard my fair share about how YOUR war went down...home AND abroad.

your signature line is perfect, and it inspired another pissed off thought stuffed away in my head, so off on another tangent I go......

I echo your signature line statement WHOLEheartedly. I tell many people this same thing when the talk turns political because of my high and tight haircut...(and I live in the San Francisco/Oakland/Berkeley region, so you can just GUESS how often I get in THESE arguments)...I try to impress upon the young and idealistic students, who think they know EVERY STINKIN' THING already, that the Soldier and the policy are NOT married at the hip. That the Soldier is likely not that far off in opinion from the critic in many ways...That the Soldier is doing his JOB, and when the elected leader he works for changes, the Soldier's job changes. This is not the Soldier's call. The Soldier gets EXACTLY the same say in it as the critic...and he exercises that say in a voting booth, or on an absentee ballot card...just same as ANY other United States Citizen.

You can lay down across the road by the thousands at the Capitol Mall in protest/civil disobedience in order to effect change on an ineffective policy, and I will support your right to do it with my last dying breath. You can stop traffic in the entire city of San Francisco, as was done after the invasion of Baghdad (I know...I was IN the City when it happened). You can stand on a busy street corner with images of dead and wounded civilians from the war-zone, and express at the TOP OF YOUR LUNGS your distaste for the policies of your nation.

I will support and defend your right to say and do ALL of that. Right, wrong, or indifferent.

But you'd better remember WHY you get to do that stuff here. Why your head isn't cracked open on the curb when you tell your government that you think it is making bad choices. Why your family isn't persecuted...why your belongings aren't seized...why you don't get sent on a train to a "camp" somewhere in the middle of the night.

Just ask the people in Burma how that protest stuff is working out for them. See if THEY got any policies changed recently. (I refuse to call it Myanmar...until they pull their collective heads out of their ********s).

See, the Burmese folks don't have hundreds of thousands of AMERICAN Soldiers watching their backs every night, now do they? Nor do the Chinese, the Iranians, the Cubans (see a pattern here?).

The American Soldier isn't going to follow orders to massacre people, or beat them to death en masse, for simply expressing their dislike of a policy in public. Our Soldiers went to school, and learned things about Tea Parties in Boston...they KNOW who and WHAT they are, and WHY they are who and what they are.

The elected leaders here KNOW that the US troops are not going to follow orders of that nature against the US people in order to bolster their 'regime', and as such, those type military orders to control the populace simply AREN'T an option here...they flat out can't be given...we CAN NOT have a Castro or a Hussein erupt over here.

US troops are US citizens first, by and large, and they simply won't have that.

So you can hate the politician...you can hate the policy...you can HATE the war and it's suffering, pain and death. But you CAN'T hate the Soldier, because the Soldier most likely hates a lot of that stuff JUST AS MUCH as you do...but he's got an elected leader for a boss, so he does his job...with pride, honor, and hopefully dignity in duty and/or in death to further such duty, if necessary.

It's a suck role to be in at times, but that's part of the job description. It ain't all a V-J day ticker tape parade...but at least at the end of the day, all political posturing and bickering aside, we ALL live in America...and NOBODY gets to come over here and tell us how we should do it. Not even the biggest, most outspoken critic of the military has ever had an Islamic Cleric, or a wild dictator, or a genocidal maniac come over HERE and MAKE them do $h!t.

Find me someone on the 'fairytale land' of the UC Berkeley campus who was ever ordered at gunpoint, HERE IN THE STATES, by the "authorities" to report to a "re-education" camp, or to cover their head in public because the 'book of God' commands it to be so.

That's 'cause there's an American Soldier out there, somewhere, that won't LET anyone else come over here and MAKE you do anything. Never have, and never will. Not while I'm still alive and kicking, anyway.

So Dave...that's how I feel about it. You guys and your peers in uniform from MY family got a raw deal. You are ABSOLUTELY right in saying that we have to do everything in our power to make sure the US Soldier NEVER gets crapped on like that again...EVER.

I feel confident that all the political bickering and debates aside, overall, the US people are treating the returning troops as they should be treated.

