Did we really descend from Apes??

Originally posted by camain
With time travel and multiverse theory, all things are possible)

And therein lies the whole crux of the problem.


People constantly invent new theories, in order to explain away God.


.....Yeah....let's reject God.....and creation, and invent a 'mulitiverse' thing, where we can all have an alternate reality, differing maybe only in the colour of the clothes we are wearing at a particular instant in time.



As for time travel:


"It is appointed unto men to die once, and after that, the judgement."


But people will grasp at any straws, as long as they think it will get us 'off the hook' where God's claim upon our lives is concerned. Any crackpot theory will do.

Any 'reality' will do.

As long as it's not the real one.



But we will all give an account to God on the last day.

That's one appointment that you WILL be keeping.

You people with a scientific view on everything don't understand one thing... The SOUL.. You CANNOT view things in a purely scientific way, For science to work it HAS to conform with religion to an extent.

This is one of the reasons that science fails...
Many people will say and believe that Jesus will return on a cloud, right..
In a religious point of view, you can say that this is completely possible, in a scientific way you cannot. A man cannot stand on a cloud, its not logically possible. Unless he is weightless, & one way to be weightless is to be a soul, so in this view, it is possible to stand on a cloud. Einstein says about Jesus: "No man, can deny the fact that Jesus existed, nor that his sayings are beautiful. Even if some them have been said before, no one has expressed them so divinely as he"

This is a man with a great mind, even he does not deny the fact that Jesus and God exists, this is the man who gave us the beautiful formula E=MC².
I KNOW one thing for sure, time will show us that we misunderstood, and that we made mistakes. But that will enable us to open our minds, and finally things will not be just looked at in a purely scientific manner, but also with a religious perspective as well. Its bound to happen I believe. This is my opinion and I know many people completely disagree. But oh well, this whole world disagrees with many things so I'm not really phased.

A recent study of Neanderthals, from The New York Times, December 1, 1998, Tuesday, Science Desk section, "Neanderthal Or Cretin? A Debate Over Iodine," by John Noble Wilford, suggests that the Neanderthals were modern humans with an iodine deficient diet. Iodine deficiency produces features remarkably similar to those observed in Neanderthal remains.

I personally believe God put chimpanzees and other species of monkey here to show us a thing or two... No matter how close another creature seems to us, it will NEVER BE us, and second reason, for us to enjoy them and their beauty and for them to observe ours. The only way we can create more humans, is BY US humans. You don't see monkeys producing humans and vice versa. But people will say: "We share 98% of our DNA with chimpanzee's" So? The cytochrome C of a dog is about 90% the same as that of a human, the hemoglobin of a horse is about 88% similar to that of a human. So in contrast a 98 percent genetic similarity between apes and humans is not surprising is it? It should be also be known that chimpanzees have 24 pairs of chromosomes and humans, 23 pairs, so there is a discontinuity as you can see.

But many people will still regard this as hype or complete non sense, but like I stated before, I am firm in my beliefs and only God can change those beliefs.

Do you know why we have 23 chromosomes and the apes have 24?

There is a very good explanation for this, which is compelling evidence for evolution.



But I'm sure you can just shrug it off and say 'that's the way god wanted it' or make up some other ad-hoc BS, just like you would with all this sort of evidence (and there is lots of such molecular evidence - pseudogenes, endogenous retroviri etc).

If so, such a vacuous answer. We have the rational explanation with evidence, you have wishful-thinking.

cheers.

[edit on 12-10-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by MASH_DADDY
You people with a scientific view on everything don't understand one thing... The SOUL.. You CANNOT view things in a purely scientific way, For science to work it HAS to conform with religion to an extent.

Prove that souls exist. The burden of proof is upon you.

Einstein says about Jesus: "No man, can deny the fact that Jesus existed, nor that his sayings are beautiful. Even if some them have been said before, no one has expressed them so divinely as he"

This is a man with a great mind, even he does not deny the fact that Jesus and God exists, this is the man who gave us the beautiful formula E=MC².
I KNOW one thing for sure, time will show us that we misunderstood, and that we made mistakes.

