Best Plane for Indian MRCA 126 Deal

Something i`ve read is that the block 70 is essentially the same as the block 60 (which UAE put the money into developing) and have royalty rights of 7 percent on all airframes sold!

so essentially lockmart would at best only earn 43 percent on each sale (50 percent offset and 7 percnt to UAE)

I'm not so sure it will have govt approval and funding.. not after the way the LCA went..

I don't think that is the case. The delay in LCA development has some reasons to look into...........

Sanctions on India............so India had to develop some technology which it intended to buy from other countries.

Lack of accountability of public sector companies. Now the government of India has set up a committee to look into the delays in the production of equipment.

Dear Rome wasn't built in a day. I know the recent past isn't very glorious but I think the corrective steps are being taken.

Here is one of the links
www.bharat-rakshak.com...

This definitely does not overlap with the role the PAK-FA is intended to play.
So now we're looking at 2 different stealth designs? Bomber/'strike'(MCA) AND air superiority(PAK-FA)?

So this situation is comparable to the present situation as MRCA will complement Su-30 MKI.

But I think if India goes with PAK FA development along with Russia........this will be very helpful for Indians as the major hurdle here is stealth technology. And working on PAK FA will give India a first hand experience on this technology and many other technologies which they need to develop if they don't go for joint development of any 5th Gen Fighter and the only proposal before India right now is PAK FA

Thanks Darkpr0, your analysis is impressive.

Although you totally missed out Rafale.

I hope you mention that in next post of yours.

I guess Rafale is a serious contender.

I just came across some news articles about MRCA deal

www.bharat-rakshak.com...

www.defenseindustrydaily.com...

They are very interesting.

Please post your opinions

Originally posted by vedas
I guess Rafale is a serious contender.

That trend got a sharp boost in March 2006, when Press Trust of India (PTI) reported a surprise pullout by the CEO of Dassault on the eve of the RFP.

I know this means that the Mirage 2000 v5 is out, but when it says Dassault pulled out I assumed that it meant Rafale as well. But I'll probably take a look at it now too. I might be able to get it up later in the day, but if I can't access the site at school I'll just have to wait til tomorrow.

I'll wait for your reply Darkpr0

Good Job

Lockheed Martin F-16 (Block 70):

*These stats are taken from the Block 60 since the 70's stats are hard to find and supposed to be pretty close*

Specifications

Engine: One General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan, rated at 19,000 lb.s.t. dry and 32,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

Performance: Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.02 (1333 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet.

Dimensions: wingspan 31 feet 0 inches, length 49 feet 4 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.

Weights: around 22,000 pounds empty, 29,000 pounds normal loaded (air-to-air mission), 46,000 pounds maximum takeoff.

Good Points:
-Hey, it has AESA as well. It's even what appears to be a later model than that on the Super Fries.
-It's a proven airframe
-It is indeed in the realm of the desirable for the Indians. It's a light multirole.

Bad Points:
-It's an old airframe and is not even close to Low-Observability. And you guys thought I was insane saying that Su-35 BM was made to be a little closer to the stealthy side.
-It's an airframe that is going to be very quickly made obsolete by the F-35. Upgrades on an older fighter won't take it past a totally new airframe destined for the same roles. If they want something like the F-16, it'd be wiser to just beg for the F-35.

Final Word:
I love the F-16. It's a cool, sexy plane. But the problem here is that it's getting to the point where you have to let it go. The F-16 is going to get replaced by what is pretty widely accepted as a superior aircraft, the F-35 (just because I hate it doesn't mean I get to negate fact). Also, the infrastructure for the F-16's is simply not there for India, regardless of how cool we think it'd be to see F-16's and Su-30 MKI's in formation together. It's just not the choice for India.


