Why do Christian and other Religious groups lie?

I really want to know the answer to this question.

Do they have some need for others to blindly follow them? Assuming they won’t check the validity of what is said.

Is it just political type propaganda?

This is Just one example It was apart of some e-mail campaign.

Now it is your turn... It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore, it is very hard to understand why there is such a mess about having the Ten Commandments on display or "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!! If you agree, pass this on

The link is related to this thread this thread on ATS

Or are they all just honest mistakes.

Theyre not lying. I believe they are just deluded by their religion. I have nothing against it personally but it is quite annoying (but also somehow quite amusing) when they post BS like this. In that particualr article saying 86% of americans believe in god is a pretty big call with no real data to back it up. Whats with telling the other 14% to sit down and shut up? Tad bit rude isnt it

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Theyre not lying. I believe they are just deluded by their religion. I have nothing against it personally but it is quite annoying (but also somehow quite amusing) when they post BS like this. In that particualr article saying 86% of americans believe in god is a pretty big call with no real data to back it up. Whats with telling the other 14% to sit down and shut up? Tad bit rude isnt it

I believe there is polling data to suggest that 80% of Americans believe in God so it's not a lie. That said, a belief in God and membership in a particular religion are two completely different things. For instance, within that 80% there are Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Jews, Muslims and Non denominational Chritians.

Those who try to impose their own beliefs on others of different faiths or non believers seek to override the Constitution of the US. I am a Catholic but would never be in favor of attempts to pass laws that would force non Catholics, or fellow Catholics for that matter, to obey church doctrine. Faith is just that. If you have to force someone to follow your beliefs, how much faith do you really have?

The vast majority of them don't lie, they've been lied TO by the people they look up to in their religious hierarchy. The general masses are conditioned to believe what they're told by being fed unbelievable stories for their entire religious lives. when it comes to religion their suspension of disbelief function is broken. they do not question. In other words, in most cases, it's simple brainwashing.

However, why the leaders lie is another matter. The priesthood in all faiths in all of history have been given power, wealth, and status because of their position as the "keepers of god(s) word." with science making advances at such a rapid pace, and showing that belief in any kind of deity is unnecessary I think the leadership is panicking. This is what's behind the ID movement: lies out of desperation. If they believed evolution as it really is, there wouldn't be a lot of room for god in their flock -- all but about .15% of life scientists don't believe in creationism for good reason. They can see beyond it through the lens of science.

If the flocks of these leaders were to get a true understanding of evolution and the sciences, the god of the gaps would be squeezed out of existence, or very nearly so. Then where will all that lovely money in the collection plates come from? Who will pay for the Lexuses and the Rolexes that the leaders have come to depend on?

I did a thread on the new Ben Stein movie, Expelled, that begs this same question. The producers of that movie had to lie to scientists to get them to participate in the filming.

They lie because they know that their belief system is fatally flawed and cant' stand up to to scrutiny. They know that the rate of advancement of science is a death knell for primitive belief systems.

I've always found it ironic that one of the ten commandments that Xians are trying to force into our courthouses and public buildings has an admonition against lying, but that is their only real weapon against science. Lies.

Sad, isn't it?

[edit to correct link]


[edit on 15-9-2007 by MajorMalfunction]

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
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I've always found it ironic that one of the ten commandments that Xians are trying to force into our courthouses and public buildings has an admonition against lying, but that is their only real weapon against science. Lies.

Sad, isn't it?

Many religious leaders do seem to feel that they need to attack science in order to sell their brand of religion to their "flock." That is sad because, in my humble opinion, a faith and belief in God can easily coexist with science. What cannot necessarily co-exist are some of the past proclamations by the various religions.

Ive often believed that many of those sitting in the pews on Sunday possess a deeper faith than those at the pulpit.

They are taught that modifying stories (which they don't see as lying) to convert others is okay. This is an old practice; some of the earliest Christian "fathers" held that lying to convert others was okay.

