First Moon Picture from Japanese Orbiter

Update from JAXA

KAGUYA (SELENE) Observations with Laser Altimeter (LALT)
and Lunar Radar Sounder (LRS) Sounder Mode
January 10, 2008 (JST)
Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA)


The Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) carried out observations using two onboard sensors of the lunar explorer KAGUYA -- the Laser Altimeter (LALT) and sounder mode of the Lunar Radar Sounder (LRS).
The LRS system transmits RF pulses with frequency of 5 MHz which is able to penetrate deep into the Moon's subsurface region. When the radio waves meet with the discontinuity of subsurface material, it makes a subsurface echo signal. Observation of subsurface signal makes it possible to see subsurface structure of the Moon.

LRS uses two sets of 30m tip-to-tip long dipole antennas for the 5 MHz radar observation.

Initial results on the lunar subsurface structure were obtained using the LRS sounder mode observation data collected on November 20 and 21, 2007. The received radar echo was as expected through computer simulation. The extraction of radar echoes reflected by subsurface structures was demonstrated to be satisfactory.

In addition to the conventional sounding technique that tests echo trace in the plots like Figures 1 and 2, a new method that uses not only the amplitudes of the echoes but also their phases was proved feasible. This method utilizes the synthetic aperture radar (SAR) technique with foci of variable depths and ensures robust detection of radar echoes from subsurface structures.

1 - Simulated radar echoes

Simulated radar echoes to be observed by the KAGUYA (left) as it travels over the model surface structure (right) (Kobayashi et al. 2002). In the diagram, vertical and horizontal axes correspond to the apparent depth and positional offset, respectively, and coded in color is the amplitude of radar echo. The apparent depth is the delay timing divided by the speed of light. In the 2-D diagram, echoes from large craters appear as hyperbolic coherent features, while surface clatters from numerous small craters appear as random noise near the surface. The targeted radar echoes from subsurface structures appear as continuous features with nearly constant depths. Subsurface echoes can be detected in this manner.


2 - Observed radar echoes taken with the LRS near the Poisson crater (30.4S, 10.6E) on November 20, 2007, in a 20 second period from 18:22:50 to 18:23:10.
( Full size image )

These agree with the simulated echoes in the previous figure in the following aspects:
- Trace and amplitude variation of the surface crater echoes in the 2-D diagram.
- Behavior of the surface clatters (unwanted radar echoes caused by adjacent craters that interfere with the detection of subsurface echoes, particularly in highland regions).
These ensure validity of the new data analysis method established with the computer simulation results. Here both crater echoes and surface clatters are classified as interference due to surface reflection, and we refer to the coherent echoes as "crater echoes" and the incoherent ones as "surface clatters".



3 - The synthetic aperture radar (SAR) image and strata identification of the northeastern part of the Mare Imbrium near the Kirch crater (39.2N, 5.6W, 11 km dia.) retrieved from the LRS sounder mode observation data on November 21, 2007, from 22:13 to 22:15.

(Full size image)

Shown in the upper left panel are results of the SAR detection of reflective subsurface structures down to 500 m by focusing on relatively shallow regions. The depth refers to the 1737.4 km sphere centered at the center of the mass of the Moon. Red lines in the lower left panel show evident reflecting interfaces in the section, which is 180 km long. True dips of the interfaces are very small, as those sections are vertically exaggerated by a factor of ~30. This means that the mare is underlain by horizontally lying strata as thick as 500 m, probably composed of lava, volcanic ashe and ejecta blankets. This experiment verified the performance of the LRS sounder mode observation, and at the same time provided direct evidence for the existence of depositional units underneath the Mare Imbrium.

Source: Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency

(quote tags)

[edit on 4-7-2008 by Jbird]

reply to post by internos


Thank you for the update internos.

As far as I can see this a sample of the LRS data and if I understand it correctly there are no cavities in this particular batch, correct me if I am wrong.

If this is the case I guess it will be a long time before anymore LRS data is released as like the photographic material they will want to give there own scientists first crack at it.

Oh well I can wait.

Originally posted by sherpa
reply to post by internos

 

Thank you for the update internos.

