Death doesn't make sense according to physics

Originally posted by polomontana
So what Tom is a physicist, he hasn't said anything that disputes what I'm saying outside of his opinion.

Nothing he has said has disputed anything that I have said outside of mentioning mysics and this Madame blatvky lady. Nothing.

Sure. I've disputed your reasoning, which is terminally flawed.

Energy is not alive. Say it with me. It is not alive. Energy can't "die" because it isn't "alive". You are using inappropriate terms. Similarly, energy can't become pregnant, or any number of other things.

You are stating, if implicitly, that consciousness is some wave function. But you don't even know what consciousness IS. So you can't say that. That is the next error you have made.

Next, you are then trying to say soul/spirit/consciousness = energy, I've pointed it out in several of your postings, at which point you try to make some feeble statement about energy and end up calling it a proof.

It isn't energy. Energy isn't conscious. Your soul is not a waveform. Your statements are not logical, and are meaningless.

A fast summary to try to help make it more clear- Energy can't die because it isn't alive. Your first statement is meaningless.

Without a definition of soul/spirit/consciousness which identifies which sort of energy you're trying to claim it is, your implied statement "my soul = energy which according to physics will go on in some form forever" is also meaningless. This is where your error occurs, because you are flipping back and forth between energy as a physics term and "energy" in a metaphysical sense, as indicated by your constant use of it as "my energy goes on" - in the physics sense, yes, your chemical energy is still there in the fats and proteins of your cold corpse. But your "energy" in a metaphysical context is a meaningless mouth noise in physics. To try to talk about it in a 2nd law sense in one sentence and then use it in the next as a term connoting consciousness is inaccurate and misleading - to you.

At that point, stating the 2nd law has no point. Why not state Maxwell's definition of curl? At least it looks more "science-y".

reply to post by Sekhemet


Thus my statement early on that perhaps philosophy and religion were better arenas in which to pursue the statement.

The OP is trying to use physics to "prove" a religious point - but with no information on "soul", there isn't any proof to be made.

this may be off topic but about this whole population control thing. i do believe that the governments of the world maybe controling the pop. or at least in the process of it but why are they pushing the whole health thing and living longer. they are going to extremes like banning fastfood resturants in fatter neighborhoods. whats next people

Originally posted by polomontana
I don't see how death makes any sense within the laws of physics. We are energy in state of decoherence. So how does your energy die? In order to show that we die you would have to prove 2 things within the laws of physics.

A) That energy can die.

B) That your something other than energy.

Energy can't die. It changes form, and so do we. I'm sure someone else has said this, but I don't have the time to read 62 replies.

Energy simply changes form. EVERYTHING is made up of energy, and it's form has to change. There can be no constant form. A constant form would go against nature. We change as we age, grow, move, etc. But we're still energy at the most basic level. We're still the same. Everything is constantly changing, however all is eternally the same.

this may be off topic but about this whole population control thing. i do believe that the governments of the world maybe controling the pop. or at least in the process of it but why are they pushing the whole health thing and living longer. they are going to extremes like banning fastfood resturants in fatter neighborhoods. whats next people

...THATS AN EXTREME?!

Wow, i must be a harsh person then.

They can walk to get their Fast food fix.

Originally posted by wigit
Okay, I expect a body to die and rot, but not ME that's inside THIS body. I don't think this is all that I am.

[edit on 15-9-2007 by wigit]

what is "me"?
This seems like a nice "thought" by a computer program (human mind) that came to realize what it would deem as mortality. (albeit not true mortality as it takes form of different 'energy' to feed bugs)

so in short, yes I believe immortality in the 'form' you have (so to speak) is possible (but for an 'elite' few so far, at least on this planet.)

Peace

dAlen

The universe is a quantum computer and it's constantly processing information. It's constantly processing 'it's' from 'bits'.

Energy and information are a key component to this information process.

Say you go to get a glass of water, several bits occur. You can drink the whole glass of water (bit), you can drink half the glass of water and pour the rest back into the sink (bit) or the glass can slip out of your hand and break (bit). All these things are bits of information that require energy in order to be processed. Say you drink the whole glass of water, you then go from bit to it and the universe has processed this information.

You are energy in a state of decoherence as I have shown here. Your energy doesn't die when you experience death neither does all the information you have processed along the way.

You can check out Programming the Universe by Seth Lloyd also The Omega Point Theory by Frank Tipler.

Here's an interview you can check out with Seth Lloyd.
www.technologyreview.com...



[edit on 16-9-2007 by polomontana]

Again I do not know exactly where to start, or probably exactly how to explain it. There have been books out that have helped, and the fact that Exact Uncertainty was mathematically proved back about 2003-4 by a scientist. What is after Exact Uncertainty? To me that is where it enters into religion or nonsense or a process that is as of yet not understood, or even Metaphysics at that point.