I can say that even though I get plenty of static here in the East Bay "Liberalpaloozaland" that I live in, that AT LEAST when my battle buddy and I returned home from the sandbox in our Desert Combat Uniform in Dec of 2005, to San Francisco Int. Airport, that I got as many handshakes, hugs from strangers (no less than 5 of those), and honest "welcome home Soldier" greetings in THAT place as I did coming through Dallas on R&R.

So...Even the folks from The People's Republic of San Francisco were American enough at that critical moment to do what EVERY American should do for their Soldier. Because troops don't belong to "-DubYa-"...troops belong to all of us.

That's what ALL of you guys deserved, too. I'm sorry it didn't happen, but I hope you can take some comfort in the fact that, due in large part to YOUR generation's heroes, it is being done today better than it was done in your yesterday.

I'll shut up now.

Dave you have to bear in mind a couple of things in the context of this topic . The first is that the highly charged partisan atmosphere that involves debates over who supports the troops and making political games of the war dead is helping to kill the US from the inside.

The second thing I ask you and other members to bear in mind is that such an environment doesn't exist in other countries . This was demonstrated recently when Helen Clark visited the graves of Lieutenant-General Freyberg and his wife. See this thread for more related info.

I have mixed emotions about that video. Most of us could support its sentiment had our countries still adhered to the principle of a just war, that war should always be the last resort when all else had failed and should be used only in those few circumstances when our country or treaty partners were subject to attack. But some of us look at current events and seriously question whether the war in Iraq can be considered a just war at all. I don't think it can. And I didn't think it could.

It poses questions too, about our dead & what they died for. And how we should regard troops coming home, some terribly injured both physically and mentally.

I fear our dead in that particular conflict have died in vain. No-one wants to hear that. No family wants to hear that their Son died for nothing. It's too cruel to tell them that, even though most of us deep within ourselves know it to be true. It's an unpalatable, unspoken truth. Perhaps too it needs to remain unspoken, as it did during this point in the Vietnam war. We can all speak about The Glorious Dead and twist their sacrifice to suit the mood of the moment. But how many of your family members, who gave their all, now lie forgotten in some foreign field ? Or are perhaps only remembered at all because of a few yellowing photographs in the family album ?

Our guys have died in Iraq because of blatant lies told by our political leaders in order to justify war. Our brave soldiers and airmen, on whom we all rely to protect our freedoms, have died not to uphold that ideal but in furtherance of a corrupt powerplay in the Middle East. Their love of their country, their desire to lay down some of their own liberties in order to protect ours, has been abused in the most shameful fashion by the people we elected into high office.

I knew a guy who fought in a just war. He died a few years ago. A neighbour, a friendly old soul, always out in all weathers walking his dog, chatting to passers by and enjoying his life as best he could. He lost his arm 2 weeks after his squad helped liberate the death camp at Belsen. He came back to unemployment, debt, lost his home & his marriage broke up. He never quite recovered from that.

We can't allow our guys to come back to that, no matter what we might think about current events. We can't forget about those guys of ours, brave guys, who have suffered because of a war prosecuted in our name. No matter what your politics might be, we have to give them every help & support that we possibly can. That means providing them with free medical treatment for their injuries for their whole lifetime, freely and generously giving them whatever help they might need as they rehabilitate into civilian life again, free education & training to enable them to get into work, providing them with supported housing if they need it & pensions to make their lives more comfortable.

We can't make the same mistakes that were made after Vietnam or any of the other unjust wars we've allowed our countries to slip slide into. We can't just forget about them when they need us the most. We can't allow politicians to cut back on hospital care or veterans pensions or any other military rehabilition programmes to satisfy the ever present electoral need for reduced taxation, whilst at the same time these self same politicians feast themselves on Old Glory or the Union Jack in order to win a few extra votes.

But our lasting testament to our fallen is that we should always learn from past mistakes. That war should always be the final, absolute & last resort to be employed for our protection when all else has totally failed.

[edit on 14-10-2007 by Niall197]

Friendly reminder, folks -- please discusss the issue respectfully.

Lets see.... why did I join...

KILL KILL KILL..... nope.

ATTACK .... nope.

INVADE..... nope.


I joined to try to make a better life for myself. I lived in a small town where good jobs were alerady taken by men and women who had held them for a while and were not leaving anytime soon.

I couldn't affortd college and didn't have the grades for assistance.

I decided that I wanted to be somebody. I wanted discipline in my life. I wanted to earn some money and try to save it, learn a skill and maybe see some of this beautiful world while doing it.

