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Are the Pyramids of Giza a 'Precession Clock' pointing to the past and future?
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reply to post by Byrd
SC: This is what the AEs themselves tell us. The blueprint or model would have to have been crafted in some form of durable material in order to last. The design would also most likely have come with an oral tradition. The custodians of the blueprint (perhaps the Shemsu-Hor or ‘Followers of Horus’) ensured its passage through time and would have transmitted any oral tradition that went along with the model e.g. its association with Sah (Orion), its association with the ‘continuation of life’. The custodians may well have become the AE priesthood whom we know exerted great influence over the Pharaohs.
SC: The design, model or blueprint had been with them for thousands of years. It was part and parcel of their religious and cultural life. This model represented the Zep Tepi. It came from the heavens of the ‘First Time’ and was somehow associated with the ‘continuation of life’! Of course it was important to them – even if they had long forgotten the deeper knowledge their ancient forebears had encoded into it.
SC: They built the pyramids according to the design. They wishes to build heaven on Earth. They may not have remembered or had the ability to figure out the deeper knowledge but that it came from the ‘First Time’ and was associated with ‘continuation of life’ was a quality Pharaoh wanted for himself. So, the AE knew exactly why THEY wished to build the plan given to them – for their own cultural and religious ideas, the central core of which – to safeguard the Pharaoh’s soul into the afterlife – was a thow-back to the original message of the design i.e. ‘a continuation of life’ after an Earth cataclysm. As the saying goes, forewarned is forearmed.
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Byrd:
* the ancient unnamed civilization somehow got the plan for the design into the hands of Imhotep.
SC: This is what the AEs themselves tell us. The blueprint or model would have to have been crafted in some form of durable material in order to last. The design would also most likely have come with an oral tradition. The custodians of the blueprint (perhaps the Shemsu-Hor or ‘Followers of Horus’) ensured its passage through time and would have transmitted any oral tradition that went along with the model e.g. its association with Sah (Orion), its association with the ‘continuation of life’. The custodians may well have become the AE priesthood whom we know exerted great influence over the Pharaohs.
Byrd:
* the Egyptians somehow recognized this as an important and sacred design.
SC: The design, model or blueprint had been with them for thousands of years. It was part and parcel of their religious and cultural life. This model represented the Zep Tepi. It came from the heavens of the ‘First Time’ and was somehow associated with the ‘continuation of life’! Of course it was important to them – even if they had long forgotten the deeper knowledge their ancient forebears had encoded into it.
Byrd:
* the ancient Egyptians built pyramids until they could build a "perfect" one, and then put up Giza and followed the design without knowing why and then quit building pyramids.
SC: They built the pyramids according to the design. They wishes to build heaven on Earth. They may not have remembered or had the ability to figure out the deeper knowledge but that it came from the ‘First Time’ and was associated with ‘continuation of life’ was a quality Pharaoh wanted for himself. So, the AE knew exactly why THEY wished to build the plan given to them – for their own cultural and religious ideas, the central core of which – to safeguard the Pharaoh’s soul into the afterlife – was a thow-back to the original message of the design i.e. ‘a continuation of life’ after an Earth cataclysm. As the saying goes, forewarned is forearmed.
More…
reply to post by Byrd
SC: I think I have shown through my work that there can be little doubt that the 3 main pyramids symbolise the belt stars of Orion and that the 2 sets of Queens demonstrate to us the precessional maximum and minimum culmination of those stars over around 13,000 years. That only the max and min culmination needs to be shown to demonstrate this further explains why there are no so-called ‘Queens Pyramids’ of Khafre despite him having more Queens than is two counterparts at Giza. Furthermore, the concavities of Khufu and Menkaure demonstrate to us the unique setting of the Orion Belts stars c.10,500BC on the southwest horizon (Khafre/Al Nilam has set whilst Khufu/Al Nitak and Menkaure/Mintaka sit just above the horizon) and is a feature essential to dating the design. When we measure Menkaure’s azimuth from the Khafre centre we find it is 212º azimuth. When we then check when Mintaka was located at 212º azimuth we find it is c.10,550BC. And lo and behold we also find at this time that the three belts stars sit perfectly horizontal near the SW horizon – mimicked perfectly by the 3 Queens of Menkaure that are also aligned such. When we push the clock forward 13,000 years (c.2,500AD) we find the belt stars precess to the Eastern horizon (from Khafre centre) and rotate 90º thus reflecting the location and arrangement of the Queens of Khufu.
