A few thoughts for those who think engaging Iran militarily would be disastrous for America

Originally posted by Sky watcher
And where did you study? I was taught here in America not some third world country.

I think they tried to teach both of us the same old nonsense but that i had started my own reading campaign soon enough to not get completely caught in their webs of misinformation.

You don't like America and you think just about everyone can beat us and thats your opinion.

That is not my opinion! I have a great deal of sympathy with American citizens and why wouldn't i given how mistreated they are? I do not think EVERYONE can beat the US and what i do claim is that the US armed forces is not being allowed to succeed in it's foreign adventures.

We here in America back up what we say with action not some Communist propaganda from the Internet.

Right and i would love to see your sources so i may have a reason to present more of mine.

If things come to blows with Iran and the U.S. beats the tar out of them I will be here laughing thinking about the frown on your face.

The Iranians wont deserve what they get and i will feel as sorry for them as i have felt for all the other societies that have been destroyed by the US national security states corporate imperialist agenda. As i said before i don't see how Iran can protect it's industrial and civilian infrastructure against a US air campaign for any extended period of time. I think a ground invasion will stretch the US armed forces beyond capacity but that the Iranians probably wont have any means to prevent a major US attempt to invade and conquer their country.

Stellar

We wont try to conquer or occupy Iran, Most of the free world wants the Iranian people to give the crazy Islamic government the boot so they can be free of the brutal regime. I think they would if we would give them a helping hand somehow.

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by Sky watcher
And where did you study? I was taught here in America not some third world country.

what i do claim is that the US armed forces is not being allowed to succeed in it's foreign adventures.
Your right about that!!

The Iranians wont deserve what they get and i will feel as sorry for them as i have felt for all the other societies that have been destroyed by the US national security states corporate imperialist agenda. As i said before i don't see how Iran can protect it's industrial and civilian infrastructure against a US air campaign for any extended period of time. I think a ground invasion will stretch the US armed forces beyond capacity but that the Iranians probably wont have any means to prevent a major US attempt to invade and conquer their country.

Stellar

The people no, Their leaders yes

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Most of the free world wants the Iranian people to give the crazy Islamic government the boot so they can be free of the brutal regime. I think they would if we would give them a helping hand somehow.

Most of the Free world wants to wave goodbye to GW Bush too. The world wont miss either of these two. Im interested to see how history will write GW.

Peace

Read a lot of the ideas posted here. It’s not my place to judge the mental abilities of those who post here, and definitely I’ll stay away from venturing ideas of my own.
However, I would like to ask a few questions, and hope that I will be educated by those who will decide to answer. Also trust that others will simply “think” about the answers and… “get educated in the process”.

One thing that I know for sure is that every single one of us caries with her/him a picture of “what the world is” and one of “how the world should be”. While in general it is my belief that “how the world should be” is something most of us agree upon, it is… “what the world is”….. that separates us.

I trust that most of you would agree with the facts below.

Democracy comes from the Greek “Demos – Cratos” ( People – Strength/Power) and is generally accepted that it means “Power of the People” or a form of government where the “people” ( through certain “checks and balances” ) have control of their “leaders” and…. not the other way around.

I understood, from way back in my teens, that America …. WAS A DEMOCRACY, which gave me the impression that “people” had a voice, in the managing of their country, stronger than people in other countries where governing was done by benevolent autocrats, military dictators, religious dictators, etc. etc.

Now, in so far as Iran and the necessary course of action is concerned, I’m wondering if the American Government and the course of action it has taken so far, as well the one it intends to take from now on, represents… “the will of the American People”.

Otherwise saying my question is….

Is America a DEMOCRACY ?

And based on that……

Would the American Government consider a national referendum regarding the direction it takes when it comes to “foreign policy”. ?

Of course the point may be made that the majority of Americans could hardly point Iran ( or other countries for that matter ) on the map. How good it would be to let that kind of people decide the direction a country is heading, one may ask?

Yet, if that's the case….

Could you still answer the “Is America a DEMOCRACY” question… affirmatively ?

If not….