"I am, of course, and have always been an atheist."
-Albert Einstein

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."
-Albert Einstein

Originally posted by Old Man
People constantly invent new theories, in order to explain away God.

I don't think it's so much an "explaining away." I think it has a lot more to do with actually trying to define "God" in such a way that it doesn't have a lot of inherent contradictions and paradoxes. One of the most obvious paradoxes is why an ominpotent, infinite entity would have any need or desire to create a Universe, or later, mankind.

Perhaps you have a better definition for God that would facilitate a reasonable, rational discussion. I've never encountered one, however.

As for us evolving from apes, I think that even the tiny bit of fossil evidence we've been able to find so far (we haven't really been looking very long, you know), certainly suggests that we -- along with apes and other larger primates, some still alive, some not -- evolved from earlier, now extinct ape-like creatures.

I have no reason to prove that the soul exists, I have seen it for myself therefore it IS MY BELIEF, if your read carefully I didn't say this to be fact, ITS MY opinion, I have seen my own soul and seen my own body with my soul, that is MY proof and I don't have any hard evidence, I think it will be a very very long time before we can prove that something as complex and mysterious as the Soul actually exists, just as we proved that atoms exist.

Sorry but that video doesn't mean jack to me, it's all looked at in a scientific manner without the least regard to religion. So therefore I personally don't agree with it. You wan't proof that the Soul exists?? Well I can give you some experiments to try depending on how courageous and willing you are to find out the truth for yourself. One way would be to die and come back to life again, but I doubt that anyone would be willing to try this. Millions of people have had NDE's (near death experiences) and all claim to have been in another reality, and all have had life changing experiences. Scientists cannot prove the soul exists because we have no damn instruments or machines advanced enough to be able to comprehend the soul. Its like trying to explain the Atom and DNA 200 years ago!!! HOW CAN THIS BE ACHIEVED when Humanity is at such an immature stage?

Have you ever experienced Déjà Vu, or a very vivid dream, which you feel that is going to happen or has happened eventually? Where do you think these feelings, dreams come from? You say its all in the mind... But if you think clearly and carefully, how is this possible? How do you gather knowledge and insight while dreaming? Its your soul that makes these discoveries, when you sleep your soul leaves your body I believe. And also can you explain to me, how is it possible that people see deceased loved ones in their dreams, and other members of the family claim to have the EXACT same dream of the exact same person? Please, if your thinking about telling me this is coincidence don't even bother. This is my last post in this thread as I believe I have given my reasons and MY proof why the soul exists, I couldn't be bothered explaining this, because all people do is ask for proof, not knowing what hell they really want to see as evidence or proof.

The soul is not a material object, you cannot taste, touch or smell it.
So therefore good luck trying to get "tangible" evidence to prove it. Only way you will experience it, is by death, or tremendous blaspheming against God. And that I dare you to try. I have blasphemed God myself and regret it so much to this day..

I really do not get something maybe you guys may explain it to me.
People keep throwing a common ancestor, but how can a common ancestor give birth to a very intelligent being, that can create many different inventions, and also give birth to the apes who only know how to survive in the wild?
I mean eventually, don't you think the apes should have evolved into smarter beings?

Originally posted by Equinox99
I really do not get something maybe you guys may explain it to me.
People keep throwing a common ancestor, but how can a common ancestor give birth to a very intelligent being, that can create many different inventions, and also give birth to the apes who only know how to survive in the wild?

I think I have explained this before for you.

Essentially, a single population is split or evolves apart for whatever reason. They live under different circumstances with different selection pressures. One population goes down one evolutionary path, t'other down a different path over periods of thousands and millions of years. After such a period, two (or more with multiple splits) different species have emerged.

Why would a chimp need to survive in the city?

You do understand that the common ancestor only gave birth to descendents very similar to itself?

I mean eventually, don't you think the apes should have evolved into smarter beings?

I think they are pretty smart compared to other primates.

They are very well-equipped for their own environment, which is likely very similar to that of our common ancestor. Evolution isn't targeting the development of intelligent species, just species that can survive in particular environments. We are yet to show we can live in harmony with ours.

Is a big frontal lobe and opposable thumbs an evolutionary success? Or will it lead to self-destruction?