Following St. Augustine and St. Thomas, Catholic divines and ethical writers commonly make a distinction between (1) injurious, or hurtful, (2) officious, and (3) jocose lies.
" St. John Chrysostom held that it is lawful to deceive others for their benefit, and Cassian taught that we may sometimes lie as we take medicine, driven to it by sheer necessity.

So retelling an urban legend to make it a "true" Christian morality tale is not seen as wrong. They also justify this by pointing out where famous people (including Jesus -- in John 7 he tells the apostles he's not going to the feast and then sneaks in) lied in the Bible:
www.geocities.com...

That page has a lot of good examples and good links.

Wikipedia talks about "consiquentialism" en.wikipedia.org...

So everyone would agree that it would be okay to lie to the Nazis to protect a Jewish family... and from little judgements like this, the "it's okay to lie to someone if their immortal soul is saved" theology comes.

reply to post by Indellkoffer


Nice job Thanks for the reply. I do agree that there are good reasons to lie your lying to Nazi is a very good example. Lying to save a persons soul IMHO is not a reason to lie. Lying and faith does not go together. Basically in my view if a person believes a lie to save there soul, there faith is misplaced, and in the future if they discovered they were lied too, putting there faith in question.

My opening post had two basis lies, the first lie was about the United States Of America was founded as a Christian nation, the second was a mere stretching of the truth that 86% of American believed in God leading the reader to believe that 86% of American were Christian.

Nice job

Thanks for the reply. I do agree that there are good reasons to lie your lying to Nazi is a very good example. Lying to save a persons soul IMHO is not a reason to lie. Lying and faith does not go together. Basically in my view if a person believes a lie to save there soul, there faith is misplaced, and in the future if they discovered they were lied too, putting there faith in question.

Lying is Lying... The bible says for God's people to tell the truth and lie not. I believe what soccermom is refering to is 'becoming all things to all people, whereby they may be saved'.God can certainly work, through prayer, without falsehoods.

My opening post had two basis lies, the first lie was about the United States Of America was founded as a Christian nation, the second was a mere stretching of the truth that 86% of American believed in God leading the reader to believe that 86% of American were Christian.

America was most certainly founded with christian foundations by mostly christians. I believe it was 86% believe in GOD.

God and science can not co-exist, but the people surely can. Whether you have 14% none Christian or less, they are still entitled to their freedom of speech. That is why we live in a democratic nation and not a nation that is run by extremists, who will kill you because you want to believe in something else.

reply to post by Clearskies


The United States of America was meant to be SECULAR, and should ALWAYS REMAIN SECULAR!

Why is this so hard for Christians to grasp!!!

If it was otherwise it would be in the Constitution and bill of Rights!!!!!

Originally posted by Equinox99
God and science can not co-exist, but the people surely can. Whether you have 14% none Christian or less, they are still entitled to their freedom of speech. That is why we live in a democratic nation and not a nation that is run by extremists, who will kill you because you want to believe in something else.

Sometimes I wonder just how far away we are from this.

reply to post by LDragonFire

We are not far at all, if you are an Atheist then you have a right to be. You will not be sent to jail. I am Christian, and if I am choosing to worship God, then I have the freedom to do so. If I wanted to worship a spaghetti monster then I have the right to do so. You might be criticized, but the person pointing the finger is wrong.

Dragon

The United States of America was meant to be SECULAR, and should ALWAYS REMAIN SECULAR!

Why is this so hard for Christians to grasp!!!

If it was otherwise it would be in the Constitution and bill of Rights!!!!!

D.C. DID YOU KNOW?
James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.
DID YOU KNOW?
Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.
DID YOU KNOW?
Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law . an oligarchy the rule of few over many.
DID YOU KNOW?
The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said: "Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers." How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional? Lets put it around the world and let the world see and remember what this great country was built on. Chamber , US House of Representatives I was asked to send this on if I agreed or delete if I didn't.
Now it is your turn... It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore, it is very hard to understand why there is such a mess about having the Ten Commandments on display or "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!! If you agree, pass this on

O.K., of these quotes, which is false???
ANY of them???.....except the "sit down and shut up", possibly.

