Theists, what would convince you to stop believing?

As far as I am concerned there are so many things God can do to provide conclusive, lasting proof that he existed and was supernatural.

Build an indestructible time machine.

Carve a giant canyon into the moon which says "GOD" in cursive, and fill it with a substance which burns brightly, forever.

Produce an almanac which precisely predicts 1 "unpredictable" natural event per year for the next billion years.

Place a glowing orb at the top of mt. Everest and another the bottom of the ocean, which pulse in a synchronized but unpredictable fashion.

What would it take to convince you that God doesn't exist?

this is nice

turnabout is fair play, after all

Flagged & starred.

MIMS is absolutely correct, turnabout is fair play. However, I sincerely doubt you're going to get any answers from the people the post is actually directed at.

But then, I've been known to be incorrect before.

I can answer what convinced me to stop believing: lack of evidence.

But then, I'm not a theist, am I? Did I just derail the thread?

God's too easy to see for me to stop believing.

In all honesty, nothing could stop me believing that God is real. I have seen to many things that cannot be explained any other way. I suppose i could stop praying and going to church but i would still know that he is there.
So many Christians experience God in so many ways that they would need some concrete proof of some sort to say that what they are experiencing was not from God. Saying it may be this or it may be that will not sway anyone from their faith.
A God experience is very powerful and takes peoples faith to new heights.
Just my view
jon

Originally posted by jon1
In all honesty, nothing could stop me believing that God is real. I have seen to many things that cannot be explained any other way. I suppose i could stop praying and going to church but i would still know that he is there.
So many Christians experience God in so many ways that they would need some concrete proof of some sort to say that what they are experiencing was not from God. Saying it may be this or it may be that will not sway anyone from their faith.
A God experience is very powerful and takes peoples faith to new heights.
Just my view
jon

My question is "If you were to think about it, what do you think would convince you [God doesn't exist]? Not how much faith you have...

I appreciate both yours and DEPTH OM views, I am not trying to make you think otherwise, Faith seems to be what gives you belief.

What about people who do not have faith, do you regard that as their failure or God's failure to reach them?

Does it not bother you that if you were born in China or Lebanon you would believe in a completely different God?

My question is "If you were to think about it, what do you think would convince you [God doesn't exist]? Not how much faith you have...

Like i said, in all honesty there is nothing that i can think of that would convince me that God does not exist.

I appreciate both yours and DEPTH OM views, I am not trying to make you think otherwise, Faith seems to be what gives you belief.

No it doesn't. you start off with a little belief and then your faith grows as you experience God in your life. I have so much faith because of the things that i have seen and done in Gods name. Might seem a little whacko to you but that it the truth of it.

What about people who do not have faith, do you regard that as their failure or God's failure to reach them?

I don't really see it as a failure, as people come to faith at different times in their lives. I was 47 before i came to faith.

Does it not bother you that if you were born in China or Lebanon you would believe in a completely different God?

Yes it does. I often wonder about that problem and I wish i had a real answer to it.

Hope my answers give you a little more insight to where i am coming from as a Christian.
jon.

reply to post by jon1


so not even 100% irrefutable proof that there is no god?
what about proof that thor exists, would that convince you that your god doesn't?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by jon1

 

so not even 100% irrefutable proof that there is no god?
what about proof that thor exists, would that convince you that your god doesn't?

!00% proof would i suppose but not 99%.I can't think what that proof could possibly be though. I have an open mind to most things otherwise i would not have believed in God to ask him into my life in the first place.
As for thor, i suppose i put him in the same place as you put my God at the moment. With the tooth fairy.
Can't say fairer than that.
jon

[edit on 8-10-2007 by jon1]

[edit on 8-10-2007 by jon1]

Originally posted by jon1


Hope my answers give you a little more insight to where i am coming from as a Christian.
jon.

Yes, I do understand what you are saying and thanks for the insight.

How do you react to the existence of so much gratuitous evil and suffering in the world?

I am thinking of children starving to death, tsunamis and other natural disasters.

Do you believe in the classical description of God, Omnipotent, Omniscient Omni benevolent?

Originally posted by jon1

Does it not bother you that if you were born in China or Lebanon you would believe in a completely different God?

Yes it does. I often wonder about that problem and I wish i had a real answer to it.

It's a problem for people to believe something else now? People theses day, thinking their religion is so much better than everyone else. Just makes me sick...

Originally posted by Ersatz

Originally posted by jon1


Hope my answers give you a little more insight to where i am coming from as a Christian.
jon.

Yes, I do understand what you are saying and thanks for the insight.

How do you react to the existence of so much gratuitous evil and suffering in the world?

I am thinking of children starving to death, tsunamis and other natural disasters.

Do you believe in the classical description of God, Omnipotent, Omniscient Omni benevolent?

It breaks my heart to see all the suffering in the world, especially people starving through lack of food. The thing is, God has provided enough food for all of us, it's mans greed that makes it not available to others.
I was talking to a woman that i had never seen before in a cafe and she was telling me about all the good work that she does with the elderly. She told me about the annual luxury cruises that she goes on but when i mentioned that i have traveled the world and had she been anywhere where people are starving and how bad it is, she said that it was their own fault because they are all fat and walk around in flip flops all day, they are to lazy to work.
See the problem, she has to think like that to justify her lack of compassion for these people and to rid herself of the guilt for her annual cruises. We are all like that to some extent or other. Yes, it's mans fault that people starve.

As for natural disasters, I can only say that we live on a planet that is alive and able to sustain life. These things happen as part of the natural process. Man knows the problems but still decides to live at the bases of volcanoes or at the waters edge.
You are going to ask me why does God let these things happen.
Well, he can interfere, take away our free will and control how we think and act towards each other or he can let us get on with life and try to sort the problems out ourselves. Which would you choose.
Please remember that these are just my views. I havn't really asked other Christians how they would answer these questions.
Cheers
jon.