Time will tell.

[edit on 12-10-2007 by melatonin]

reply to post by MASH_DADDY


No, we descended from the universe, from a comet millions of years ago. it is a proven fact.
If we descended from apes, that would mean apes/monkeys would be extinct today.

reply to post by melatonin

Essentially, a single population is split or evolves apart for whatever reason. They live under different circumstances with different selection pressures. One population goes down one evolutionary path, t'other down a different path over periods of thousands and millions of years. After such a period, two (or more with multiple splits) different species have emerged

What multiple splits and selection pressures? We never had selection pressures, are you claiming that somewhere down the path we had intercourse with chimps or other types of species? Hmmm this explains the so many types of races and religions that we have today? Where did all these come from?

Why would a chimp need to survive in the city?

I think another question would be: Why would a human need to survive in the wild? Chimps never have had that capability, but humans have, chimps never made pyramids, or advanced structures, we did.

You do understand that the common ancestor only gave birth to descendents very similar to itself?

Because thats what is programmed in its DNA, to breed with the same type of "primates" similar to itself, have you noticed how different a chimps or gorilla's teeth are to ours? We are not primates and never have been.

I think they are pretty smart compared to other primates.

Yes you are right, they are smart compared to most other primates.
We are the smartest of all creatures on this planet, (excluding ET's IF they live here) But have you noticed how smart a Dolphin is? A dolphin is a mammal just as we are and are very intelligent and well adapted, and can understand sign language and sounds.

They are very well-equipped for their own environment, which is likely very similar to that of our common ancestor.

See above comment, this does not prove they are our common ancestor.
We are even more well equipped than the chimps and all other animals, this is not hard to see. Many many other creatures are well adapted aswell.

Evolution isn't targeting the development of intelligent species
just species that can survive in particular environments. We are yet to show we can live in harmony with ours

It isn't? Then why are we Humans getting smarter as time goes by? Why are we making more discoveries as time passes by and chimps aren't? We HAVE shown that we can live in harmony, your living in harmony with your fellow citizens, yes there are murderers, rapists, etc, but we only do these things because we have more understanding and more emotions than chimps and other monkeys. We know the difference between good and evil. Just because nations may be at war or have their differences doesn't mean other millions of people aren't living in harmony.. Chimps fight and have arguments as well, but not to the same complexity as humans do. Same with so many other species, even birds and bugs fight its all part of nature and survival.



[edit on 12/10/07 by MASH_DADDY]

Originally posted by MASH_DADDY
What multiple splits and selection pressures? We never had selection pressures, are you claiming that somewhere down the path we had intercourse with chimps or other types of species? Hmmm this explains the so many types of races and religions that we have today? Where did all these come from?

I think it's going to be hard to explain it to you.

I think another question would be: Why would a human need to survive in the wild? Chimps never have had that capability, but humans have, chimps never made pyramids, or advanced structures, we did.

It's really unclear what you mean here.

Humans do need to survive in the wild. Many do.

Because thats what is programmed in its DNA, to breed with the same type of "primates" similar to itself, have you noticed how different a chimps or gorilla's teeth are to ours? We are not primates and never have been.

By definition we are.

I'm not talking about breeding with conspecifics, I'm talking about descendents. Descendents will be different from their parents, because (1) they are a mix of their genes; but more salient, (2) they will possess maybe 100 or so mutations which can provide novel variation for natural selection to act on. Add millions of years, this can change morphology and behaviour with sufficient evolutionary pressures.

For example, if I take 10000 children and make them swim 200 metres to the shore from the sea for their dinner, giving only the first 2000 food, allowing those who fail to perish, and maybe increase it a tad over time. And do this for 1000 generations of this population which interbreeds. I think we might eventually have a real good population of swimmers. That would be sort of artificial selection, of course, but I'm sure you can apply it generally.

Yes you are right, they are smart compared to most other primates.
We are the smartest of all creatures on this planet, (excluding ET's IF they live here) But have you noticed how smart a Dolphin is? A dolphin is a mammal just as we are and are very intelligent and well adapted, and can understand sign language and sounds.

I know.