Are you seriously trying to argue that the pyramids at Giza are not symbolic of stars – the stars of Orion’s Belt? I am sorry but the correlation I have presented with the evidence of the Gizamids and their unique features that no one has yet adequately been able to explain, is simply too compelling to be so easily dismissed.
And this is why, as previously mentioned, I believe the pyramid is a 3D representation of the way the AEs depicted their stars in 2D form with 5 points. A pyramid has 5 points (4 corners + 1 apex).
SC: You’re right, there’s not. But don’t you think that this information is just ever so slightly essential? And for such essential information, don’t you think the most logical place to encode it would be within the most striking of all the pyramids? As it turns out, I think this is exactly their logic and what they did. This information had to be encoded in one of the pyramids. Indeed, if I had found it in Khafre or elsewhere you would be saying the same thing.
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Byrd: There's no time reference to 25,772 years and no way to derive it from your design.
SC: I beg to differ. A pyramid is a star, expressed by the AE as having 5 points.
Byrd: How can you come to that conclusion? There are many references to pyramids throughout the thousand or so years of pyramid construction. None of them are related in the texts to stars. Nor are there stars associated with the pictures of pyramids.
SC: I think I have shown through my work that there can be little doubt that the 3 main pyramids symbolise the belt stars of Orion and that the 2 sets of Queens demonstrate to us the precessional maximum and minimum culmination of those stars over around 13,000 years. That only the max and min culmination needs to be shown to demonstrate this further explains why there are no so-called ‘Queens Pyramids’ of Khafre despite him having more Queens than is two counterparts at Giza. Furthermore, the concavities of Khufu and Menkaure demonstrate to us the unique setting of the Orion Belts stars c.10,500BC on the southwest horizon (Khafre/Al Nilam has set whilst Khufu/Al Nitak and Menkaure/Mintaka sit just above the horizon) and is a feature essential to dating the design. When we measure Menkaure’s azimuth from the Khafre centre we find it is 212º azimuth. When we then check when Mintaka was located at 212º azimuth we find it is c.10,550BC. And lo and behold we also find at this time that the three belts stars sit perfectly horizontal near the SW horizon – mimicked perfectly by the 3 Queens of Menkaure that are also aligned such. When we push the clock forward 13,000 years (c.2,500AD) we find the belt stars precess to the Eastern horizon (from Khafre centre) and rotate 90º thus reflecting the location and arrangement of the Queens of Khufu.
Are you seriously trying to argue that the pyramids at Giza are not symbolic of stars – the stars of Orion’s Belt? I am sorry but the correlation I have presented with the evidence of the Gizamids and their unique features that no one has yet adequately been able to explain, is simply too compelling to be so easily dismissed.
And this is why, as previously mentioned, I believe the pyramid is a 3D representation of the way the AEs depicted their stars in 2D form with 5 points. A pyramid has 5 points (4 corners + 1 apex).
SC: The slope of the GP is 51.84. Expressed as 5184 we find the sqr root is 72. This is a value that is very close to our present precessional rate of 71.6 years per 1º shift.
Byrd: That doesn't qualify as "highly accurate". There's no reference that indicates "use the GP, Luke" instead of "use the one with 4 pyramids outside it" or "use the little one that's off centered" or "average all the slopes and use that."
SC: You’re right, there’s not. But don’t you think that this information is just ever so slightly essential? And for such essential information, don’t you think the most logical place to encode it would be within the most striking of all the pyramids? As it turns out, I think this is exactly their logic and what they did. This information had to be encoded in one of the pyramids. Indeed, if I had found it in Khafre or elsewhere you would be saying the same thing.
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reply to post by Byrd
SC: You will be familiar no doubt with [I]Hamlet’s Mill[/I] (de Santillana and von Dechend), In this book the writers investigate the origins of human knowledge and its transmission through time. The writers found how specific numbers consistently crop up in many of the world’s most ancient myths and cosmologies. The number ‘72’ is quite prominent among such numbers. As is 720, 7,200 etc. Different cultures found different ways of encoding in their cosmology and myths what is essentially the same number ‘72’. Furthermore, it is easier to recite ‘72 hungry wolves’ than ‘71.58 hungry wolves’.