As far as I can see this a sample of the LRS data and if I understand it correctly there are no cavities in this particular batch, correct me if I am wrong.

If this is the case I guess it will be a long time before anymore LRS data is released as like the photographic material they will want to give there own scientists first crack at it.

Oh well I can wait.

I agree: my impression is that as always they have chosen an area of not particular interest: they simply are showing that they're doing the work, and that the results are the ones which they expected by their intruments.
Mmmmm, they seems to have stopped their release of HDTV and TC, but i'm not sure... I have to check the date of their last release.

So, still we miss sample data from:

• X-Ray Spectrometer (XRS)
  
  
• Charged Particles Spectrometer (CPS)
  
  
• Four way Doppler measurements by Relay satellite and Main Orbiter transponder (RSAT)
  
  
• Gamma Ray Spectrometer (GRS)
  
  
• Lunar Magnetometer (LMAG)
  
  
• Plasma energy Angle and Composition Experiment (PACE)
  
  
• Upper-atmosphere and Plasma Imager (UPI)
  
  
• Differential VLBI Radio Source (VRAD)
  
  

Has anyone been to the JAXA Gallery lately? There are several new images to look at with a lot of great anomalous rock features and very stunning pixel artifications.
I'll post of few cropped images if I can. New to this so hope it works.

I found this to be interesting.

" target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>

Here is a larger image with what looks like structures in the yellow circles and there seems to be something wrong with the image in the areas inside the red squares. Fog, smoke, dust or maybe brushed out? Whatever it is doesn't look right.


[img][img=http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7983/hdtv0032leqb2.th.jpg][/img]

Are crater walls supposed to be tiered down and have a worked over look naturally? Look closely at the small yellow circle in the middle of this crater, This is the Jackson crater btw-according to JAXA.

[img][img=http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7273/hdtv0031lehq2.th.jpg][/img]

This last image I circled a few of the anomalous structures in yellow, and in red are some shadow anomalies. I would say that it doesn't look right but this whole image doesn't look right. Something about the lower right corner makes me wounder if it's been photo shopped or colored out


[img][img=http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6152/hdtv0011lefn5.th.jpg][/img]

Well the new images are fun to look at anyway.


[edit on 3/4/2008 by Devino]

[edit on 3/4/2008 by Devino]

[edit on 3/4/2008 by Devino]

reply to post by Devino

Thanks Devino.
Soon I will see the lunar landers left behind, this is so exciting.
Anyone, please u2u me if they show up.
Oops, I can always say cgi like the Illuminati control says of UFOs.
The tables have turned.

reply to post by Devino


I would be very surprised if still images from a video would look as sharp as a photo.

People should not forget that, these are still images from a video feed, not real photos. If we pause a YouTube video we can see that the image is much worse than what we see on the video, and that is on purpose, that is how they reduce the file size of the videos, using tricks that make us think that the image is good.

Originally posted by ArMaP
using tricks that make us think that the image is good.

AH Tricks to make us think.... hmmm

So in effect it makes these images useless... just like the 3D modelling is useless... just like the super high resolution images are useless...

Yet they keep spending millions on making these and showing them to us and each time promising us that THIS time it will be high res or HDTV or something... then pull the rug out and say " Oh but we can't show you anything for at least a year or two"

I bet China's moon craft isn't even there anymore... if it ever was... can we get any telemetry on them... from an independent source?

reply to post by ArMaP


I didn't forget that this was HD video...more like I was caught up in what I saw. The still pictures are very odd looking and they have captured my attention, that's for sure. What I think I see and what I believe is logical have become two different things. To be a true skeptic I can't simply dismiss these as rock anomalies any more then I can accept them as artificial structures. So I digress into questioning the camera's technology.

As for the videos being odd, even more so... JAXA Video Archive. The video pixelization jumps around so much it animates the Moons surface giving it a bustling look of activity and the appearance of things in the distance change dramatically as the camera gets closer. This makes it hard to get a good look at anything.