What kind of “form of government” does America enjoy ?


In so far as “attacking Iran” while looking at the whole thing from the sidelines, and thinking that it would be the most idiotic thing to do “ AS FAR AS AMERICA and THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED” I’d bet by “bottom dollar” that….. it will happen.
The only thing that concerns me is the validity to this day of the saying … “ What goes around….. “ ( for sure you know the rest :-)) ).
And yes, as I’m also looking at the recorded history of our world,… certain parallels come to mind ; the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, etc. etc.

It is so sad that we human are far less wise than we consider ourselves to be. To those who, for one reason or other, advocate “war” (regardless the reasons and/or the consequences) I would suggest reading a bit of history. Your bellicose intentions may suffer, and those who advocate a peaceful coexistence may triumph. Once more !

So sad we only learn only from PAIN ( and even then we tend to repeat past mistakes ).

In closing, I’d like to know what the majority thinks.

Is Iran is the only country in the world with a repressive government ?

If not…..

Would the America consider attacking any other country which does not align with “America’s idea of what the world should be like”?

And having said this,...

Would those “who vote in favor of the war” volunteer their sons and daughters to become “cannon fodder” for the future wars ?


I trust that your responses will be many and detailed. I’m sure we all can learn something from them.

Thank you !

I so much agree with you. Even the morons that have posted threads and replys saying its cost us a trillion dollars and etc. What would've it cost if we had Al Gore as President. Several thousand citizens here in America, and several Billion if not trillion dollars damage these nuts cases could've caused. There was WMD in Iraq. Just like all the other nuts here they can't see past their Democrat noses. You Liberals want to see America fall, you want us to be over taken. Well if we were you and I wouldn't be able to talk about it here or on the street. Think dummies. America could destroy Iraq if we wanted. We could destroy the Taliban. We could destroy Iran easily. But economics in the world would be very hard on us. We don't want to kill good people that want to better their lives. We want to keep the terroists over there and fight them there. Wake up!! You that talk about us being defeated are uninformed fools. Even those in the Military that think this way are uninformed cooks. Thank god we went to Iraq and thank god for Our Military. God Bless America. People like HILLARY and OBAMA need to be brought up on Treason. And so should you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To make a statement about the WW2 comments. Germany could've won the war easily if they had taken the Crimea and the Middle east. If Hilter, which thank god he didn't, had listened to Rommel he would've beat Russia without a major conflict. Their are several books that spell it out. America could've helped prolong the war but they could not have stopped them by their selves. Britton would not have carried on without the Suez Canal. They would not have stood a chance. Russia almost signed a treaty with Hilter anyway, even after they were attacked and pushed back. Its called self preservation.

Can't see the forest for the trees. Big picture. Forget Iran, forget Iraq, forget the middle east. Do some research on the energy situation in China. When you've grasped how much China needs energy then, and only then, add the oil deals it's made with Iran into the mix.
China will not, cannot, allow the U.S. to control the Iranian oil fields or the flow of oil from those fields. War with Iran will mean war with China. Iran will attack Israel. Israel will attack everyone. Syria cannot avoid being dragged in and the Russian nuclear weapons, mobile, truck mounted and therefore impossible to locate even on a day by day basis and currently stationed in Syria will become involved.
Within one week of an attack on Iran all U.S. naval forces in the gulf as well as the nation of Israel will cease to exist. Hell of a start.
To believe the U.S. can just stomp over the combined might of Iran, China, Russia, Syria etc is daydreaming on a scale hard to imagine. The idea that we can take on the whole world without the U.S. being destroyed in the process, no Chinese or Russian missles making it to our shores is pure fantasy.
Iraq, a third rate world power has held us up for how long? But we'll destroy China, Russia, Syria and Iran in a week or so without incurring any major damage? Damn that must be good stuff you're smoking.

reply to post by warlock3638


No, there were not WMD in Iraq. None were ever found. Your good friend Rumsfeld even said so. This is the official position now of every major media outlet, including Fox News, as well as the government and the Bush administration. If you want to dispute that and say weapons were found, provide a link to a reliable news source saying so. Otherwise, please don't just sit there and lie to people.