Saab JAS39 Gripen

General characteristics

* Crew: 1–2
* Length: 14.1 m (46 ft 3 in)
* Wingspan: 8.4 m (27 ft 7 in)
* Wing area: 25.54 m (274.9 ft)
* Empty weight: 6,620 kg (14,600 lb)
* Loaded weight: 8,720 kg (19,200 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 14,000 kg (31,000 lb)
* Powerplant: 1× Volvo Aero RM12 (GE F404) afterburning turbofan, 54 kN dry, 80 kN with afterburner (12,000 lbf / 18,100 lbf)

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 2
* Range: Combat radius 800km, (500 miles), (430nm). ()
* Service ceiling: 15,000 m (50,000 ft)
* Thrust/weight: 0.94

Armament

* 1 × 27 mm Mauser BK-27 cannon
* 6 × Rb 74 or Rb 98
* 4 × Rb 99, Rb 71, MICA or Meteor
* Rb 75, KEPD 350, or various other laser-guided bombs, rocket pods.
* Rb 15F anti-ship missile
* Bk 90 cluster bomb

Good Points:
-One of the coolest features: It is made for really fast turnaround. It is supposed to land, rearm, and get back up with a 5 man crew in ten minutes. It can even land on public highways.
-It can do some very short landings and takeoffs. It's made to work in less than 800m.

Bad Points:
-It's tiny. Really tiny. So tiny, in fact, that it'll be taking the spot of the HAL Tejas aircraft currently in development by the Indian Air Force. Undesirable.
-It's expensive. For such a small aircraft it is unbelievably expensive. 45-40 million per unit. Ouch.
-It doesn't have AESA, TVC, or really many of those whizz-bang features we all love
-It's not capable of handling a lot of current armament. It's best armament would probably be the Meteor, which has yet to come out.

Final Word:
The JAS39 is an awesome mini-plane. If you want something unbelievably light for duty, this would be it. Unfortunately this conflicts with the HAL Tejas that the Indians have going, so its purchase is not very likely or useful. Disappointing since Saab makes some of the coolest planes.


Dassault Rafale

General characteristics

* Crew: 1–2
* Length: 15.27 m (50.1 ft)
* Wingspan: 10.80 m (35.4 ft)
* Height: 5.34 m (17.4 ft)
* Wing area: 45.7 m² (492 ft²)
* Empty weight: 9,060 kg (20,000 lb)
* Useful load: 9,500 kg (21,000 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 24,500 kg (54,000 lb)
* Powerplant: 2× SNECMA M88-2 turbofans

Performance

* Maximum speed: >Mach 1.8 (2,130 km/h, 1,320 mph)
* Range: 1,800 km (970 nm, 1,100 mi)
* Service ceiling: 18,000 m (60,000 ft)
* Rate of climb: >305 m/s [6] (60,000 ft/min)
* Wing loading: 326 kg/m² (83 1/3 lb/ft²)
* Thrust/weight: 1.13

Armament

* Guns: 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) GIAT 30/719B cannon with 125 rounds
* Missiles:
o Air-to-air:
+ MICA IR/EM or
+ AIM-9 Sidewinder or
+ AIM-132 ASRAAM or
+ AIM-120 AMRAAM or
+ MBDA Meteor or
+ Magic II
o Air-to-ground:
+ MBDA Apache or
+ SCALP EG or
+ AASM or
+ AM 39 Exocet or
+ ASMP nuclear missile

Good Points
-It's definitely in the weight spectrum that the Indian Air Force is looking for.
-It has that nifty SPECTRA electronic survival completely integrated with the airframe. It's not like having complete all-aspect stealth, but it does have some accompanying passive sensors for signature control.

Bad Points
-It's pretty expensive, at what looks to be like about 60 million US each.
-No AESA, and not much integration with the accompanying Indian inventory, the MKI's.

Final Word
I really don't consider the Rafale a particular contender here. It was made with France's defense in mind since they refused the Eurofighter deal. Although not a bad fighter and having some genuinely cool stuff, I don't think it's quite leading the pack here.


Verdict:

I think that we've got some serious competition up here. There's some serious hairiness about but I think it's pretty clear for me. If I were the Indian Air Force I'd be taking the MiG-35 or the EF-2000. Even then, I'd have to say that the MiG-35 would take the cake as it was made directly to compliment the heavier Sukhoi fighters (several of which India operates and manufactures). This gives it the ability to use existing infrastructure as well as perform its mission without infringing on the roles of others, fitting well between the Tejas and Flankers.

I'd give it to the MiG-35. And it looks like I'm not alone.