As Zorgon points out sarcastically, "So in effect it makes these images useless." A smoking gun of evidence it is not, but they do have a story to tell. As I watch some of the videos I start to see in the areas of pixelization a 3D contrast spring to life in an almost startling manner, maybe if I had 3D glasses and popcorn.... From this I want to learn more about the nature of digital imagery and why these images look the way they do. The still images are far better in quality then the video. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

It would be great to put all the videos into one file connecting surface areas if possible, but remove the time/date stamps. On the other hand, maybe I have spent too much time looking at this stuff already. It is addictive.

[edit on 7/5/2008 by Devino]

Originally posted by zorgon
AH Tricks to make us think.... hmmm

Yes, that is how movies work, making us believe that we are seeing a moving image when we are seeing several static images. As the most important thing is the moving image, the individual images are created in a way to enhance the movement and not sharpness and accuracy.

So in effect it makes these images useless... just like the 3D modelling is useless... just like the super high resolution images are useless...

They may be are useless when used in purposes that are not those for which they were made, like you are useless if used as a representation of all living creatures on Earth.

reply to post by Devino


I think that the problem with this mission (Kaguya) is that the whole mission was "hijacked" by the HD video promises, a commercial stunt that worked up to a point but that drowned all the other 14 mission experiments.

Originally posted by ArMaP
a commercial stunt that worked up to a point but that drowned all the other 14 mission experiments.

Problem with that is once the commercial stunt flopped its game over...

Most people could care less about the 14 experiments... they want to see what's up there... I remember weeks of the usual cabal of skeptics telling us how the Chinese and Japanese where gonna show us whats real...

Now the cabal fell silent and we are still waiting... and even the skeptics can say WTF? to what both released...

the Chinese with their single picture that had a major error in it heck that hit the web circuit within hours of release

the promise HD TV when those first films just looked wrong to even the most hardened skeptic... the only ones who went "Oh WOW" are the youtube kids who have never seen the old images

I for one am interested in the gravity readings

It seems VERY ODD to me that they need to study the gravity... and even NASA is sending a new probe just for that...

It seems if they already been there done that with the Moon landings why would we need to re study the gravity anomalies especially telling us its very important to keep orbits...

Something isn't right here... and there are four scientists (that we have contact with) currently challenging what we know about gravity

Something to watch that is for sure

Originally posted by ArMaP

 

I think that the problem with this mission (Kaguya) is that the whole mission was "hijacked" by the HD video promises, a commercial stunt that worked up to a point...

I must have missed the commercial stunt part. I still find this mission exciting and enjoy looking at the videos and pictures but it eats up so much time. Comparing videos with still images of the same area (SELENE and Apollo) fascinates me.

Originally posted by zorgon
I for one am interested in the gravity readings

It seems VERY ODD to me that they need to study the gravity... and even NASA is sending a new probe just for that...

It seems if they already been there done that with the Moon landings why would we need to re study the gravity anomalies especially telling us its very important to keep orbits...

Something isn't right here... and there are four scientists (that we have contact with) currently challenging what we know about gravity

I am also very interested in understanding gravity. I would say that the odd thing is how little mainstream science professes to know about gravity. Gravity is proportional to mass and inversely so to the square of it's distance. We also know that it is somehow effected by acceleration through inertia but that's about it. One of the few fundamental laws of nature and we almost know enough to predict it's effects, pretty sad IMO. Mainstream science still professes that space is a void and gravity pulls, heaven help us.

I believe that science is now at a dead end, it took a wrong turn almost 100 years ago and pride refuses to acknowledge this or even dare to learn where we went wrong. So now we are left with the redefining of explanations and making up new words in an attempt to save face.

The one thing about orbiting the Moon is the craft needs constant adjustments due to gravity anomalies, or so I have read, in order to maintain orbit. If you were to fly over the Moons surface low enough to get good pictures the fluctuations in gravity would play havoc to your orbit.

Originally posted by Devino
I must have missed the commercial stunt part.

The HD video is just a commercial stunt.

The HD video rights are owned by NHK (Japan Broadcasting Corporation) and before they publish them we can only see those small videos (those videos are 1/4 the height and 1/4 of the width of the real HDTV image, so they show 1/16th of the HDTV image).

Originally posted by ArMaP
The HD video is just a commercial stunt... (those videos are 1/4 the height and 1/4 of the width of the real HDTV image, so they show 1/16th of the HDTV image).