Furthermore, the only Al-Qaida groups in Iraq before the war were the ones in the Turkish controlled region of Iraq, not the parts that Saddam controlled. Saddam could not control that area of Iraq because WE did not let him. Saddam and Al-Qaida were actually enemies of each other. Once we crushed his government and disbanded his army and tried to recruit an entirely new Iraqi army ourselves... THAT was when the terrorists moved in and gained power.

If America could roll over the Taliban, Iraq, Iran, and apparently all of Earth whenever it wanted, then how about you join the army and go do some rolling?

At any rate, if anyone with your mentality ever ends up running America, I hope you enjoy serving the dictatorship by prosecuting people for treason just for having different political views than you. And yes, that IS what you just advocated, and yes, that DOES mean you support a dictatorship in America.

The last thing I'd like to add is that I really hate seeing people with your mentality end every sadist war mongering rant with "God Bless the USA" and all that. If there's a God in Heaven, He will never bless anyone for starting a war and killing thousands of people. EVER.

Originally posted by warlock3638
Even the morons that have posted threads and replys saying its cost us a trillion dollars and etc.

There are many wise people in this forum and I would caution you to tame your tongue when you call people " Morons "

Originally posted by warlock3638
What would've it cost if we had Al Gore as President. Several thousand citizens here in America, and several Billion if not trillion dollars damage these nuts cases could've caused.

Hes not and this war were in is NOT a speculation, it is in every way real.
There are more people dead now and dying daily then before the US took action

Originally posted by warlock3638
There was WMD in Iraq.

Can you provide links and physical proof as recognized by the UN and the world?

Originally posted by warlock3638
Just like all the other nuts here they can't see past their Democrat noses.
You Liberals want to see America fall, you want us to be over taken. Well if we were you and I wouldn't be able to talk about it here or on the street. Think dummies.

Yes..the Liberals want to see America fall. LOL

Originally posted by warlock3638
America could destroy Iraq if we wanted. We could destroy the Taliban. We could destroy Iran easily. But economics in the world would be very hard on us.

Yeah..lets destroy everything while were at it. As far as the rest of the world, America would no longer be about Life, Liberty and the persuit of happyness, we would be perceived the world wide as a bunch of trigger happy war mongers. Were 5% of the worlds population. Get a grip.

Originally posted by warlock3638
We don't want to kill good people that want to better their lives.

Just who do we want to kill? Hell, why even take prisoners, lets just kill them all. Is that your solution? Think the are going to wave their hands in the air and go.." You won " we changed our mind. America is right?

Originally posted by warlock3638
We want to keep the terroists over there and fight them there.

If you read the press, you will see that they percieve us as terrorists. The rod by which you measure, becomes the rod by which you are measured by.

Originally posted by warlock3638
Wake up!! You that talk about us being defeated are uninformed fools. Even those in the Military that think this way are uninformed cooks.

See how far your army will go without those Cooks. Are the Cooks any lesser?

Originally posted by warlock3638
Thank god we went to Iraq and thank god for Our Military. God Bless America.

I thank God for all life, and that there are some that seek peace and not war. That this planet is for all of us, and not merely a sanctioned way of thinking as approved by the US Government or Tehran for that matter.

Originally posted by warlock3638
People like HILLARY and OBAMA need to be brought up on Treason. And so should you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well now, that just wouldnt be American now would it. After all, Freedom of speech is a foundation of democracy.

We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal. All men is all men sir. Christ said love one another.
Killing all these people in the name of a political end is neither American or Christ like in any manner.

Peace


[edit on 30-9-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by jabawaki
Syria cannot avoid being dragged in and the Russian nuclear weapons, mobile, truck mounted and therefore impossible to locate even on a day by day basis and currently stationed in Syria will become involved.

I am not saying I disagree with the line you are taking Jabawaki but this statement looks very similar to some of the stuff put around about Iraq before the war. The Russians certainly have balistic missles with this capability but are you saying the Syrians have nuclear weapons? This of course would be grounds to invade them and give them liberty from their err democratically elected government.

