The Lie Movement?

People wonder why the self-proclaimed truth movement is not taken seriously. In my opinion it is strictly because the so-called truthers became the liars somewhere along the way.

I would like to use this thread to document all the lies that the truthers have told about 9/11.

I suggest we stick to fables that are so easily refuted that they are beyond argument. The purpose of this thread is not to bash the misinformed truthers. It is to clear out the garbage that the legitimate seekers of truth are dying beneath.

Feel free to add your favorite non-truth coming from the truth movement...

I will start with:

Fire does not melt steel.
No plane parts or body parts were found at FL 93 crash site.

Is this thread for real?

Melting temperature of steel

"Most steel has other metals added to tune its properties, like strength, corrosion resistance, or ease of fabrication. Steel is just the element iron that has been processed to control the amount of carbon. Iron, out of the ground, melts at around 1510 degrees C (2750°F). Steel often melts at around 1370 degrees C (2500°F)."

Burening temperature of jet fuel

JET A-1
Flash point: 38 °C
Autoignition temperature: 210 °C
Freezing point: -47 °C (-40 °C for JET A)
Open air burning temperatures: 260-315 °C (500-599 °F)
Maximum burning temperature: 980 °C (1796 °F)
Density at 15 °C (60 °F): 0.775-0.840 kg/L
Chemical Compound: C12H23

As for NO plane parts or bodies, I've NEVER heard a "truther" say any such thing.Plane parts are there, it's a matter of what they belong to.
Where are the huge engines to this plane?

You have been debunked on the very first post.This isn't a bash at you but you really should do some simple searches before starting a thread like this.

I'll bet if you did a side by side comparison of the Official report versus "truthers" you may find the official story makes less sense.
Please include links in the future to back up your opinion/statement/fact(s).

reply to post by citizen truth


Great example of perpetuating the lies.

People say fire cannot melt steel. I assure you fire can melt steel. How do you think they make it.

And yes, just today somebody posted here that there were no body parts or plane parts found.

So can we add to the list of lies false claims of debunking posts?

Thanks for the post! It really does serve as a perfect example of the non-truthful nature of the truth movement.

Yes, fire can melt steel that's a very broad comment.IF you have a blast furnace or smelting facility you can melt steel.
Used in the context of 9/11 jet fuel could not possibly melt steel in those structures.Is that clear enough or do you have data to support your claim?
I didn't think I actually had to spell it out.
Open air burning jet fuel is 500-599 °F
Steel melts at 2500°F

This does not compute Will Robinson.
Nice try.I notice no links or verification of your claims.
If you want to debunk, that's fine BUT you should have support for that.

Edited to say that HEAT from fires can melt steel.My bad.
It still shows that 599 F won't melt steel.My pizza oven has been hotter than that.

[edit on 10-10-2007 by citizen truth]

Please read the last sentence in allegation 51, of this Quit Am Complaint. If you think this information is in error you should contact your government representative immediately and demand that he listen to you.

QUI TAM COMPLAINT and JURY DEMAND
DOCKET NO. May 31, 2007
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

Plaintiff/Relator,
DR. MORGAN REYNOLDS on behalf of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

vs.

Defendants. :
SCIENCE APPLICATIONS INTERNATIONAL CORP.;
APPLIED RESEARCH ASSOCIATES, INC.;
BOEING; NuSTATS; COMPUTER AIDED ENGINEERING ASSOCIATES, INC.;
DATASOURCE, INC.; GEOSTAATS, INC.;
GILSANZ MURRAY STEFICEK LLP;
HUGHES ASSOCIATES, INC.; AJMAL ABBASI;
EDUARDO KAUSEL; DAVID PARKS;
DAVID SHARP; DANIELE VENEZANO;
JOSEF VAN DYCK; KASPAR WILLIAM;
ROLF JENSEN & ASSOCIATES, INC;
ROSENWASSER/GROSSMAN CONSULTING ENGINEERS, P.C.;
SIMPSON GUMPERTZ & :HEGER, INC.;
S. K. GHOSH ASSOCIATES, INC.;
SKIDMORE, OWINGS & MERRILL, LLP;
TENG & ASSOCIATES, INC.;
UNDERWRITERS LABORATORIES, INC.;
WISS, JANNEY, ELSTNER ASSOCIATES, INC.;
AMERICAN AIRLINES; SILVERSTEIN PROPERTIES;
and UNITED AIRLINES,