But the simple version according to me. Exactly can you even begin to imagine the energy of C^2 along with multiplying it with Mass like Einstein's famous equation?

I have a computer book you can read. Afterall, there is kinetic energy, kinematic energy, and all forms of energy that is created just by the simple undefined term of Energy as equated to by C^2.

One such book was the Holographic Universe written arounb 1991 or so, and now it is Parallel Universe written by Dr. Michio Kaku.

As the late Dr. Carl Sagan may say "We are made from a Third Generation Star". The original stars burnt up their energy and it transformed over many, many, many, many, perhaps even billion of years according to what we call a year which is just the time that the Earth takes to revolve around the Sun our star - Sol.

Time enters into the equation and afterall, I just think that "Time" is the only Dimension because all the Energy created Dimensions now claimed by other scientists that we try to imagine but like a HyperCube in fourth dimension, we can not imagine it good enough. We can imagine how it will look in our three dimensions because they are spatial dimensions while time is considered to be another dimension that is not spatial. But then "Time" makes the spatial dimensions of length, width, breath really be something else with all the energy.

This all ends up being called Metaphysics, and although some thoughts have ocurred about this Metaphysics, it is still a thought that forms a simpler method of combining everything.

The stars burnt out, and the energy was transformed from Hydrogen the simplest atom to Helium the next simplest form of atom. It all is a progression that is Depended on Time, and that is why I think "Time" is the only dimension.

Now with the thinking it all enters into other dimensions at least 10 or possibly 26 dimensions. We can only equate to the spatial dimensions and the one dimenion of time as the thinking goes now.

But Dr. John Cramer at this moment and perhaps even this month is trying to end an experiment to see if Time Goes Backwards also instead of just forward as it only is thought of as of now.

Energy is Tranformed but at the same time is Entrophy which is the gradual running down of the processes that equate that the Energy changes States or Eigenstates of becoming something different.
However, what the Energy will ultimately change into is something perhaps that we can not know -- far into the future because we can not imagine the Big Picture that Energy actually is as of now and may never know.

Perhaps far into the future, heavier type masses of stars exist and Iron burns as Energy instead of Hydrogen changing into Helium only as it is now. Afterall most of everything in this Universe is just still Hydrogen as an atom and that has been going on for an estimated 13 billion years. Now, afterall to complete the Standard Model (and there are still a few wrinkles with that theory) they will be looking for what makes up mass, and they equate that to the Higgs Boson particle.

And then the Dark Energy and Mass now entering into view. Well, we just do not have the answers, so do not expect that I can actually give an answer, I just do not know everything, and if Exact Uncertainty is a reality, then perhaps Humans will never know everything, it enters at that point - into what we term religion.

Scientists just can not give an Answer to the form that all the Energy is right now -- only the Effects seen that is produced from all the energy.

If Energy could not be Transformed then we would have no hope or faith of changing to a form that we could use for some other purpose. There would be no way to use Plasma perhaps someday to reach to those other Stars up in the Sky that we all assume are Stars similiar to our Own Star - Sol.

But like a dog chasing its own tail and going around in spirals, that all Humans can do as of Now.

faculty.washington.edu...

But at this time, I must deposit the food that gave me energy today from yesterday while I sit on my Throne in the Bathroom, and make a Deposit into my Throne.

Yes, it does seem that I can actually say nothing of real value also, but only that Metaphysics is where this discussion seemed to be heading but was that because of the Past and forms of Energy not imagined or was that because of the Future and forms of Energy not imagined and although some people wanted Mass Hallucinations I preferred to Dump it all as Waste in the Throne Room?

Some more books to read whenever someone as a scientists writes another book to read.



Gotta go!

Originally posted by polomontanaYour energy doesn't die when you experience death neither does all the information you have processed along the way.

Your energy doesn't live when you experience life.

Energy isn't alive or dead. Energy is not consciousness. It is not soul. It is not spirit. It is simply the capacity to do work.

Information doesn't live when you experience life. It simply is. It is neither alive nor dead.

Your memories vanish when you die. Heck, I can make 'em go away while you're still alive, as far as that goes. Not very cleanly, but you can definitely do it.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
Your memories vanish when you die. Heck, I can make 'em go away while you're still alive, as far as that goes. Not very cleanly, but you can definitely do it.

You mean like this from the simpsons?

Mr. Burns: Oh, fiddle-faddle. Everyone knows our mutants have flippers. Ooh, oops. I've said too much. [clears throat]
[under his breath] Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
Smithers: You mean the revolver, sir?
Mr. Burns: Precisely. Be sure to wipe your own memory clear when you're finished.

Right, on topic, if consciousness is energy, it isn't the same energy as normal physics describes. If anything it's totally different, just an explanation that theorises on other dimensions and complicated things with the brain.