Unfortunately, I fear that the only countries with nuclear weapons in the ME are Israel and the United States. There is no counterweight to the MAD see-saw.

reply to post by nutarac


Off topic I apologise but this one has gone all over the place. A question was raised by nutarac about democracy in the US.

I wonder about the true democratic nature of the American political system. When you consider the huge costs involved in running for office, the almost permanent 'two party' system. Is this really democracy or just another aristocracy?

I am not that familiar with the individuals involved but when was the last time that a US President was not a millionaire in their own right? Or funded by massive contributions from corporations. I am not saying that they all have an 'evil agenda' or anything but can they really be considered to have that 'man-of-the people', grass roots touch. The campaign contributions that all politicians get are a bit shady as well (particularly when they are given to both sides. What does that mean?)

I believe that the ability to run for office should not be governed by how much cash you have, it should be about your policies and apeal to the people of your constituancy. I also beieve that publically listed / owned companies should not give contributions to political parties as this is obviously not because of 'the owners' personal political view it is a direct means to gain influence over government.



[edit on 30-9-2007 by EJHoover]

[edit on 30-9-2007 by EJHoover]

Originally posted by EJHoover
I believe that the ability to run for office should not be governed by how much cash you have, it should be about your policies and apeal to the people of your constituancy. I also beieve that publically listed / owned companies should not give contributions to political parties as this is obviously not because of 'the owners' personal political view it is a direct means to gain influence over government.

Well stated, I too came to that conclusion independently only to find out that Canada practices this. Could you imagine the massive change in US policy and lawmaking without special interest fingers involved?

Peace



[edit on 1-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]

The U.S. definitely has the military might to take out Iran, and any other country we so desire, but the American people prefer to think of themselves as the good guys, and will never support any war that they do not feel is justified. GW and the neocons fooled enough of the people long enough for the Iraq invasion, but unless the neocons pull off a spectacular miracle, they are going to find themselves out of power for a long time.

So, while we have the military power, we do not have the political will for an invasion of Iraq. Unless the Iraq government does something foolish enough to piss off the U.S. public enough for them to want to invade Iraq, it is not going to happen.

Now all this garbage about Russians suddenly having all these superior weapons, now that is funny. Does Russia even have the capability to manufacture microprocessors on their own? I have a great bridge l'm looking to sale, when you guys get done buying this super Russian weapons technology, look me up, I'll give you a great deal.

China might have a great number of people, but they have no Navy. And their population advantage didn't do em any good against Japan. China isn't willing to risk attempting to cross the narrow swath of water that separates Taiwan, and they are smart not to make that attempt. China certainly isn't going to go to Iran's aid.

Iraq is running out of oil, and Saudi Arabia might be heading in the same direction soon. Once that happens, they will be much more interested in making friends.

Oh yeah, the U.S. is not an empire, but, heaven forbid, should we morph into an empire, by historical standards, it will be several centuries before we fall.

reply to post by fweshcawfee

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

-Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

disaster comes in many forms, not just as military defeat

Now all this garbage about Russians suddenly having all these superior weapons, now that is funny. Does Russia even have the capability to manufacture microprocessors on their own? I have a great bridge l'm looking to sale, when you guys get done buying this super Russian weapons technology, look me up, I'll give you a great deal.

China might have a great number of people, but they have no Navy. And their population advantage didn't do em any good against Japan. China isn't willing to risk attempting to cross the narrow swath of water that separates Taiwan, and they are smart not to make that attempt. China certainly isn't going to go to Iran's aid.

Russian Micro Processors
en.wikipedia.org...(computer)
findarticles.com...
www.eetimes.com...

China could become the world’s leading naval power by 2020
www.newswithviews.com...

I suggest you read those links poet1b. Most of Intel's new processors were developed by Russian engineers and the same also applies to some of those booster engines that power your rockets. I could go on, but I suggest you do some research before making such claims.

Russian engines power American rockets
donpmitchell.blogspot.com...
www.space.com...

