Would you convert to Islam if threatened with the sword?

reply to post by bodrul


bodrul, what an utter hoard of hog wash, truely.

you honestly think Islam is all about peace and love?

that muslims are taught via the qu'ran to as you had quoted "respect the religions of others"?

are you frikkin' kidding me bro?

open your eyes and look at the world. dont worry about what im saying, look at the world man. so muslims respect the religions of others? no way jose. there are moderates who do by not actively bad mouth others and actively attacking/killing others, but that group of moderates in the arab muslim world is like .. half of the people or less. not "the vast majority".

muslims cant even respect each other. they're too busy killing each other over who should've been the rightful 4th Imam. this is what Shia Islam started from. Every suicide bomber, or even a remote detonated bomber, is willfully killing fellow muslims, even if their target is an infidel american. how do they live with this? their explanation? "in Jihad, all muslims goto Allah who die". So I get it, if you kill muslims in your Jihad against whoever, and they die unknowingly in the process, they get an automatic ticket to heaven. I get it .. what utter nonsense. Now THAT is twisted.. might as well Nuke America, even though millions of muslims live here, they'll all unknowingly become martyrs right? Give me a break, okay Al-qaeda?

The religion is weak as a whole that's why it needs force such as beheading people so they continue to follow it. Good old Mo with his weak religion he needed to build an army back in the day just so people would listen to him what a little man and bully he was just a product of his environment and followed the way christainity was similarily brought onto people by the sword back in the day yet nothing's really changed in the foundations of Islam, No other religion, at the current time, issues forth such barbaric and inhumane practices. Religion of peace yeah right.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by SR]

Originally posted by babloyi
How sweet and polite you are!

Some things you might want to know:
About islamqa.com - It is interesting, that by typing "Islam" into Google, you can get a number of very useful sites on the 1st page. Why did you choose islamqa?
About abrogation
About abrogation
About Al-Hadeed - It is Surah 57, not 27
About al-Faroosiyyah - It is neither a book of the Quran, nor is it from the Hadeeth. It has no relevance to Islam.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by babloyi]

Do you always answer a question with a question?

The Quran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear, the religion for all Mankind and yet I provided an Islamic site to which you have objections.

Had I provided a non Islamic site you still would have had objections, you are in a "win win" situation.

Yet all these Hadiths / Tafseers sometimes in conflict with each other, plus heaps of sects like Shia, Yaqubiyya, Hanafiyah, Malekiya, Hanbaliya, Shafaaya,Ismieliya, Quran Alone etc,etc each one has its own tafseers.

And since the Quran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not -- as even speakers of Arabic will tell you --So evidently Quran is not what its claim for itself.

You are obviously aware of the practice known as taqiyya, which essentially means to lie for the sake of Islam.

The intention is to deceive unbelievers about Islam, for the explicit purpose of assuaging doubts and concerns about Islam, and encouraging conversion.

Taqiyya underlies the whole gamut of Muslim propaganda which is disseminated in the West, like the claim that Islam promotes equal rights for women, Islam is a peaceful religion, it even attempts to inflate the perceived number of Muslims.

So tell me about the "verse of the sword"

reply to post by runetang


Yes

Islam Is about Peace
Yes Muslims are taught to respect others (i come from a long line of hafiz and imans) so dont give me this BS because i know more about my faith then you or any other none muslim around.

what you see in the media is only the tip of the iceberg

Yes Muslims are fighting, yes some muslims preach hate, Yes some muslims teach their young to hate and so on. but before you open your trout look at the countries these happens in and the people that preach them and their history as most of these occurs in poor or unstable areas ravaged by war or famine.

tell me there arent christians, jews and so on that dont preach hate and so on

(i seem to see alot on ATS who dont take love theig neigbour and so forth to heart and so on )

also look up the true definition of JIHAD, it means struggle, ones way to better them selves and beat their inner demans. (which has been repeated on ATS MANY TIMES)

i wont reply to the nuclear stuff as its just BS and has nothing to with the topic you started

, this is one reason i try and keep away from islamic topics on ATS as the other side always tends to sprout BS or start getting aggresive if they dont like what they see


[edit on 7-10-2007 by bodrul]

So do you want Sharia Rule implented in the UK then?