SC: We see such casing stones only in the top courses of Khafre. We see none in any of the other pyramids so, where’s your unequivocal proof that these pyramids were indeed covered by casing stones? If an earthquake shook them loose to be taken to build Cairo, how come there are still some at the top of G2?
SC: I have no reason to believe that the completed structure would change the angle of slope?? Indeed, as I understand it, the measured slope is effectively given as though the structure was indeed smooth. I don’t understand your point here.
SC: And you are ignoring my argument that the pyramids are NOT in the wrong positions to indicate Orion’s belt. I really don’t know how else to explain this to you?
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SC:
72 x 5 = 360.
5184 x 5 = 25,920.
25,920/72 = 360.
Byrd:That's off by about 200 years -- not "highly accurate." To reach that, you had to fudge things and multiply by 100.
SC: You will be familiar no doubt with [I]Hamlet’s Mill[/I] (de Santillana and von Dechend), In this book the writers investigate the origins of human knowledge and its transmission through time. The writers found how specific numbers consistently crop up in many of the world’s most ancient myths and cosmologies. The number ‘72’ is quite prominent among such numbers. As is 720, 7,200 etc. Different cultures found different ways of encoding in their cosmology and myths what is essentially the same number ‘72’. Furthermore, it is easier to recite ‘72 hungry wolves’ than ‘71.58 hungry wolves’.
Byrd: Furthermore, you're using the current structure. It was faced with limestone blocks that were thicker at the bottom and got thinner as you went toward the top.
SC: We see such casing stones only in the top courses of Khafre. We see none in any of the other pyramids so, where’s your unequivocal proof that these pyramids were indeed covered by casing stones? If an earthquake shook them loose to be taken to build Cairo, how come there are still some at the top of G2?
Byrd: This changes the angle of the slope. You don't cite why they would use the angles of the core stones rather than the angles of the completed structure.
SC: I have no reason to believe that the completed structure would change the angle of slope?? Indeed, as I understand it, the measured slope is effectively given as though the structure was indeed smooth. I don’t understand your point here.
SC: But again you miss the point. The PURPOSE of marking the start and end points is NOT to enable us to plot the movement of the belt stars. The PURPOSE of marking the start and end points like this is to enable us to KNOW WHICH 3 STARS the Designers were indicating with the 3 main pyramids.
Byrd: You talk about purpose and knowing as though you had access to the records that prove this. You ignore the data that the pyramids are in the wrong position to indicate Orion's belt….
SC: And you are ignoring my argument that the pyramids are NOT in the wrong positions to indicate Orion’s belt. I really don’t know how else to explain this to you?
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reply to post by Byrd
SC: From the Pyramid Texts:
"Behold he (the king) has come as Orion, behold Osiris has come as Orion...
O King, the sky conceives you with Orion, the dawn-light bears you with Orion... you will regularly ascend with Orion from the EASTERN REGION of the sky, you will regularly descend with Orion in the WESTERN REGION of the sky... [PT820-2]
"O King, you are this great star, the companion of Orion... the sky has born you with Orion... [PT882-3]
"The king has come that he may glorify Orion..." [PT 925]
"The Duat has grasped your hand at the place where Orion is... [PT802]
"May you (the King) ascend to the sky, may the sky give birth to you like Orion... [PT2116]
"Live and be young beside your father (Osiris), beside Orion in the sky..." [PT186]
SC: Okay – now I realise I can’t be explaining this properly so perhaps the fault here is mine. There is absolutely NO NEED for a circular trench. Period.
SC: When the belt stars are on the SW horizon they actually mark a very important moment into the precessional motion of the stars and I have mentioned this already on numerous occasions. This is when (c.10,550BC) the belt stars have reached maximum culmination. In other words, the turning point for the pendulum swing to swing in the opposite direction towards the minimum culmination point of the eastern horizon. This is a very significant point here – THEY HAD THIS KNOWLEDGE of the max and min culmination points and demonstrated for us on the ground how the belt stars would be orientated and on what horizons. I have stated the start date of the precession wheel clock on numerous occasions in this thread. Indeed, it’s even in this paragraph.