Even though my military career was cut short for medical reasons, I signed up, I went and I tried. Had the call come to go to war, I would have went. Not because I WANTED to kill, but because it was my duty to follow the orders given to me.

I don't want to see anyone die, ever, but it happens.

There will always be war.

I wish there wasn't war, but when the call comes. may it come swiftly and be over even more quickly.

To the men and women who have come forward in this thread sharing thier military stories / backgrounds, I stand up and "salute" you. Thank You. I wish I could shake your hand and look you in the eye and say Thank You.

To the men and women serving / fighting today, I say God bless you, I pray for your safetly each and every day and pray for your safe return home.

one last thought....

I'll bet that less that 1% of men and women who join the Military in ANY country do so thinking, "oh, I'll get to kill someone". It's probably less that 1%.



[edit on 14-10-2007 by elevatedone]

Originally posted by elevatedone

To the men and women who have come forward in this thread sharing thier military stories / backgrounds, I stand up and "salute" you. Thank You. I wish I could shake your hand and look you in the eye and say Thank You.

To the men and women serving / fighting today, I say God bless you, I pray for your safetly each and every day and pray for your safe return home.

And to all those brave men and women who refused to become pawns of the state and take up arms against their fellow men and were shot as traitors. I salute YOU. You will be remembered.

reply to post by Chorlton



That was very disrespectful to this entire thread.

Seldom have I seen so many value-laden words meaning so little. I would call it propaganda, which I thought wasn't allowed according to the T&C, but Majic said it wasn't s debate thread, so it must be some kind of agitation glorifying war, cause troops=war, the one depending on the other.

To answer the OP: NO, I don't support either, I hate violence, I hate war, so any soldier have my disgust.

I was born in the wake of WW2, my childhood is filled with memories of ruins and RC convoys, beside the stories, pictures and later the B/W footage on the telly of the destruction and horrors, to a degree I had nightmares about it. No, I hate war, and I'm grateful I haven't experienced it on my own body. All my life I have actively participated in anti-war activeties, to prevent a much worser one, than the one I was taught about and had nightmares about. Fear don't have a grip in me like it used to, I'm getting older and personally I don't have that much to lose anymore.

However the mentality displayed in a thread like this makes me fear for our children and generation to come.

Folks, don't you see, you're manipulated, yes, excuse my wording, brainwashed, to be the willing idiots of a cynical elite of gangsters, who gives a # about all the fine and wellmeant values you are queing up to write here. They laugh at them -remember, your constitution "is just a piece of paper"- they spin you into some Pavlovian dogs manipulated for there selfish gains.

Hate met with hate makes war. Hate met with love makes it cease. And if it ever should happen, love met with love creates unity.

Let me finish with a reminder of Chorlton's Lennon quote, "what if they had a war and nobody came?"

Yes, imagine................. "I hope some day you'll join us, and the world will be as one."

Well, even though a few have turned this into a personal battle, I knew going in that it was going to be controversial.... but, as they say, "Controversy Makes GREAT RADIO".

Those of you that have all of this passion, I hope you will put your SPOKEN WORDS where your TYPE IS!

I want to see a lot more opinions from other members than simply a few playing

"Battle Of The Stars".

IF this thread gets some serious contributions from the masses, I will try and convince our Executive Producer to put an ATS MIX Show on this subject in the programming schedule.

Let's Hear From Those Who Have REMAINED SILENT!

[edit on 10/14/2007 by Dave Rabbit]

The concept of you dont have to support war but you can support the troops is a totally rediculous and a idealistic notion. That on the one hand you have the human side of combatants that need our support yes they may need it but what do you tell them, were all rooting for you and your doing a dam fine job and your in our thoughts all the time.

But dose that not support the war, by supporting and keeping up the moral of your troops provides them with the needs to continue the fight does it not. This is not a fight for liberty and freedom but a fight for gain and power, these comabents are victims of a corrupt system who signed their names in good faith to protect their countries and their peoples not to wage war on innocents.

But they are not doing that are they, no they are cannon fodder fed into the mincing machine for the few, fed into it by those who lie and deceive by those who dont give a dam about casulties combatent or otherwise.