External Link

But a question I would like to ask: How would this competition be changed if other aircraft were entered? What about the F-35? How about the J-10? Consider.

But a question I would like to ask: How would this competition be changed if other aircraft were entered? What about the F-35? How about the J-10? Consider.

Hi Darkpr0,

I don't think F 35 would be a factor as American UK rift in the technology transfer of F 35 has raised many eyebrows. And US is not gonna share technology of F 35 with India anytime soon.

Moreover India is almost certainly involved in PAK FA. So F 35 bait is not a very big factor IMO. The only way Indian can get hands on 5th Gen technology is by joint development of 5th Gen fighter and in this regard the most reliable for Indians are Russians.

J-10??!!


That'll be the day! when India ask and/or China offers..

May be few centuries later.............

The news here is that a new version of J-10 has flew yesterday, which was refitted with DIS and prepare to carrier.

I was reading about J-10...........It first flew in 1998 and some sources say it first flew in 1996 but it crashed and it took 2 yrs to rectify the faults leading to the crash.

Here is the link
en.wikipedia.org...

Found a very interesting article

www.saag.org...

www.defense-update.com...

www.freerepublic.com...

www.aviationtrivia.homestead.com...

www.defenseindustrydaily.com...

Foreign Bidders Seek Deadline Extension for India’s MMRCA

The deadline for submitting bids for India’s $10 billion Medium Multi-Range Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) is likely to be extended by another six months.
Foreign vendors have made repeated requests for the Ministry of Defence to extend the acceptance of bids beyond the current March 8, 2008, deadline, ministry sources said.
The foreign vendors say they need extra time to submit their technical bids, especially in view of the conditions India has attached to the contract, including requirements for 50 percent in offsets and the transfer of several critical technologies.
A senior executive for one foreign vendor invited to bid on the program said privately that his company is finding the Indian request for proposals (RfP) vague and unclear on several points, so compiling the technical bids could require extra time.
The RfPs were sent out 18 months after the request for information was floated in December 2005. An extension of the bid deadline would further delay the procurement. Moreover, the tenure of the United Progressive Alliance government, which ends in mid-2009, is likely to be another drag on the process.
It is estimated that the first MMRCA will not be inducted until after 2017, adding to the pressure on the Indian air force’s depleting fleet strength, a senior air force official said.

Link

OMG 2017

So if it is gonna be 2017, why does India need MRCA??? Why doesn't she produce more LCA Tejas???

If it is gonna be 2017.............4.5 generation fighters are out of question. Even 5th gen fighters will be about to be taken over by something better.

Share your views

Despite being a Brit, I think India would be best served by the Second Gen SAAB JAS39 Gripen. The lead-in time is among the least of the potential selections, the plane is as multi-role as it gets, it's the lightest out there and the Indian AF pilots expressed a liking for it (see the SU30MKI vs Typhoon thread).

The plane is to replace the MiG 21, so give the IAF a plane that is a complement to the MKI, not something that can replicate, or get close to replicating, its capabilities.

KW

I just lobe the stats and everything of Mig 35.

I guess that will be the ultimate choice

Hey guys!!!!!

What do u think will be the choice for Indian MRCA deal??

I personally love Mig 35 and feel that must be the ultimate choice, but I have a feeling that after 123 its the turn of 126.......

And if that is the case I just wish it is Super Hornet and not F 16.

I'm a bit confused over the geo-political scenario of India-Russia and India-USA relations as both will try to armtwist India but I think Indians are hard negotiators. But where does India go from here.

All these questions make me blurred over the ultimate choice for 126 (possibly 200 or 240...as per recent news).

Kindly share your views.

Hope India does not fall into the age old stereotype and go for the MIG 35. It may be a good aircraft, but not yet proven in battle. The F-16S should be Indias choice. Its kill rate surpasses any other in the world. That would truly make the Indian inventory a "universal" and formidable one

The latest position on this programme seems to be that both US contenders, the F-16IN and F/A-18A, the SAAB Gripen and the MiG-35 have all been rejected by India, leaving a choice between the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon, the final decision is scheduled to be madevin September this year. that's according to a source I've seen today.