See above comment, this does not prove they are our common ancestor.
We are even more well equipped than the chimps and all other animals, this is not hard to see. Many many other creatures are well adapted aswell.

I don't think it was meant to be evidence that that was the case. I don't see the point of even presenting any more for you. I did before and you ignored it and waffled on about random stuff.

What's the point?

It isn't? Then why are we Humans getting smarter as time goes by? Why are we making more discoveries as time passes by and chimps aren't?

I think we may be hitting limits as far as intrinsic intelligence goes. According to IQ tests anyway. Environmental enrichment and education, along with a good diet, can only go so far.

If you are talking about science, then, yeah, I'm sure we will keep making new discoveries. Some for other people to completely ignore and dismiss for religious reasons.

We HAVE shown that we can live in harmony, your living in harmony with your fellow citizens, yes there are murderers, rapists, etc, but we only do these things because we have more understanding and more emotions than chimps and other monkeys. We know the difference between good and evil. Just because nations may be at war or have their differences doesn't mean other millions of people aren't living in harmony.. Chimps fight and have arguments as well, but not to the same complexity as humans.

I think I was talking about living in harmony with the environment. As far as living in harmony with other social groups, we actually tend to be more similar to common chimps than our other cousins, the bonobos. The bonobos know how to solve problems with minimal aggression, check them out.

I'm not sure we have more emotions really. It's pretty hard to tell with the more complex social emotions. They have the same basic emotions (e.g., fear, disgust, sadness, joy, surprise, anger).

I also think chimps have their own moral codes, no doubt less complex than our own. But it seems to do OK for them, until humans come and destroy their environment and eat their brains for bushmeat.

[edit on 12-10-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by 1111111111111
No, we descended from the universe, from a comet millions of years ago. it is a proven fact.
If we descended from apes, that would mean apes/monkeys would be extinct today.

Yeah, but why are there still comets...

The last time that I looked down at my bare feet in the shower, they sure as heck did not appear to be shaped like "hands." The last tine that I held my neighbor's 1 year old daughter in my arms as she feel asleep, I held her tiny foot, & marveled how unique it was as compared to her little hands. All beautiful, all perfect in God's sight.

Our feet are designed to allow us to stand upright, walk, run & perform a great number of tasks. Neanderthal coexisted with sapien-sapiens, eons ago. The Flores "Hobbit" co-existed with us 10K years ago. We "saps" are the last of a dying breed.

Now if there are any podiatrists, doctors, wizards or crystal ball gazers out there that can definitively tell us that we sapiens are descended from apes, please step forward & state your case.

Oh, & one more issue that I may add. All cultures of man, however spread across the planet, steadfastly believe that they originated from the "sky" somehow.

reply to post by DREAMING MAN


um... feet evolved. it's kind of obvious. and you're comparing us to modern apes, not the archaic pre-apes that both humans and modern apes evolved from...

and, on the "sky origin" thing from all cultures... you're wrong. there's a tribe called the pihana (i don't know if i spelled this right) in the amazon, they're atheists. have always been such. no god, no afterlife, no creation myth.

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by 1111111111111
No, we descended from the universe, from a comet millions of years ago. it is a proven fact.
If we descended from apes, that would mean apes/monkeys would be extinct today.

Yeah, but why are there still comets...

what melatonin is trying to say... is basically, the argument you put forth is ridiculous... in a manner of hilarity.

but i have to add... so it went come ->people, straight away?
no, even if the whole comet thing is correct that only laid down the building blocks that would become life eventually.
life didn't exist on the comet, just carbon molecules.
so eventually we get life which keeps going...
and then at the tail end we get all modern life
between that, protoapes evolved into humans and modern apes. there was a divergence

nobody is claiming that we evolved from modern apes

To all the religious people in this forum: I would like to thank you, as you are a never ending source of amusement

I have no reason to prove that the soul exists, I have seen it for myself therefore it IS MY BELIEF, if your read carefully I didn't say this to be fact, ITS MY opinion, I have seen my own soul and seen my own body with my soul, that is MY proof and I don't have any hard evidence, I think it will be a very very long time before we can prove that something as complex and mysterious as the Soul actually exists, just as we proved that atoms exist.