SC: Please re-read my previous posts. I have explained this.
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Byrd: …there's no art or text linking the complex to Orion…
SC: From the Pyramid Texts:
"Behold he (the king) has come as Orion, behold Osiris has come as Orion...
O King, the sky conceives you with Orion, the dawn-light bears you with Orion... you will regularly ascend with Orion from the EASTERN REGION of the sky, you will regularly descend with Orion in the WESTERN REGION of the sky... [PT820-2]
"O King, you are this great star, the companion of Orion... the sky has born you with Orion... [PT882-3]
"The king has come that he may glorify Orion..." [PT 925]
"The Duat has grasped your hand at the place where Orion is... [PT802]
"May you (the King) ascend to the sky, may the sky give birth to you like Orion... [PT2116]
"Live and be young beside your father (Osiris), beside Orion in the sky..." [PT186]
Byrd:… no indication of a circular trench…
SC: Okay – now I realise I can’t be explaining this properly so perhaps the fault here is mine. There is absolutely NO NEED for a circular trench. Period.
Byrd: … and the explaination of "why start when the belt stars are on the horizon" is "to mark a date the ancient civlization... " and then don't specify the date
SC: When the belt stars are on the SW horizon they actually mark a very important moment into the precessional motion of the stars and I have mentioned this already on numerous occasions. This is when (c.10,550BC) the belt stars have reached maximum culmination. In other words, the turning point for the pendulum swing to swing in the opposite direction towards the minimum culmination point of the eastern horizon. This is a very significant point here – THEY HAD THIS KNOWLEDGE of the max and min culmination points and demonstrated for us on the ground how the belt stars would be orientated and on what horizons. I have stated the start date of the precession wheel clock on numerous occasions in this thread. Indeed, it’s even in this paragraph.
SC: And this would present us with a problem since we simply have to know the 3 stars the main pyramids represent since it is one of these 3 pyramdis that represents the star the ancients measured to set the start date of their clock.
Byrd: The mysterious "ancients." You haven't explained why they felt the belt stars were so important or why they'd use stars to set the start date of their clock or why their calculations are imprecise.
SC: Please re-read my previous posts. I have explained this.
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reply to post by Byrd
SC: Eh, no! Certainly all stars precess west to east but ONLY Orion’s belt precesses from a sarting max culmination point of 212* azimuth c.10,550BC as indicated by the astronomical alignment of Menkaure and confirmed by the horizontal arrangement of the 3 Menkaure Queens matching the horizontal arrangment of the belt stars in the SW at the same time. And ONLY Orion’s Belt sets with the centre star below the horizon whilst the other 2 stars are still above the horizon as symbolised by the concavities of Khufu and Menkaure. That Khafre has no concavities symbolises that it has set below the horizon. All of this is presented in the design.
SC: You can submit whatever you like but before you do so I would advise that you get your facts straight first. I think you are perhaps referring to Bauval/Gilbert Orion theory. The OCT was their idea and had little to do with Hancock. And if you really meant to say Bauval then I can point you to many of our discussions that demonstrate clearly I am no supporter of Robert Bauval nor is he of me.
SC: I have explained already in an earlier post how Menkaure is unique. In terms of its size, it has no equal at Giza whilst all other pyramids there have at least one other structure that is of comparable sze.
SC: When the belt stars were aligned horizontal on the SW horizon c. 10,550BC, we find that Mintaka (the misaligned star of the belt) sits at 212* azimuth. And lo and behold – Menkaure’s azimuth (from Khafre centre) is also 212*. And also, the Menkaure Queens sit near the SW horizon (from Khafre centre) thus mimicking the horizontal belt stars at this time.
Regards,
SC
SC: The ancients realised this problem and ensured that they provided within their design a mechanism whereby we simply could not fail to select the correct triad of stars. They did this by marking the start and end points of the precessional motion of their chosen triad of stars. ONLY the Orion Belt stars precess across the sky in this manner and because of this we can be certain which stars the ancients are indicating to us in the main design i.e. the 3 main pyramids - Orion’s Belt.
ALL stars precess across the sky in that manner.