Well that would make sense why the few selected still images are so much better in quality then the video. If we are getting an edited down version of the true video (1/16th-or 6.25%) then where is the real stuff? How much do you think people would pay for a DVD of the real version?
Hmmm, the 'CT' wheels are turning.

Originally posted by DevinoGravity is proportional to mass and inversely so to the square of it's distance.

I'll see your Newton and raise you Spolter

"A new equation for the gravitational force is introduced, which is the correct interpretation of Kepler's third law and which has been verified experimentally to very high precision. The equation is F = a.A, or force = acceleration Area."

Gravitational Forces of the Sun by Pari Spolter challenging Newton and Einstein...

The one thing about orbiting the Moon is the craft needs constant adjustments due to gravity anomalies, or so I have read, in order to maintain orbit. If you were to fly over the Moons surface low enough to get good pictures the fluctuations in gravity would play havoc to your orbit.

You are correct and Prof Johann Hansen said this back in 1886... and most particularly that the farside has more gravity than the near side because the center of gravity is not the center of the moon... plus add all the mascons where astronauts can step forward a foot and weigh more

As you say 100 years later we are just getting back to that It is this reason that early ships crashed on or missed the moon..,

What bothers me is why restudy all this NOW IF we did indeed land there with Apollo? This really bothers me

Now as to Selene pictures try comparing them to the old high res lunar orbiter shots taken in 1965... then tell me your still impressed


To ArMaP

This coming week I will have time to start the thread on the "Rolling Hills of Luna"



But do me a favor... see if can you find me a good copy of Lunar Orbiter III-123H3 (LO3-123H3)

Originally posted by zorgon

 

I'll see your Newton and raise you Spolter

Pari Spolter...Thanks, this looks interesting. I always enjoy reading about dysfunctional physics, kinda odd how most people avoid or even try to hide the problems with old school physics.

Originally posted by zorgon
As you say 100 years later we are just getting back to that

It is this reason that early ships crashed on or missed the moon..

I keep thinking about this, 100 years... Where did the theory about gravity being a pulling force come in? I read that Newton was indecisive not claiming it to be either way, push or pull. So who decided it would be a, "Pulling," force? This idea may sound odd at first but that changes after a little investigation.
It's kinda funny that the Michelson-Morley experiments were said to be inconclusive yet they still build and use interferometers only now it's said they're looking for gravity waves. Never-the-less they seem to get the same results, almost null.

Originally posted by zorgon
Now as to Selene pictures try comparing them to the old high res lunar orbiter shots taken in 1965... then tell me your still impressed

I have done this with pictures of the crater Aristarchus for example. You could say that I was impressed that Japan got a craft to orbit the Moon and send back pictures, but after that the overall feeling I get from the mission turns into frustration. I am fascinated in what I see in the still images and if these stills are the quality of the original videos then, after seeing them, I might be impressed.

I wouldn't let the landing of Apollo issue worry you, either Apollo landed on the Moon or it didn't. I feel what is being hidden is far more interesting then some old hoax. More to the point it is one thing to have manned Moon orbits and be able to manually correct against these gravitational anomalies vs. unmanned. Then again it is an entirely different thing to understand the cause of these anomalies or even gravity itself.

[edit on 7/6/2008 by Devino]

Any new news about the Japanese orbiter

Picture of the "halo" area around Apollo 15 landing site observed by Terrain Camera on SELENE(KAGUYA)






more info

reply to post by Anonymous ATS
Any new news about the Japanese orbiter

There isn't any news, which strongly suggests there IS something- or a lot of things- which are not supposed to be on the moon.

We will never know what is really there unless people start getting mad.

Enjoy the great taxpayer rip-off, folks.

Originally posted by star in a jar
reply to post by Anonymous ATS
Any new news about the Japanese orbiter

There isn't any news, which strongly suggests there IS something- or a lot of things- which are not supposed to be on the moon.

We will never know what is really there unless people start getting mad.

Enjoy the great taxpayer rip-off, folks.

Are you Japanese? I'm not, and my taxes aren't paying for it.
And if you bother to look, there is some new stuff.
www.selene.jaxa.jp...