Religion is a ways to control the masses, I know there is a famous quote that says exactly the same thing, only better, but I can't find it.

Basically we are all lied to everyday by those in authority, but religion is used in a way that makes us more compliant. We are taught by religion that to be good is to eventually going to cause us to reap a reward, it clearly states in the bible to obey man's laws, hmmmmmm now why stick that in there?

We are taught that misery is part of living, the meek shall inherit the earth, yeah right and heaven is just around the corner. It is all designed to keep us quiet and scared, who has not heard about the hell and brimstone as a child, and in the same breath the preacher spats out, but he is a loving God.

The contradictions in the bible causes a child of logic to ask questions, but that is bad too after all one should never doubt God, you will go to hell for sure on that one. LOL And never I and I mean never ask the church folks why if God is the ruler of all things, did he make the rule his son had to die before anyone could get into heaven, couldn't he have made better rules?

They lie basically because to allow doubt in any form can open up one to too much logical thinking and once one starts to see the small lies, the larger ones become more visible and eventually one has to see that religion is the biggest con of all.

reply to post by Clearskies


Other quotes by James Madison:

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

-- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, in Saul K Padover, ed., The Complete Madison: His Basic Writings (1953), also; from Jack N Rakove, ed., James Madison: Writings, (1999), p. 789, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history. (See the cases in which negatives were put by J M on two bills passd by Congs and his signature withheld from another. See also attempt in Kentucky for example, where it was proposed to exempt Houses of Worship from taxes."

-- James Madison, "Monopolies. Perpetuities. Corporations. Ecclesiastical Endowments," in Elizabeth Fleet, "Madison's Detatched Memoranda," William & Mary Quarterly, Third series: Vol. III, No. 4 (October, 1946) p. 555. The parenthetical note at the end, which lacks a closed parenthesis in Fleet, was apparently a note Madison made to himself regarding examples of improper encroachment to use when the "Detatched Memoranda" were edited and published, and seems to imply clearly that Madison supported taxing churches. Quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church."

"The general government is proscribed from the interfering, in any manner whatsoever, in matters respecting religion; and it may be thought to do this, in ascertaining who, and who are not, ministers of the gospel."

-- James Madison, 1790, Papers, 13:16

OODLES more here.

Now, if you would kindly cease the argument from authority and tell us, in your own words, why your belief system is more important than any one else's in a country where "all men are created equal"?

reply to post by MajorMalfunction


It is very apparent that Mr. Madison was against the church ruling the masses.. but all the same, MANY of our leaders were of the christian fundamentalist pursuasion.
Because all of thier writings and conversations aren't here for us to scrutinize, let's not create conjecture.

Im glad im from the most non-religious country in the world........

They aren't lying, in their minds, considering they are under the impression it's true. The people at the top of these religions, however, pastors and priests, bishops etc. they understand that religion is a big business. I've seen income reports on many of these people making thousands of dollars a month, buying cars, investment properties, and it makes me sick to think how these people take advantage of others.

Originally posted by Clearskies
It is very apparent that Mr. Madison was against the church ruling the masses.. but all the same, MANY of our leaders were of the christian fundamentalist pursuasion.

List some of them then. With sources/quotes to provide validity.

Because all of thier writings and conversations aren't here for us to scrutinize, let's not create conjecture.

You can't cast judgment on stone throwers when you yourself are among the first to pick one up.

In my line of work I personally get to meet a lot of people of all faiths and atheists have always been the most militant, self-righteous, imposing people I meet. The worst atheists I have met have been 100 times worse than the worse Christian I have met. Atheists shout that religion is controlling the masses while acting like they know everything about everything. The saddest part to me is that in order to keep up the hardline appearance of atheism they cannot even ask themselves the basic human philosophical question, "what if?"