Israel may approve a divided Jerusalem

Most Israelis say no to sharing Jerusalem

Most Israelis oppose sharing Jerusalem with the Palestinians as part of a final peace deal, an opinion poll said on Tuesday after an Israeli minister sparked uproar by suggesting the idea.

Asked whether Israel should agree to "any sort of compromise on Jerusalem" as part of a final deal to end the decades-old Middle East conflict, 63 percent said no, according to the survey in the mass-selling Yediot Aharonot.

Sixty-eight percent oppose transferring Arab neighbourhoods in occupied east Jerusalem to Palestinian control and 61 percent said Israel alone should have sovereignty over the holy places in the Old City, revered by the world's three leading monotheistic religions.

Brietbart

I don't think they have anything to worry about.

I think Olmert is merely blowing smoke. This is not going to happen at all and I'm sure he knows it.

It does however make it SEEM as if the Israeli government wants peace but that usually means a battle is about to ensue in which case we'll hear something like "hey, we tried so it's their fault not ours."

Sorry this whole proposal is highly dubious and I'm very skeptical of the reasoning behind Olmerts publicized suggestion.

reply to post by Sky watcher


Peace can be accomplished, true peace, all we need is for both of this 2 sides to negotiate in good faith for the good or their people and without intervention from other countries, is not without precedent that countries could leave with peace after decades of hostilities.

Israel has been at war with many countries in the region before and now they have stable relations with some of those countries, so why it could not happen here?

reply to post by lee anoma


A part of me was thinking tha same thing, we should see what happens in the coming days or weeks, but like I see this strategy used by Israel before and then used the same arguement that you refer.

Israel has shown some restraint after the rocket attack on the barracks that injured like 60 people like a month and a half, so hopefully this is real and not a diversion from any military action that is about to come.

Only time will tell I guess.

Let armageddon begin.. in the bible it says God will never let isreal stay divided, that it will be a false peace, with a 7 cycle (year?) contract for peace. Well the bible does a vague job of listing the devils conspiritors, you can pretty much assume they will be the good ones, "on tv" and the bad people will be truth tellers in that day, speakers of reality, and those which the words offend who hold power thanks to stupid people (humans) who never listen. have fun (waves byby)

Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar
reply to post by Odium

 

Al-Aqsa is the Temple Mount.

That's not what you claimed nor is that part of the debate and lastly it isn't what I asked you. The Qur'an never calls it the Temple Mount, it mentions it as a Jewish Religious building and that's all.

Here's a full list of it mentioned in the Qur'an:

So her Lord accepted her (i.e. Mary) with a good acceptance and made her grow up a good growing, and gave her into the charge of Zakariya; whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary (i.e. Jewish Temple) to (see) her, he found with her food. He said: O Marium! whence comes this to you? She said: It is from Allah. Surely Allah gives to whom He pleases without measure.

—Qur'an, [Qur'an 3:37]

Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary : That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones.

—Qur'an, [Qur'an 3:39]

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

—Qur'an, [Qur'an 17:1]

If you (i.e. Israelites) do good, you will do good for your own souls, and if you do evil, it shall be for them. So when the second promise came (We raised another people) that they may bring you to grief and that they may enter the mosque (i.e. Jewish Temple) as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy whatever they gained ascendancy over with utter destruction.

—Qur'an, [Qur'an 17:7]

So he (i.e. Zakariya) went forth to his people (i.e. Israelites) from his place of worship, then he made known to them that they should glorify (Allah) morning and evening.

—Qur'an, [Qur'an 19:11]

This is also what you stated:

The Temple Mount was called the Noble Sanctuary in the Qur'an. The area that they now use is enough to hold tens of thousands of people. The Temple Mount was somewhere in the region. Furthermore, according to the Jewish Religion it should only be re-built twice. Clearly someone can't count:
It was built in: 996 BCE
Rebuilt in: 516 BCE
Rebuilt in: 19 BCE

Which means the Messiah should have came around that period. Of course Jesus did, but they didn't like what he had to say now did they? So what Harod did - which was re-build it - should mean that the Messiah came around then.

Interesting, how Muslims say he did come and his vision was twisted to what we see as Christianity.