[edit on 16-9-2007 by apex]

TOM.


Yeah i get you, makes sense mate.

[edit on 16-9-2007 by Sekhemet]

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam

Originally posted by polomontanaYour energy doesn't die when you experience death neither does all the information you have processed along the way.

Your energy doesn't live when you experience life.

Energy isn't alive or dead. Energy is not consciousness. It is not soul. It is not spirit. It is simply the capacity to do work.

Information doesn't live when you experience life. It simply is. It is neither alive nor dead.

Your memories vanish when you die. Heck, I can make 'em go away while you're still alive, as far as that goes. Not very cleanly, but you can definitely do it.

Tom, I can tell your not well versed in theoretical physics or digital physics. You are making these leaps that come out of a 3rd year textbook on physics.

Your memories are an information process that doesn't disappear when you die. You remember a wedding or the birth of a new child. These are all bits of information that become its as this information is processed. These things occur because the exchange of information and energy.

Many people have put their faith in death and when death is questioned they respond just like a Muslim would when Islam is questioned.

If you bump your toe, it's information being processed. If you remember playing little league, you are remembering energy and information. In order for you to remember anything it takes energy and information.

Is consciousness something other than an energy state? Please share some physics that back your assertions. Classical physics is silent on alot of these things but you seem to be speaking as though the basic physics you are espousing is certain.



[edit on 16-9-2007 by polomontana]

Your memories vanish when you die? LOL Where do they go? What law of physics supports this assertion?

[edit on 16-9-2007 by polomontana]

Originally posted by polomontana
Your memories vanish when you die? LOL Where do they go? What law of physics supports this assertion?

I repeat my offer for you to send me your hard drive. I will wood-chipper it, burn the chips, and bag the smoke and ash. Not one atom will be lost, nor will any energy. I'll send the bag back to you at my own expense.

Don't want to? Why not? Where would your info go? I'd be sending it right back to you.

Originally posted by polomontana
I don't see how death makes any sense within the laws of physics. We are energy in state of decoherence. So how does your energy die? In order to show that we die you would have to prove 2 things within the laws of physics.

A) That energy can die.

B) That your something other than energy.

If you can't counter these 2 things within the laws of physics, then how can you say we die?

You can say death is an experience just like getting married or having a child but you can't say that our energy doesn't survive the experience of death. That doesn't make sense in light of the laws of physics.

Who's claiming energy dies?

I presume you mean energy dieing in the sense that it ceases to exist?

As you're suggesting and is currently known in science this isn't the case so what are you getting at?

If I was to guess your getting at how you as a consciousness also don't cease to exist because the things that make you up still exist (although of course not together and especially so over time), so from that it would seem you won't be conscious as your not alive (as in a living organism with consciousness), though again the matter and energy may still exist but they're not in a useful form to make you, you!

This isn't to say i don't believe in the possibility of life after death but if we're trying to be at least reasonably scientific here about your post as you appear to want then that seems to me at least to be logically sound.


Anyway heres a few things to think about on this sort of subject.

Over the short term we are using energy constantly and that energy is taken in and used up, it changes form and eventually leaves the body in various ways, also over the long term most or all of the matter that makes us up is changed through the food and drink we take in, so we can say our matter is slowly changing and being renewed, yet even still our consciousness appears to be exactly the same, how is this so if both matter and energy are renewed over time?

When you are unconscious while either in the dreamless part of sleep or knocked out or under some drug, where is your consciousness and why aren't you still aware at those times, even if you don't have control of your body or receive any sensory information? Why would death be any different and what about before birth?

You exist now from what seems to be quite ridiculous odds, so why couldn't you come together in some way again in this possibly infinite time and space, even if you are likely to be unconscious in between?


Hope some of that makes sense, its late here at the time of writing this and im tired!

[edit on 16/9/07 by just theory]

Originally posted by Sophismata

Originally posted by polomontana
Your memories vanish when you die? LOL Where do they go? What law of physics supports this assertion?

I repeat my offer for you to send me your hard drive. I will wood-chipper it, burn the chips, and bag the smoke and ash. Not one atom will be lost, nor will any energy. I'll send the bag back to you at my own expense.

Don't want to? Why not? Where would your info go? I'd be sending it right back to you.

What does this mean? If I send you my hard drive and I have someones number on there, does this information disappear when you wood-chip the hardrive? I don't think so.

Your memories occur in time. Time occurs absent observation of it. Our timeline doesn't disappear as time passes. Our memories exist in time because our memories are energy and information that occured in time.

reply to post by just theory



Consciousness observes energy and information. When you die this energy and information doesn't cease to exist.



Mod Note: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

It doesn't get much easier, than hitting the 'Reply to' buttion'.