Yes its a moving video, but we all all lost loved ones to war and the saddest thing about this video is that no of this needed to happen. If you wish to wage war then one has to accept the cost of that choice, you support your troops actions therefore you support the war, one cannot have it both ways.

You either tell them what they are doing is wrong, that they are doing the bidding of a corrupt regime or you support it, there is no middle ground here just emotional rather than logical thought.

Let's Hear From Those Who Have REMAINED SILENT!

As YOU can imagine Dave, it is difficult to respond to such ridiculous comments made without thought as to why they can be made at all...

Sometimes it is best to ignore ignorance as opposed to denying it....

No matter what the detractors say, it is a FACT that they are able to say such drivel, on a free internet, in a free society because of those brave men and women they so easily detest...

They will of course come out and speak on this, that is their way, to talk without action....

Having BEEN there and DONE that, it is also a FACT that the men and women and children that are now free in Iraq, have a completely different attitude about the soldiers; one more attuned to real life as they are not living in their mommies basement. I know I have spoken with them on numerous occasions...

It is all about perspective and if anyone wants a good quote, here is one..

""What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly."
-- Thomas Paine

Here is another

"It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it.
- General Douglas MacArthur"

And More

"The ancient Roman expression "if you want peace prepare for war"
is from "Epitoma Rei Militaris," by Vegetius."

"The purpose of all war is ultimately peace.
- Saint Augustine"

"It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter.
Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace--but there is no
peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale
that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears
the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are
already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What
is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have?
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be
purchased at the price of chains and slavery?
Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course
others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or
give me death! "

- Patrick Henry

And NOW, as far as this thread is concerned, my personal favorite..

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.
The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling
which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
nothing which is more important than his own personal safety,
is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free
unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

--John Stuart Mill

Semper

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

"A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny." Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

"War is only a cowardly escape from the problems of peace." Thomas Mann

It is much easier to fight than it is to examine why it is we do so.
Sorry I don't feel inclined whatsoever to support troops who freely go into another country and fight for something it seems the minority of us believe in.

Just bring them back home where they can prepare for the next justifiable conflict.
THAT surely must be the best way to support them.

Originally posted by Byrd
Friendly reminder, folks -- please discusss the issue respectfully.

You and the other moderators must have known that when this thread was started the so called "conservatives " and "Liberals" are the lunatics who have been running the asylum for a long time . As far as I am concerned they deserve each other and expect for a minority that I have gotten to know via ATS none are welcome on my doorstep.

If I ever needed a reminder about what this thread should be about it I got it when I heard the recording of The Last Past. Anyway I think that is about me done on this thread.

Do I think war is good? No.
Do I think THIS war is good? No.
Do I think the troops should come home? Yes.

That is really not what this thread was supposed to be about.

The video was about the human side of being in the military, and it is not a bad thing to be reminded of this.

My father was in the Navy in WWII, my uncle was a pilot in the Korean War, and my Grandfather was a pilot in WWI (he flew a sopwith camel). They all had terrible stories to tell - and some things they could never talk about, and they were all changed dramatically by their experiences.

I am proud of them, and I am so grateful they all came home.

Originally posted by elevatedone
reply to post by Chorlton

 

That was very disrespectful to this entire thread.

I think he aws just acknowledging an alternative type of courage, moral courage. I don't see how it disrespects the thread. Some of us pick up guns and fight because our 'leaders' screw up and others defy those same 'leaders' so that others don't have to pick up guns in future.

It's ridiculous to see two sides essentaily striving for the same thing being brought into conflict like this just because people can't hold onto their emotional reactions.

Sure we are ALL guilty of it, I'm the first to admit that I can't keep a 100% guard over my emotional responses at times but I usually work it through. It isn't much to ask that we give people a chance to make an intelligent contribution rather than jumping on them the very instant they do not.

Accusations of disrespect don't help anybody.

reply to post by magicmushroom

The concept of you don't have to support war but you can support the troops is a totally ridiculous and a idealistic notion.

You obviously never stood a post or were in harm's way. Unlike my brothers and sisters of the Vietnam Conflict, this exact concept is being done right now in practicality with the Iraq soldiers that are returning home. Thousands of people are proving this right each and every day.