Russia's booming economy.
www.economist.com...

The Russian involvement is an interesting one, given that they did push the States bomb for bomb in the old Cold war stakes can you really afford to go to war with them, or an ally of theirs with lots of people and their weapons? They may not have the latest Intel processors but I would imagine that they are pretty deadly none the less.

They worked on a completely different military doctrine to the USA and the loss of life, even civilian, was considered acceptable unlike the US where in the Clinton days it was considered unacceptable to lose a single solider (Bosnia and various imperial outings in Africa and South America).
Do you think that the American public have the cojones for a real war? Both the Russians and /or the Iranians would hunker down and get on with the 'total war' but the moment Fox stopped coming out of their 72" TV or their TV dinners defrosted in their freezer, the US public would be calling for change.

The American public now, or any time in their recent history have no idea what real war is like. It always just consists of booming economy (due to the war effort) and sad news happening when the telegrams arrive for individuals down the street. If you had ever been bombed, really bombed by your enemy you would understand. If you had ever been invaded and degraded by your enemy, you would understand. If you had ever reached the point where every family in the country had lost someone close, then you would know. Instead, the people of the USA who promote the war agenda have no idea what it is really like to be on the receiving end of it. If they did, they might not be so keen to get into it.

Why have you never been invaded or bombed? The expanse of the Atlantic and Pacific plus the huge areas of space within your country, it is not because of a lack of motive or desire.

Thank God the US public will never have to feel the deprivation of a real war and so their armed forces can carry on travelling the world and invading people. Sorry, spreading liberty...

[edit on 1-10-2007 by EJHoover]

reply to post by kindred


Did you read the article about China building the world's largest navy? It doesn't even MENTION China's navy. It has a title, and a bunch of paragraphs that have nothing to do with that title.

The reason our Navy (and Air Force) are at low points right now is because we are currently involved in a ground war. Financial backing, therefor, is currently leaning towards supporting ground-based warfighters. We've downgraded the Navy and Air Force because they aren't in demand. Re-upping our Navy and Air Force is simply a matter of needing them in full force again, and adjusting the budget to compensate.

And as far as using Russia's microchips and rockets? Throughout America's history, it has used foreign technology to achieve and maintain its power. Americans have become experts at taking other country's strengths and making them its own. In essence, America's trend is to import superiority rather than attempt to brew it at home, where it would have to pay pesky minimum wages and cater to the whims of the labor force working on various new things.

If we can't use Russia's microchips anymore, we'll go back to Japan's. If we can't use their rockets, we'll start co-developing them with Europe. In the end, the root of American strength is its buying power. Its weakness is its dependance on other countries, which becomes tough to maintain when we act like imperialist warmongers.

The real technological threat America faces from Russia and China is that when they see a need for a new military technology, they can simply force their citizens to make it for them. America's technological response depends on when some other country out there offers us a solution that we can buy, import, or steal.

However, the United States has a vast workforce which is still highly educated (Despite what world rankings and alarmist pollsters might be announcing about our education system this week, quite a bit more than 80% of Americans I've met in my life could find our country on a map.) If we need to boost our technology further, and nobody is willing to do it for us on the cheap side, we DO have the capability to get the job done here at home. It seems that until then we will continue to abide by the policy of "work smarter, not harder."

My point is, just because we got a few things from Russia doesn't mean Russia must suddenly be our superior. We got the textile industry from Great Britain, whom we fought and gained indepenance from. The A-Bomb was largely aided by German scientists during a war which Germany lost. And (matter of opinion coming up!) the best beer in America comes from Mexico, but I'd rather drink the U.S.'s water any day.

Two simple questions that will perhaps help some of you to recognize your true motives. Try either one.
What Muslim nation should be allowed to announce an attempt to build an atomic weapon without being treatened with invasion or pre-emptive strikes?
What Europen Christian nation should be invaded or threatened with a pre-emptive strike if they should announce an attempt to build an atomic weapon.
Would we bomb Belgium or Norway? Would we bomb Egypt or the Sudan? Racist little bastages aren't we?