[edit on 16-9-2007 by Jbird]

Originally posted by apex

You mean like this from the simpsons?

Actually, not far from it. You can obliterate memories by stopping them from being transcribed to long term memory - just fill your victim's rump full of Versed, for example.

There are some chemical agents that have just hit the scene that may have the ability to erase long-term memory sort of willy-nilly. I don't imagine there have been any human trials unless it's been with the odd homeless person with extraordinarily bad luck in the DC area.

An injury to the hippocampal area will do it too. Or chemical damage to the hippocampal area (see also Korsakoff's Syndrome). Then there's the ever popular Alzheimer's.

Right, on topic, if consciousness is energy, it isn't the same energy as normal physics describes. If anything it's totally different, just an explanation that theorises on other dimensions and complicated things with the brain.

Now, that I could go along with. I'm not saying the basis for "soul" might not be found, but that we don't have a freaking clue what "consciousness" is. Some neurophysicists think it's all a con job in your head, and deny it happens at all.

Originally posted by polomontana

Tom, I can tell your not well versed in theoretical physics or digital physics. You are making these leaps that come out of a 3rd year textbook on physics.

Great, then maybe I can pose you a few problems from, say, a first semester physics text and we'll see how you do on them. Cause really, I don't think you know the first thing about physics, as evidenced by your bringing up deBroglie waves.

Your memories are an information process that doesn't disappear when you die. You remember a wedding or the birth of a new child. These are all bits of information that become its as this information is processed. These things occur because the exchange of information and energy.

Sure they do. As far as anyone knows, it's a function of synaptic connections, and synaptic weights that are set when the memory is consolidated from short to long term memory. There's some theory that it's also encoded onto protein structures, but I'm not sure about the evidence for that.

You remember these things you state because your brain is really good at storing long term memory in the weights of synapses of neurons that are set aside for long term memory. It's a marvelous system but it's not some Kantorian quantum stuff.

I can stop the long term encoding with any number of amnesics, and can erase the long term encoding by ablating your hippocampus. It's not stored in some mystic universe encoding. I think you've been reading too much pseudo-science bibble babble.

Many people have put their faith in death and when death is questioned they respond just like a Muslim would when Islam is questioned.

And many people read physics they don't understand from hucksters who know they don't. And these people can't distinguish between the real and the imaginary, because of lack of education or a fear of death that makes them credulous about any pseudo-science to the contrary.

If you bump your toe, it's information being processed. If you remember playing little league, you are remembering energy and information. In order for you to remember anything it takes energy and information.

Actually, you got this exactly right, but I'm betting not for any reason you would realize. The computer you're typing your replies on does the same thing. It uses energy to retrieve information from storage. But that energy doesn't store that information as some eternal truth embedded into the fabric of the universe. It's dissipated into meaningless random heat by the circuitry. It's gone after the power goes off.

It's at this point you're going off into metaphysics, but you don't want to hear it. The process is much the same for you. You use energy to retrieve the information, but we're talking in terms of physics, not metaphysics. This "energy" is the capacity to do work sort of energy, not "soul". It's the product of metabolizing glucose or fatty acids sort of energy, and it results in waste and heat. It ends up dissipated into meaningless background noise. When you say "energy can't be destroyed" that's the literal truth, but the uglier truth you don't want to hear is that the energy is scattered, dissipated into meaningless heat. It doesn't make you one with the universe except as waste and background noise.

Is consciousness something other than an energy state? Please share some physics that back your assertions. Classical physics is silent on alot of these things but you seem to be speaking as though the basic physics you are espousing is certain.

It's a process, not a state: if it were a state, it would be static.

And I couldn't agree with you more - physics IS silent on it, because while there's lots of work going on on information processing, on "soul", "consciousness", "ka" etc there isn't anything detectable. So with no "soul-o-meter" and no exchange particle of thought or whathaveyou, there isn't any meaningful discourse.

That said, by your own admission, physics is silent on a lot of these things, and thus you can't invoke it as an explanation.

But to answer your question less flippantly, you are trying to declare that "soul" or "consciousness" is an energy state. Finding this bogus, I will immediately start requesting you to explain in detail this marvelous "discovery", small things like which sort of energy it is. And all I get is this Chopra stuff wherein you're trying to flip back and forth between a metaphysical usage of the word "energy" such as you just did, and the physics usage.

How many joules to a thought, polo?

Originally posted by polomontana

Consciousness observes energy and information. When you die this energy and information doesn't cease to exist.

This is questionable and you still haven't really explained what your getting at?

You also keep saying things as fact without any evidence, its fine if you want to discuss this subject in a philosophical way but don't state things as fact without evidence, most people are happy to discuss this stuff but it gets tiresome when people write their thoughts as if they're more likely to be true or even as fact.