SC: Eh, no! Certainly all stars precess west to east but ONLY Orion’s belt precesses from a sarting max culmination point of 212* azimuth c.10,550BC as indicated by the astronomical alignment of Menkaure and confirmed by the horizontal arrangement of the 3 Menkaure Queens matching the horizontal arrangment of the belt stars in the SW at the same time. And ONLY Orion’s Belt sets with the centre star below the horizon whilst the other 2 stars are still above the horizon as symbolised by the concavities of Khufu and Menkaure. That Khafre has no concavities symbolises that it has set below the horizon. All of this is presented in the design.
The reason you picked Orion is because of Hancock... not because of a knowledge of what this mysterious lost ancient civilization did. If Hancock had said "Aquarius" or "Big dipper" I submit that you'd be hammering and tweaking your idea to fit his (wrong) ideas.
SC: You can submit whatever you like but before you do so I would advise that you get your facts straight first. I think you are perhaps referring to Bauval/Gilbert Orion theory. The OCT was their idea and had little to do with Hancock. And if you really meant to say Bauval then I can point you to many of our discussions that demonstrate clearly I am no supporter of Robert Bauval nor is he of me.
SC: Now that we know the correct triad of stars, what we have to then do is determine which of the 3 stars was used to set the clock’s start date. By ensuring Menkaure was significantly different (and indeed quite unique) from the other main pyramids it is logical to conclude that it is Menkaure’s alignment that was placed according to its celestial counterpart, Mintaka.
Byrd: Unique? How? Each pyramid is unique in its shape, its volume, and the number of satellite pyramids and temples.
SC: I have explained already in an earlier post how Menkaure is unique. In terms of its size, it has no equal at Giza whilst all other pyramids there have at least one other structure that is of comparable sze.
Byrd: And how is it "placed according to its celestial counterpart"?
SC: When the belt stars were aligned horizontal on the SW horizon c. 10,550BC, we find that Mintaka (the misaligned star of the belt) sits at 212* azimuth. And lo and behold – Menkaure’s azimuth (from Khafre centre) is also 212*. And also, the Menkaure Queens sit near the SW horizon (from Khafre centre) thus mimicking the horizontal belt stars at this time.
Regards,
SC
Howdy Scott
So lets review:
Anything in your idea that matches up is proof positive on an advance civilization but anything that doesn't match up is dismissed as unimportant?
Plato, so you seem to insist that we believe what Plato wrote *(about an advance civilization) but also feel we should ignore that he also wrote that they weren't actually more advanced that the Greeks - is that your stand?
Scott, you do know about cherry picking and the pitfalls of falling in love with your idea don't you?
May I make the following recommendation to help eliminate the two problems above.
Make an exhaustive and complete list of all possible math and dimensional comparisions between Orion and the Pyramids. How many equal the accuracy of the "212" and how many do not? Which of these do you accept and which do you dismiss, state your criteria for doing either action.
Byrd can you suggest any other methodogical criterias he could explore to give him somemore substantial to chew on?
Secondly in lieu of no evidence for an advance civilization does your idea have any real legs to stand on?
*If Plato was correct then 'Atlantis' was destroyed around 9500 BC, 1-2 thousand years before the event you are theorizing about. That is a large margin of error.
[edit on 26-9-2007 by Hanslune]
So lets review:
Anything in your idea that matches up is proof positive on an advance civilization but anything that doesn't match up is dismissed as unimportant?
Plato, so you seem to insist that we believe what Plato wrote *(about an advance civilization) but also feel we should ignore that he also wrote that they weren't actually more advanced that the Greeks - is that your stand?
Scott, you do know about cherry picking and the pitfalls of falling in love with your idea don't you?
May I make the following recommendation to help eliminate the two problems above.
Make an exhaustive and complete list of all possible math and dimensional comparisions between Orion and the Pyramids. How many equal the accuracy of the "212" and how many do not? Which of these do you accept and which do you dismiss, state your criteria for doing either action.
Byrd can you suggest any other methodogical criterias he could explore to give him somemore substantial to chew on?
Secondly in lieu of no evidence for an advance civilization does your idea have any real legs to stand on?