VII. THE DEFENDANTS SCHEME

(allegation 51)

51. Several of the defendants with whom NIST contracted for services in the preparation of NCSTAR 1 are, themselves, primarily engaged as defense contractors in a variety of disciplines, including, without limitation, very specific involvement in the use, development, manufacture, testing and or assessment of usability of directed energy weapons. In other words, NIST contracted with those who have the greatest familiarity with directed energy weapons in order to produce a report that sought to go to any length necessary to avoid, disguise, omit and otherwise divert attention away from the actual, real and intended destruction of the WTC complex by use of one device, namely directed energy weaponry, while pretending that the cause was the result of conditions that would be impossible based on the extent to which the NIST report, NCSTAR 1 violated both the laws of physics and common sense. By way of one example, NIST’s NCSTAR 1 report found no piece of steel that had been subjected to a temperature higher than 600 degrees C, and most had not encountered a temperature of higher than 250 degrees C; yet, NIST offered no explanation whatever for the visual confirmation that most of the steel of the WTC complex was turned to dust and otherwise visibly subjected to a destructive process that could not conceivably have been caused by the effects, combined or otherwise, of jet fuel, gravity and/or damage from jetliner impacts.

Hey John, thanks for the info.I've read the highlighted portion on more than one site.
Do you think this weapon is related to the Active Denial System (crowd dispersal) or something from the Tesla era that HAARP has developed further.
Sorry to the OP for the slight derail, just curious.
Just in case this one gets chosen for a debunk........

Active Denial System

1. A big lie or disinfo campaign is that the steel needed to melt. The fires burned hot enough to weaken the steel to 50% of it's original stregnth. The weight of the floors on top of where the fires where, would have been to much to bear if the steel had lost 50% of it's stregnth.

2. "No planes hit the towers dog..it was holagrams!" Idiocy. This theory is not based in reality..secondly lets assume that science and math has failed us..and it would be possible to make a killer hologram. Why go through all that work (and spend all that extra money) when u could just use REAL JETLINERS. I'm sorry but the truth is that anyone who belives in this hologram crap, has lost touch with reality long ago. I don't care how smart u think u are...if u buy into that theory you're an idiot. I'm willing to listen to a lot of stuff...but i draw the line at holograms.

3. therew as no wreckage found at either pentagon or the PA crash site. This is wrong because u can google it and find the wreckage.

there's a lot of flaws in the 9-11 Lie Movement..but those are the ones that grate my guts the most..especially that stupid hologram thing.

Originally posted by citizen truth

Hey John, thanks for the info.I've read the highlighted portion on more than one site.
Do you think this weapon is related to the Active Denial System (crowd dispersal) or something from the Tesla era that HAARP has developed further.
Sorry to the OP for the slight derail, just curious.
Just in case this one gets chosen for a debunk........

Active Denial System

Thanks for the post citizen truth. the DEW (Directed Energy Weapon) was on an orbiting weapons system. Zorgon will be posting details on the "Did the Space Shuttle Dock With the Secret Space Station Tonight," sometime in the next few days.

Originally posted by robert z
People wonder why the self-proclaimed truth movement is not taken seriously. In my opinion it is strictly because the so-called truthers became the liars somewhere along the way.
I will start with:

Fire does not melt steel.
No plane parts or body parts were found at FL 93 crash site.

Well thats better then the people that believe the official story, they have been spreading the media lies since day one.

I think you better read the NIST and other reports about the fires not burning long enough or getting hot enough to melt steel.

wtc.nist.gov...

Of the recovered core pieces, none showed exposure to temperatures in excess of 250 C.

Of 170 examined areas on the perimeter column panels, only three showed exposure to temperatures in excess of 250 C and for one of these three forensic evidence indicated that the high temperature exposure occurred AFTER the collapse.

No recovered steel showed any evidence of exposure to temperatures above 600 C for any significant time.

Please show me any actual FBI or NTSB reports about flight 93 crash scene.




[edit on 10-10-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by robert z

Feel free to add your favorite non-truth coming from the truth movement...

I will start with:

Fire does not melt steel.
No plane parts or body parts were found at FL 93 crash site.

Boy... the ignorance .
Fire does not melt steel? Thats wrong, off the bat. Not to mention that the steel beams that supposedly "pancaked" were reinforced with a surrounding layer of insulation and/or concrete.
No body parts?...im sure by this point, someone already teared you apart on that statement, so...