Notice how Judaism changed when they didn't like Jesus? After all, the Messiah came after Harod's temple.

reply to post by Odium

That's taken from the Qur'an the "Farthest Mosque" is a translation of Al-Aqsa Mosque. That's in Jerusalem. Chapter 17 verse 1 of the Qur'an.

I think you're the one that brought up the farthest mosque. And as I said before, refering to it as a Jewish site means it pre-dates Islam. Not hard, since it wasn't created till the 7th century.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
As much as I want to see peace in Israel/Palestine the comments made by Sky Watcher seem to be the truth. Israel offers to give up more and more and its still not enough for the Palestinians. Im convinced that they will not stop until every Israeli is either dead or flees to another country.

So, think about why? Do you honestly believe that it's simply "They hate Jews!" Of course it's not, the issue is far more complex than that.

So, why to the Palestinians almost never agree to the "offers" by Israel? Because Israel rarely makes good offers. The pullout from Gaza was followed by a heightened invasion of Palestinian territory in the West Bank, both via the wall and more "settlements". I'm certain that this deal to divide Jerusalem, as another poster mentioned, includes keeping al-Aqsa on the Israeli side of the divide. That would hardly be an acceptable deal, even to those of us outside the conflict.

When you delve into the history of negotiations and agreements, you'll notice just how many Israeli offers have unacceptable or offensive riders and conditions attached to them. The goal is the offer the image of diplomacy while still giving provocation. It's a pretty common tool of statecraft between hostile groups, but it could hardly be called an attempt at "peace" or "resolution" and you can hardly blame the Palestinian leadership for not accepting underhanded offers.

As each day goes by, the prospect of a two-state solution looks further and further from a reality, if only because the territory for a Palestinian state just isn't there anymore. Dividing Jerusalem, even if it turns out to be an honest and fair attempt, is not going to do it. The only resolution to this problem is a referendum, held by Israelis and Palestinians, to decide the fate of the entire area. I believe a single state, with an actual constitution granting protections to both Jews and Arabs, would be the best possible solution to this mess. Call it Israelistine or Palesrael.

The Temple Mount (Al Aqsa) is the sight of Israels Temples, and therefore it's holiest site. Only far later did Islam 'adopt' it as its 3rd holiest site. You don't see Israel laying claim to Mecca & Medina. There is the difference. One johnny-come-lately religion has a serious envy of the one that pre-dates it by FAR!

reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar


Uh huh. That's nice.

Your opinion of who's "more deserving" aside, the fact of the matter is, the place is sacred to these two religions, as well as several others (Christians and Druze, for instance). As such, denying one or the other access to the site is unacceptable. It's my opinion that the place should be denationalized. Allowing one hyper-religious state or the other to claim for itself a multi-religious holy site is just asking for trouble, wouldn't you agree?

Oh, and if you want to argue that it should be exclusively Jewish, you could at least use the Hebrew name for the place, rather than the Arabic: Har ha-Bayit. You look a little confused, otherwise.

[edit on 9-10-2007 by TheWalkingFox]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


I suppose you think your solution is something new? The Bible said that this is exactly what the nations of the world would try. You're terribly late and don't even realize it. Someone is confused alright!

As to your names. You say potatoe I say pototo. A childs game. Spare me.

reply to post by Bunch


While I agree that the Palestinians certainly have a part to play in this and that the ball may be in their court, so to speak, a true peace plan will have to go far beyond just dividing Jerusalem.

The 'so-called' "best offer" that the Palestinians were given at Camp David was hardly an offer at all -- no removal of Israeli Settlements or halt to their growth, no control of airspace or coast, no control of their own borders, no offer for removal of the wall or any sections of it -- and worst of all, most sections of 'Palestine' would have been cut off from each other by Israeli Settlements, by Bypass roads and so on. These are all issues that must be addressed too, if there is to be a true and lasting peace.

Just look at these figures: During the 7 years of the Oslo 'peace process', in fact during EVERY peace process between Israel and the Palestinians -- Israeli Settlements have expanded and grown and their populations significantly increased. During Oslo, it almost doubled.
FMEP: Settlement Statistics

Don't get me wrong -- I think this shows great hope and promise for the region, but I just hope that Israel realizes that this is not the only concession it will have to make for peace and security.

Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

I suppose you think your solution is something new? The Bible said that this is exactly what the nations of the world would try. You're terribly late and don't even realize it. Someone is confused alright!

As to your names. You say potatoe I say pototo.

A childs game. Spare me.

Good for the bible. Two points to the Hebraic tent god. At this rate he'll be catching up to Vishnu in a few centuries. Can we give the theological eccentricities a rest for the moment, though? They just cloud the issue of what's really going on.

There will be no Palestinian state. It's a shell game being played by Israel and the U.S. to get the world off of Israel's back.

Just watch, even is a so-called state is created, Israel will not respect either its soverignity nor its borders. Wait and watch what happens when a militant not happy with the arrangement strikes within Israel. All pretensions will go right out the window.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

Can we give the theological eccentricities a rest for the moment, though? They just cloud the issue of what's really going on.

Actually they are at the very heart of what is going on. The need to control Jerusalem is based in religious beliefs. To say that they cloud the issue is misguided IMO. But, whatever, I don't feel the need to discuss it if you don't. Peace

Originally posted by grover

Just watch, even is a so-called state is created, Israel will not respect either its soverignity nor its borders. Wait and watch what happens when a militant not happy with the arrangement strikes within Israel. All pretensions will go right out the window.

And what fault would that be? I hope if Israel and Palestine come to any kind of agreement, some security procedures are establish either by both states or with the help of the international community.

If the extremist elements on both sides wants to disrupt the process they should be dealt with and punish accordingly.

You don't understand what I am saying do you?

As soon as there is some attack Israel will cross the border and deal with it themselves... the air strike assassinations will continue and economic pressures will not change.

This Palestinian state is all a paper tiger. I will never have and legs because Israel will never allow it to.

reply to post by grover


Were I disagree with you if is that you believe that the extremist on the Palestinian side can not be controlled, defeated and that Israel or Palestine can not restrain themselves from attacking.

Extremist can be defeated but is has to start from the inside, the Palestinian State if created are going to know that in order for their state to prosper they are going to have to denounce terror and attack it from the inside, and international force can be put in place in case of an attack by terrorist takes place in Israel they could take action, and actually I believe that if a two state solution takes place and put in effect, I think both sides would be target of attack by islamist extremist or Jewish extremist that would try to send the region back into chaos,

You could even find a scenario were islamist extremist will attack Palestine for what they would consider treason and Jewish extremist doing the same in Israel, both can be defeated IMO. Help from the international community in the form of economic aide and peace keepers.

This could work I don't know why you are so down about the prospects, hope for peace man, is better than what we have now.

reply to post by Bunch


The reasons I believe the way I do are many but more than anything the extremists on both sides are fueled by groups outside of the area... from the west are the Christian Zionists and the hard line conservative Jews who believe all the area is theirs. And on the Palestinian side of course are Hamas and Hezbullah and the forces that back them.

Really the only real solution is a joint Israeli/Palestinian state with shared power, which will eventually happen but not without a lot of kicking and screaming.

I yea right they offer to give the Palestinians 1/2 of 22% in disconected bantustans to the Palestinians..and IT'S STILL not enough for the Palestinians..gee they're just so unreasonable

Originally posted by ChrisF231
As much as I want to see peace in Israel/Palestine the comments made by Sky Watcher seem to be the truth. Israel offers to give up more and more and its still not enough for the Palestinians. Im convinced that they will not stop until every Israeli is either dead or flees to another country.

reply to post by Bunch


however it becomes divided before "all hell breaks lose" it is prophecied to happen anyway.G-D says They will bring all nations against jerusalem and judah -zechariah 14:1-4-just before Messiah comes and vaporizes israels and His enemies-verse 12.in order for this prophecy to occure judah had to be dwelling in its land again-------and here we are----just on the edge of this worlds king satan being deposed and G-Ds king taking over.satan is the present "god" of this world----see matthew 4:8-9 and job 1 and 2.human beings dont want their Creator so They have given us a substitute more to our present liking until it all blows up in our faces to the point of us destroying all life on earth.we now have enough weaponry to destroy 50 worlds like our own-----what kind of logical sense does this make?