Exactly, it's your opinion, not a fact. So your dismissing tons of very hard evidence because you have a personal belief that we have god made souls.

Sorry but that video doesn't mean jack to me, it's all looked at in a scientific manner without the least regard to religion. So therefore I personally don't agree with it.

Typical Close your eyes !

No, we descended from the universe, from a comet millions of years ago. it is a proven fact.
If we descended from apes, that would mean apes/monkeys would be extinct today.

By far the funniest post yet. On what do you base this "fact"?

[edit on 13-10-2007 by DarkSide]

in reading these posts and some other ones, especially those dealing within ancient cultures/etc. there is a gross misunderstanding of fundamental facts of historic, science, and theology.

I would suggest that before we go blindly shouting out bible quotes or the scientific facts of supposed experts we actually look at the validity of the source materials.

Often if you actually take the time to look into a subject you will find that there is a right answer, it just takes study and understanding.

Those quoting the bible should actually try to read Darwin and Gould and look at the facts, many of the anomalies used as arguments against evolution, are in fact examples of evolution.

Similarly, ardent evolutionary-types should read the bible, not as a holy book, but as a ancient text.

I think if y'all did this instead of depending on nit picky arguements, there is probably a common ground between the two.


and i say this as an anthropologist and an atheist.


[edit on 15-10-2007 by xianh]

[edit on 15-10-2007 by xianh]

Originally posted by MASH_DADDY
What multiple splits and selection pressures? We never had selection pressures, are you claiming that somewhere down the path we had intercourse with chimps or other types of species?

Nice you don’t understand the argument so you toss off an insult implying bestiality, real cleaver.
Here’s the explanation as I understand it, way back in day modern Ethiopia was a jungle, our hominid ancestors lived there quite happily until climate change occurred. The jungle became plains and we had to adapt or die. The way we adapted was to stand up and walk. Meantime in the rest of Africa the ape family continued their lineage in the jungles

Hmmm this explains the so many types of races and religions that we have today? Where did all these come from?

Evolution explains these effect quite elegantly, there are two main stressors pushing evolution on: environmental change and isolation. With environmental change one must adapt or die, thus causing great change, while with evolution due to isolation the changes can be far more insignificant.
This can be demonstrated to day in modern America. There is a cultural difference with whites and blacks across the country; this difference is expressed by the evolution of a new language (Ebonics) complete with a new form of written language.

I think another question would be: Why would a human need to survive in the wild?

Um… you know that there still are people living in the wild right?

have you noticed how different a chimps or gorilla's teeth are to ours?

There are more similarities then you would think, given that there is a 5.5-4.5 million years of divergence between us.

Evolution isn't targeting the development of intelligent species
just species that can survive in particular environments. We are yet to show we can live in harmony with ours

It isn't?

NO.

Then why are we Humans getting smarter as time goes by? Why are we making more discoveries as time passes by and chimps aren't?

We’re not evolving this greater intelligence; we are studying our surrounding and accumulating the knowledge, just as we have for ages past. The intellect we currently have evolved because those whom were able to accumulate the most knowledge about their environment ( what I can/cannot eat, what plants are good for herbal remedies, what animals migrate past here ect.) had a increased likelihood of having offspring that would inherit that gene that knowledge.
Chimps are not building wonders or making great scientific discoveries because they are not that smart and they lack opposable thumbs to utilize pen and paper to transmit complex thoughts and abstract theory from generation to generation.

We HAVE shown that we can live in harmony, your living in harmony with your fellow citizens,

Only due to laws and law enforcement, like most species with large complex societies. To name just few other critters with laws and law enforcement of one type or another bees, chimps, vampire bats ants termites and elephants.

yes there are murderers, rapists, etc, but we only do these things because we have more understanding and more emotions than chimps and other monkeys.

We don’t do these things because of emotional understanding we, commit horrible acts because we want to.

yes there are murderers, rapists, etc, but we only do these things because we have more understanding and more emotions than chimps and other monkeys.

We don’t do these things because of emotional understanding we, commit horrible acts because we want to.


Should I add that murders also happen in chimpanzee societies.