Dave

[edit on 10/15/2007 by Dave Rabbit]

reply to post by Chorlton



Was that truely neccessary? Fine you disagree with the motives of the war...fine, we get it. You have no respect for anyone in uniform, and don't you dare say otherwise, your words are there to be read. Fine, we get it, now go away.

My own view is this: These are our brothers, sister, parents, our children, our best freinds, hell, they're even people I don't particularly like. They are whereever they are: Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, and a thousand other places with names we'll never hear, read, or go to. They are from countries like the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Italy, and dozens of other countries. In short they are us. To disrespect them is to disrespect us. They are where they are for the noblest of reasons, they want to help...they want to help their own nation, they want to help the people where they are.

Before you condemn the whole for what ever actions a small minority have done, or the actions of their political masters, take some time out to remember that those people are us, not some nebulous "other".

Originally posted by semperfortis
Having BEEN there and DONE that, it is also a FACT that the men and women and children that are now free in Iraq, have a completely different attitude about the soldiers; one more attuned to real life as they are not living in their mommies basement. I know I have spoken with them on numerous occasions...

Really ? Next thing you'll be telling us is that our servicemen are being garlanded by hula hula girls at Baghdad International as they walk down the steps. I prefer to subscribe to conventional thinking myself, that they don't want us there and have resented our presence since day one. Even in the highly unlikely event the locals were 100% united and grateful for what our guys were doing it still doesn't justify invading their country in the first place. We should only go to war when all else has failed.

You also casually dismiss the opinion of others for no other reason than you have served and most of us haven't. Most people are grateful for your service. Of that I'm sure. And though I'm grateful for the special insight you have shared, last time I checked it was one man one vote in this country. Your opinion and mine are no more significant than that of the guy who does live in Mommie's basement.

Perhaps there's a transatlantic cultural difference too. I've never yet felt the need to disclose here that I've served in the military. It's never been relevant. I've read umpteen threads here where guys still wear their military service on their sleeves. "As a Vet", "As someone who's fought in Iraq", "As someone on his his fourth tour of duty in Baghdad" ..... I've never doubted their claims but you do have to wonder sometimes whether a quarter of the male contributors to this forum have really served anywhere at all ..... or whether they too are still stuck in Mommie's basement and living an online fantasy.

For the record, between 1984 and 1991 I served with a branch of the RAF which held the responsibility for liaising with the national/local government, the police & broadcasters in times of emergency. We were the "four minute warning guys". My job wasn't perhaps as heroic as yours and no-one's ever going to make a movie about my section. But I served too. And I resent even having to mention it. Because my opinion should be as valued as yours .... whether or not I choose to disclose my service, in fact whether or not I served in the military at all.

I'm grateful we were never needed. So should you be. In fact gratitude doesn't even begin to describe how thankful I am.

But in my personal experience some of those most likely to argue for restraint and least likely to argue for the use of force are the very ones who have served their time in the military. What did Churchill say ? Jaw Jaw is better than War War. I believe in that.

reply to post by Niall197



Spot on. The ones who make the biggest blow about it are usually those who pushed a pen in some QM depot. I've never known a vet who would let on to a bunch of strangers about his service, most of them don't even talk to their families about it.

Why is it disrespectful to bring up the guys who laid down their lives instead of making war with fellow humans??

I honour them too ..for having a mind of their own,something that seems to be lacking these days.

"Jump off that cliff"... YES SIR!!

"Wear your underpants on your head".. YES SIR!!

"Stand in that field while some one shoots at you".. YES SIR!!

Sorry but that's the kind of brainwashed muppet the Government loves to send to do the fighting for them.

Until we return to the time proved method of a 'KING' leading the charge,with the courage of his convictions and his own personal safety on the line.. then I'd say
"KISS MY ARSE SIR!!.

I'd like to believe that,if it ever came to taking up arms against an oppressor, I'd have a bunch of guys by my side who could think for themselves.

Anyone who revells in conflict and demands our respect,honour and reverence for doing it is frankly disturbed and should receive a worse reception that GI's in Vietnam earned upon their return.

Don't forget,those poor souls were conscripted.
Today's field soldier makes a choice..which is usually one based on poor education,disadvantaged circumstances and lack of career options.
Not the propaganda laden causes the government would have us believe.

"Fighting for your freedoms"
"Liberating the oppressed"..

What a crock!!

Sign me up when my brain falls out