Bodrul, please answer me this, if Islam has so many good teachings, why are so many Muslim countries so terrible? Saudi Arabia, what I would call the "nexus" of Islam, as it houses Makkah, has such a poor human rights history; human rights are almost non-existent there.

Women are treated by law as inferior to men, they cannot have a job, they cannot drive. There is no freedom of religion, they treat Christians on a "don't ask, don't tell basis.", and if I recall, Jews can't even enter the country (although that extreme law is mainly because of Zionism, so that is a different problem of generalization all together.). I don't even want to know what they would do to Kafirs, like me, there... ._.

They torture you and/or kill you for homosexuality, for converting to another faith, among other things. And they cite the Koran as the reason they do this. Why? Is it just that the book, like the Bible, is so hypocritical that you can find justification in it to be a terrorist, and also justification in it to be Mother Teresa? Why are Abrahamic texts so confusing, hypocritical, and nonsensical?

Originally posted by Ersatz
Do you always answer a question with a question?

Which question did I answer with another question? Were you seriously asking if I was mentally dense? BTW, you still haven't answered my original question. Have you read the passages from which you (or some website) got those quotes?

Originally posted by Ersatz
Had I provided a non Islamic site you still would have had objections, you are in a "win win" situation.

Why don't you pick up something from the Quran and show it? What is clear/unclear? I would have no way of denying that. Why go to suspicious websites?

Originally posted by Ersatz
You are obviously aware of the practice known as taqiyya, which essentially means to lie for the sake of Islam.

The intention is to deceive unbelievers about Islam, for the explicit purpose of assuaging doubts and concerns about Islam, and encouraging conversion.

Taqiyya underlies the whole gamut of Muslim propaganda which is disseminated in the West, like the claim that Islam promotes equal rights for women, Islam is a peaceful religion, it even attempts to inflate the perceived number of Muslims.

You are obviously unclear with the practice known as taqiyya. It is used to preserve one's life in the case of danger if the truth is told. So if someone asked if a person was muslim, and there was a danger if they replied they were, they are permitted to say that they are not. Getting someone to convert by lying to them would be a false conversion, as they'd have an incorrect impression of Islam. That has nothing to do with taqiyya.

reply to post by Kacen


Kacen, it's not the religion that's to blame, per se, but the fundamentalist approach to interpretation of it.

fundamentalism in any form is extremism and is dangerous.

We have factions of fundamentalists in America right now that would love to persecute gays, atheists, other religions just the same as certain Islamic countries do at the moment, but for now our Constitution and Bill of Rights are still protecting us.

The movie Jesus Camp illustrates this quite poignantly.

Fundamentalism is the danger, not any one particular religion.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
reply to post by Kacen

 

Kacen, it's not the religion that's to blame, per se, but the fundamentalist approach to interpretation of it.

fundamentalism in any form is extremism and is dangerous.

We have factions of fundamentalists in America right now that would love to persecute gays, atheists, other religions just the same as certain Islamic countries do at the moment, but for now our Constitution and Bill of Rights are still protecting us.

The movie Jesus Camp illustrates this quite poignantly.

Fundamentalism is the danger, not any one particular religion.

Who said I was defending Christianity? I view both religions as negative, confusing, and hypocritical; Abrahamic texts in general, in fact. There are Christians who are good people, as well as Muslims, but the fact that justification for fundamentalism is in both the Bible and the Koran is enough to unnerve me, and to show me that the religions are just cold, unfeeling, and flawed; I get nothing out of them. All I feel is a cold, heartless void of hypocrisy and absence of love.