Originally posted by Unplugged
Boy... the ignorance

.
Fire does not melt steel? Thats wrong, off the bat. Not to mention that the steel beams that supposedly "pancaked" were reinforced with a surrounding layer of insulation and/or concrete.
No body parts?...im sure by this point, someone already teared you apart on that statement, so...

I think he was listing out "lies" that the truth movement were telling. I dont think he supports these theories. It would seem you are attacking or debating the wrong side...

Originally posted by robert z

Feel free to add your favorite non-truth coming from the truth movement...

My current favorite, you guessed it, they were freakin' HOLOGRAMS man!
This, while only being theoretically possible, is being touted as the only way to explain all the TV and video anomilies. I just think if your going to use planes as a distraction so you can demo the WTCs 1 and 2, you don't need holograms. DEW from space and you still use real airplanes. Controled demo and you use real airplanes, if they set off the charges early its OK the tower still comes down, psyop successful.

The things i think are logical to believe is

The use of thermate/blasting

The use of planes, perhaps not commercial.

The use of media video manipulation explains a non commercial plane scenario

The possible use of high tech beam/missles

reply to post by robert z


Looks like you created this thread so people will have to do the work for you and dig out evidence... clever, but isnt it a bit lazy?

The official story is a joke. You will be telling it to your kids 30 years from now... how the government tricked the people, and they believed it. It will be a very interesting story, and you will feel a bit embarrassed for having believed it, but also grateful since you learned how governments are actually really good at lying.

Everything is a learning experience.


[edit on 11-10-2007 by Copernicus]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

I think you better read the NIST and other reports about the fires not burning long enough or getting hot enough to melt steel.

I'm not talking about the NIST report. I'm talking about what some ignorant truthers say that are easily refuted and make the truth movement look like the Lie Movement.

Case in point, Rosie O. telling the world on The View that fire cannot melt steel. That is not true.

Or stating that WTCs fell in free fall time. That is not true, as evidenced by videos showing debris falling ahead of the collapse.

Or stating that Bush and Bin Laden were in business together.

Or stating that there was no plane debris at Shanksville. There was. To say there was not is an outright lie.

Like I said, the truth movement still looks more like the Lie Movement to me. I think the only question is whether it is intentional disinfo, ignorant parroting of misinformation, or both.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
1. A big lie or disinfo campaign is that the steel needed to melt. The fires burned hot enough to weaken the steel to 50% of it's original stregnth. The weight of the floors on top of where the fires where, would have been to much to bear if the steel had lost 50% of it's stregnth.

With factors of safety being over 2, this is erroneous IMO.

2. "No planes hit the towers dog..it was holagrams!" Idiocy. This theory is not based in reality..secondly lets assume that science and math has failed us..and it would be possible to make a killer hologram. Why go through all that work (and spend all that extra money) when u could just use REAL JETLINERS. I'm sorry but the truth is that anyone who belives in this hologram crap, has lost touch with reality long ago. I don't care how smart u think u are...if u buy into that theory you're an idiot. I'm willing to listen to a lot of stuff...but i draw the line at holograms.

I guess top notch generals are thus stupid also?

"Once you can take any kind of information and reduce it into ones and zeros, you can do some pretty interesting things," says Daniel T. Kuehl, chairman of the Information Operations department of the National Defense University in Washington, the military's school for information warfare.

Digital morphing — voice, video, and photo — has come of age, available for use in psychological operations. PSYOPS, as the military calls it, seek to exploit human vulnerabilities in enemy governments, militaries and populations to pursue national and battlefield objectives.

The Gulf War hologram story might be dismissed were it not the case that washingtonpost.com has learned that a super secret program was established in 1994 to pursue the very technology for PSYOPS application. The "Holographic Projector" is described in a classified Air Force document as a system to "project information power from space ... for special operations deception missions."

Non-Conspiracy site source: www.washingtonpost.com...

3. therew as no wreckage found at either pentagon or the PA crash site. This is wrong because u can google it and find the wreckage.

This is a total misrepresentation by the official people. It is stated that the parts were not from where we were told. HUGE DIFFERENCE PEOPLE.

there's a lot of flaws in the 9-11 Lie Movement..but those are the ones that grate my guts the most..especially that stupid hologram thing.