Originally posted by AncientVoid

Originally posted by jon1

Does it not bother you that if you were born in China or Lebanon you would believe in a completely different God?

Yes it does. I often wonder about that problem and I wish i had a real answer to it.

It's a problem for people to believe something else now? People theses day, thinking their religion is so much better than everyone else. Just makes me sick...

Wow, I think you have jumped the gun there. how can you possibly know what i think going off that one line statement.
It's not a problem for me if people want to believe in some other faith but i do wish it was easier and we all believed in the same God.
The thing is, as a Christian i am told that the only way to God is through Jesus. So do i think that i am better than anyone else? NO, i do think that i am fortunate though that i have picked Christianity as my faith. I pray that we all get to heaven when the time comes but that is beyond my control i'm afraid.

Originally posted by jon1


It breaks my heart to see all the suffering in the world, especially people starving through lack of food. The thing is, God has provided enough food for all of us, it's mans greed that makes it not available to others.
I was talking to a woman that i had never seen before in a cafe and she was telling me about all the good work that she does with the elderly. She told me about the annual luxury cruises that she goes on but when i mentioned that i have traveled the world and had she been anywhere where people are starving and how bad it is, she said that it was their own fault because they are all fat and walk around in flip flops all day, they are to lazy to work.

See the problem, she has to think like that to justify her lack of compassion for these people and to rid herself of the guilt for her annual cruises. We are all like that to some extent or other. Yes, it's mans fault that people starve.

As for natural disasters, I can only say that we live on a planet that is alive and able to sustain life. These things happen as part of the natural process. Man knows the problems but still decides to live at the bases of volcanoes or at the waters edge.
You are going to ask me why does God let these things happen.
Well, he can interfere, take away our free will and control how we think and act towards each other or he can let us get on with life and try to sort the problems out ourselves. Which would you choose.
Please remember that these are just my views. I havn't really asked other Christians how they would answer these questions.
Cheers
jon.

Fair enough, it is a sufficiently thought out response; not completely based on faith.


As you guessed I am going to ask you why God lets these things happen because it is a question that returns again and again.

Epicurus, a Greek philosopher, in order to explain why he was a non believer; witnessing the continuous existence of Evil asked this question:

God does not know that evil is there. (Not Omniscient)

God knows Evil is there but cannot prevent it. (Not Omnipotent)

God can prevent Evil but will not. ( Malevolent)

God is neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

What is Jon response to this?

reply to post by Ersatz

God does not know that evil is there. (Not Omniscient)

God is well aware of the evil that is present on earth because a lot of mine and other peoples prayers tell him so.

God knows Evil is there but cannot prevent it. (Not Omnipotent)
God can prevent Evil but will not. ( Malevolent)

My wife who is a priest has a ministry in dealing with spirits, the occult and things that go bump in the night, the way she rids people or places of these is by asking God to remove them. Nine times out of ten he does.
Evil done by people comes down to free will. Does he control your thoughts and actions or do you?

jon

Originally posted by jon1

Evil done by people comes down to free will. Does he control your thoughts and actions or do you?

jon

Unfortunately I have to be away from civilisation for a while, I will catch up when I get back.

Thanks for talking to me.

What would it take to convince you that God doesn't exist?

If the Earth and it's inhabitants were facing imminent annihilation and there was no salvation forthcoming for humankind in its entirety.

reply to post by Ersatz


It's a valid question, and one that I often answered in my first couple of years here. There were many things I was unsure of, and would state quite often that, if what I believe isn't true, I don't want to waste my time believing it. Even Paul said,

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (1 Corinthians 15:13-19)

I have never been one to accept something by blind faith, and it was years of addressing and researching many of the big supposed contradictions in scripture, always wondering if this would be the one that had no answer, that would show that the time I spent in Christ was wasted. Yet, over the years, as time and again those difficult questions were answered as I dug into it, my understanding and trust in God changed.

I went from wondering if this new questions would be the end to, instead, wondering what God was going to reveal to me in investigating the next question. And believe me, I still question a lot of common understanding of scripture, and when I find what appears to be a contradiction in scripture, I typically dive in deep to understand now, but now with the confidence that God is going to show me even more about Himself through that research, not that He may not be real.

it would take for him to come to me and tell me himself that he doesnt exist.....

on a more serious note...i dont think i'll ever stop believing in a god.
when i turned 12, i rebelled, like most, against what i was raised with....i was raised in a christian home and i questioned every aspect of it...and let it....i always knew there was a god.....but who or what it was...who or what was right....i had no idea...but after six years of soul searching....i came back to christianity...even after searching that's where it lead me....

so i dont think anything but nothing after death will convince me God does not exist....but then it wont matter

If it was scientifically proven that there was no Afterlife, by an independently funded researcher, who's genuinely unbiased in either respect and was a genius in his own right, it would affect me and my belief big time.

Yes I realize that there can be a God with no afterlife, but that is not the way I interpret God at all. And since God is supposed to be like me except a bizillion times better and wiser, he certainly would find no wisdom in doing that.

So if we all perma-fade out when we die, and theres no other side, no such thing as ghosts, no such thing as a spirit or soul, no such thing as a God, no such thing as ANYTHING.. well then I'd no longer believe.

I'd be depressed for a while, but I'd get over it. Then I'd become an opportunistic manipulative arsehole who didn't have any good reason to be the great person I am. I'm just joking, I wouldn't start robbing people.

[edit on 10/12/2007 by runetang]