To put it simply, as much as I hate to say this, a Muslim like Bodrul, for all I know, has convinced himself so much that those people aren't true Muslims that he believes it. Goddess forbid, perhaps if Muhammad was around today he would consider Al Qaeda to be true Muslims. It is just the fact that they find justification for terrorism in that book that is enough for me to say that it is phony and hypocritical and just confusing.

They are dedicated, very dedicated, I doubt they would misread something. I can't see how people who have enough faith to commit suicide and murder thousands of people could do that with a mis-interpretation. I'm having trouble trying to explain this, I hope you understand what I am trying to say; this is part of my frustration.

Originally posted by runetang
you honestly think Islam is all about peace and love?

that muslims are taught via the qu'ran to as you had quoted "respect the religions of others"?

are you frikkin' kidding me bro?

open your eyes and look at the world. dont worry about what im saying, look at the world man. so muslims respect the religions of others? no way jose.

wow, i would say the exact same thing about christians!

reply to post by Kacen


I do, and I wasn't trying to frustrate you. Just discussing for the sake of the intellectual exercise.

Originally posted by Kacen
To put it simply, as much as I hate to say this, a Muslim like Bodrul, for all I know, has convinced himself so much that those people aren't true Muslims that he believes it. Goddess forbid, perhaps if Muhammad was around today he would consider Al Qaeda to be true Muslims. It is just the fact that they find justification for terrorism in that book that is enough for me to say that it is phony and hypocritical and just confusing.

i guess this is just invisible to you?
also if our prohphet was around he would dispise whats going on as he has said so many times never harm anyone innacent

Originally posted by bodrul
Yes Muslims are fighting, yes some muslims preach hate, Yes some muslims teach their young to hate and so on.

quote from my previous reply



[edit on 7-10-2007 by bodrul]

I will admit I'm no expert on my Bible. Nor will I pretend to be a expert on the KJV Bible. I take Bodrul's word on Islam with a grain of salt because I know he's no expert.

But no I will not convert to Islam even if I'm threated with a sword.

If I get yelled at for this ok but thats how I feel.

You know, who in this day in age is going to be threatened with a sword? More like an AK-47.

...sorry just trying to liven-up the mood.

Originally posted by Kacen
You know, who in this day in age is going to be threatened with a sword? More like an AK-47.

...sorry just trying to liven-up the mood.

No kidding!

I think if I was threatened by a sword, yeah I'd still be scared but I would have to laugh to myself just a bit.

In all honesty, and maybe I am weak to say this, but yes I would just to same my children. Not to mention, how could we as people rise above and rebel and revolt against such an overtaking if we were all dead?

I don't even want to get into the religion side of the debate. This is the decision I would make if ANY religion or nation took over the world. I'm sure it was a decision people made in ancient times, in Nazi Germany, and in places all over the world even today.

Originally posted by babloyi

Why don't you pick up something from the Quran and show it? What is clear/unclear? I would have no way of denying that. Why go to suspicious websites?

What does Allah precisely say to Iblis?

# Have some passages in the Quran been abrogated?

# How many angels spoke to Mary?

# How long is Allah's day?

# Who chooses the devils to be friends of unbelievers?

# Was Pharaoh drowned or saved?

# Will all Christians go to hell?

# Does Muhammad ask for a fee?

# How should Jews and Christians be treated?

# Which came first, heaven or earth?

# Will Allah forgive anything?

# How many angels fought for Muhammad?

# Is each person free to believe (or disbelieve) in whatever he or she wants?

# How long did it take to create the heavens and the earth?

# What was man created from?

# Is Allah merciful?

# Does Allah make distinctions between His messengers?

# Who was the first Muslim?

# Did one of Noah's sons die in the flood?

# Does everything obey Allah?

# When did the people repent for worshiping the golden calf?

# Could Allah have a son?

# Can a man treat his wives fairly?

# Did Pharaoh's wizards believe in Moses and Allah?

The Point I was making when I said unclear is that you interpret the Quran in one way and other Muslims interpret it other ways, there is obviously something unclear if that is the case


Some Muslims say there is compulsion you say there is no compulsion.