Again with the name calling. I'd call anyone who hasn't done their homework stupid, but I will not stoop to such levels.

Originally posted by robert z
Case in point, Rosie O. telling the world on The View that fire cannot melt steel. That is not true.

The official story for over a year was that they did. Truthers are saying it because the official story said it first.

Or stating that WTCs fell in free fall time. That is not true, as evidenced by videos showing debris falling ahead of the collapse.

Also comes from the official story.

Or stating that Bush and Bin Laden were in business together.

Please do your homework. Your generalization statements make me want to puke.

Or stating that there was no plane debris at Shanksville. There was. To say there was not is an outright lie.

Name one person who has stated that NO plane debris was found.

Like I said, the truth movement still looks more like the Lie Movement to me.

Well, to me, it looks like you are the one lying to fit into your agenda. So, why do you believe you are on a high horse again?

I think the only question is whether it is intentional disinfo, ignorant parroting of misinformation, or both.

Same can be said of you.

reply to post by Spawwwn





The steel can lose 50-90% of its load bearing ability at temps far below its melting point, so that right there is a very good point. Once the structure started failing, you had the increase in mass/inertia from additional floors, causing the lower floors to give way.

Holograms of planes/explosions are in the realm of fantasy, so I won't even dignify them with consideration.

There was most certainly wreckage found at the Pentagon, and I know people who were there, so again, another good point.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
The steel can lose 50-90% of its load bearing ability at temps far below its melting point, so that right there is a very good point. Once the structure started failing, you had the increase in mass/inertia from additional floors, causing the lower floors to give way.

Please post evidence that the steel became hot enough to loose 50-90% of it's strength. Thanks. NIST even says not.

Holograms of planes/explosions are in the realm of fantasy, so I won't even dignify them with consideration.

Fantasy? Fantasy is when you refuse to look. See my above post quoting from the Washington Post. A non conspiratorial site. Until you do, I will not dignify you with a consideration.

There was most certainly wreckage found at the Pentagon, and I know people who were there, so again, another good point.

Again. Where are the FBI and NTSB reports of it being the plane they said it was? Oh, yeah, there aren't any.

NEXT.

Originally posted by Griff

Case in point, Rosie O. telling the world on The View that fire cannot melt steel. That is not true.

The official story for over a year was that they did. Truthers are saying it because the official story said it first.

You are perpetuating the lies by defending them, Griff.

The official story NEVER said fire cannot melt steel. It said that that the steel was not melted by the jet fuel.

This issue is a lie on two fronts. First, whether the steel melted or not is a misdirection. The steel only needed to soften and weaken, not melt, for the collapse to take place. Second, fire CAN melt steel.

Or stating that Bush and Bin Laden were in business together.

Please do your homework. Your generalization statements make me want to puke.

What generalizations are you talking about? Do you know how many times that truthers trot out the fairy tale that Bush and Bin Laden were in business together? That is what I call an intentional distortion at best, an outright lie at worst.

Even the story at face value is that Bush Sr. and members of the bin Laden family were part of the Carlyle Group. The freakin' Carlyle Group is an investment company, like Fidelity. The have funds like mutual funds. 55 to be exact.

Even if Bush and Osama himself were invested in the same fund that means NOTHING. Saying it does is nothing more than a superficial sound bite with no purpose other than to take a shot at Bush.

I would suggest you puke on some other thread.

Or stating that there was no plane debris at Shanksville. There was. To say there was not is an outright lie.

Name one person who has stated that NO plane debris was found.

SNIP! removed childish inability to distinguish DISCUSSION of OPINION from "lies".

Like I said, the truth movement still looks more like the Lie Movement to me.

Well, to me, it looks like you are the one lying to fit into your agenda. So, why do you believe you are on a high horse again?

There is not one thing I lied about. I posted quotes that truthers made that are incorrect. What specifically do you think I lied about?

My agenda is to hold the mirror up to the truthers and show them how stupid they look when they distort the truth. When they distort the truth, like Rosie saying fire cannot melt steel, it gives ammunition to the debunkers to say how stupid the truthers are. And guess what? People generally think truthers are nutjobs at this point.

And it really does not matter if truthers parrot official story lies/mistakes. They should know better by now. Ever hear of disinfo? I will guarantee you that if this is an inside job there is an ongoing disinfo campaign.



[edit on 10-12-2007 by Springer]