Some Muslims say women have equal rights some others say women are inferior.

Some Muslims say that Apostates should be killed other say that is not the case.

Some Muslims admit Islam was spread by the Sword others insist that Islam is not.


You can read about Al Taqiyya here:

www.al-islam.org...

Originally posted by bodrul

also if our prohphet was around he would dispise whats going on as he has said so many times never harm anyone innacent


[edit on 7-10-2007 by bodrul]

Here are some fine examples from the life of the "kind and gentle" Muhammad,

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."

And again:

Some people got sick in Madina. The Prophet advised them to drink camel's urine and milk. After they became well, they killed a shepherd. The Prophet ordered that their hands and feet be chopped off and their eyes gouged out. They were laid on burning sand. When they asked for water it was denied them. So much so that they tasted sand until they died (Kitabul Mahrabain and Kitabut Tib p.254).


Here is another quote from the well known Sira of Ibn Hisham;

“The apostle had ordered that every adult of Banu Qurayza (Jewish tribe) should be killed... Then the apostle went out to the market of Madina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches... There were 600 or 700... Then the apostle divided the property, wives and children of Banu Qurayza among the Muslims... The apostle had chosen one of the women for himself, Rayhana daughter of Amr"


Very exemplary behavior.

Originally posted by Ersatz

Here is another quote from the well known Sira of Ibn Hisham;

“The apostle had ordered that every adult of Banu Qurayza (Jewish tribe) should be killed... Then the apostle went out to the market of Madina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches... There were 600 or 700... Then the apostle divided the property, wives and children of Banu Qurayza among the Muslims... The apostle had chosen one of the women for himself, Rayhana daughter of Amr"

I just wanted to grab this one quote from the Qu'ran. Isn't this sick? This is encouraged as proper behavior for Islam. The reason I said 'threatened with the sword' is because in Islam there is a tradition, as you read here, of cutting off the head of your enemy to kill them. Why? Because it is heinous and instills terror into us. We fear it, and so we fear them, see?

Now in the Bible the only stories of mass murder are those which are being carried out against Polytheists, or usually Idolaters. Any Monotheist knows that killing another Monotheist is one of the worst things they can do on Earth, except Muslims. They don't think that; they think it's okay to kill Christians and Jews because they are not Muslims and therefore Infidels and evil. Same for Hindus ...

This is why it's pretty clear to me that The False Prophet referred to in Revelation is Muhammad, and his ways are Qu'ran, to strike out against the unbelievers, as it is written in Revelation. Besides, what people on Earth could fill the role of the evil one's minions? Unless you are thinking about an "Atheist army" of Chinese Communists, I can't think of a single group or nation or religion that would more closely and accurately represent the group of people depicted in Revelation that will follow the False Prophet and become the army of the evil one. This kind of thing never happens without deception. The evil one's followers will feel in their heart that they are worshipping the proper God and living properly.

Even in the earliest books, like Genesis, there are pointing clues. Ishamel, Patriarch of all Arabs, was sent away with his Mother east into Arabia. They found a well (zamzam well - still there today) and began living there. The Arabs take Ishmael as their main ancestor. In the Bible it is written that when Ishmael was exiled off, God said "I too shall give him a nation, and his hand shall be against all people". In other words, violent against all people?

Sounds about right..

[edit on 10/8/2007 by runetang]

There is no way that I would convert to some religion whose ideas should have died in the 9th century. :shk: They would just have to behead me, I'm afraid.

Nope I wouldnt convert to any religion?

Why?

1) I am ultra lazy, I mean I could lie and say sure dirkadirkajihad I'm a muslim now woot me..

2) can you just imagine how cool it'd be to die by having your head chopped off? Only if they do it uber style and take my head off in one fell swoop!


3) I like casual sex.