*If Plato was correct then 'Atlantis' was destroyed around 9500 BC, 1-2 thousand years before the event you are theorizing about. That is a large margin of error.
[edit on 26-9-2007 by Hanslune]
just a few thoughts adding to the predynastic origin of the pyramids.
narmer's paltette,which has been mentioned in other threads,is taken to be the first indication of a united [upper and lower egypt]kingdom,as on one side narmer wears the crown of upper egypt and on the other side he wears the crown of lower egypt.one side shows a large relief of narmer subuing an enemy.the back side is germane to the questions of the pyramids existing in predynastic times.the back side shows a stylized representation of egypt ,with the top being southern egypt and the bottom northern egypt.various points down the river are thought to be actual places in egypt.at the bottom ,where the nile would enter the meditterean sea is a pyramid.of course it is in two dimensions as this is a bas relief.
so it seems that the predynastic egyptians acknowledged the pyramids existance
another point is that the dynastic egyptians did not have the technical knowhow to built the giza complex.this is clear because the only pyramids with a slope of 51 degrees are the pyramids at giza.the collapsed pyramid started at 51 degrees but ,well, collapsed.the bent pyramid also under construction ,was then changed from a foundation that started at 51 degrees then changed to 43.5 degrees to complete it.hence it's profile and name ,the bent pyramid.no other pyramids were attempted with the 51 degree slope.all other egyptian pyramids have a slope of 43.5 degrees.
that the great pyramid is not a mortuary structure is made clear by the fact that there are no incised markings on anywhere in or on the great pyramid.all other pyramids are heavily worked by having chapters of the book of the dead inscribed throught the structures,indicative of a funerary purpose.
fortune
[edit on 26-9-2007 by fortune]
narmer's paltette,which has been mentioned in other threads,is taken to be the first indication of a united [upper and lower egypt]kingdom,as on one side narmer wears the crown of upper egypt and on the other side he wears the crown of lower egypt.one side shows a large relief of narmer subuing an enemy.the back side is germane to the questions of the pyramids existing in predynastic times.the back side shows a stylized representation of egypt ,with the top being southern egypt and the bottom northern egypt.various points down the river are thought to be actual places in egypt.at the bottom ,where the nile would enter the meditterean sea is a pyramid.of course it is in two dimensions as this is a bas relief.
so it seems that the predynastic egyptians acknowledged the pyramids existance
another point is that the dynastic egyptians did not have the technical knowhow to built the giza complex.this is clear because the only pyramids with a slope of 51 degrees are the pyramids at giza.the collapsed pyramid started at 51 degrees but ,well, collapsed.the bent pyramid also under construction ,was then changed from a foundation that started at 51 degrees then changed to 43.5 degrees to complete it.hence it's profile and name ,the bent pyramid.no other pyramids were attempted with the 51 degree slope.all other egyptian pyramids have a slope of 43.5 degrees.
that the great pyramid is not a mortuary structure is made clear by the fact that there are no incised markings on anywhere in or on the great pyramid.all other pyramids are heavily worked by having chapters of the book of the dead inscribed throught the structures,indicative of a funerary purpose.
fortune
[edit on 26-9-2007 by fortune]
reply to post by Hanslune
Hello Hans,
SC: I think this is misrepresenting my position, Hans. Certainly I believe a previous ‘high civilisation’ existed in prehistory. How ‘advanced’ this civilisation was I have no idea. What I do know is that this civilisation had a firm grasp of higher mathematics, astronomy and most likely geodesy. This civilisation had this higher knowledge long before the Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans. Alas, however, this ‘higher knowledge’ was lost as was the civilisation for reasons we can only guess at but which science is now perhaps providing a possible answer to. The term ‘advanced’ is very subjective, you know. I have never proposed that this civilisation (whoever they were) had electricity, spark plugs, iPods, nuclear bombs, 4x4s or anything remotely like this. They had ‘advanced knowledge’. So, I am not dismissing what Plato writes about Atlantis – I am merely saying that this civilisation were advanced in ways that would not necessarily leave any specific trace – unless, of course, they wished to do so. And they did – they expressed their advanced knowledge (not technology) through a design they created that would one day provide the inspiration for Giza.
I do not believe Plato’s story is in any way to be an exact account of Atlantis and the Atlanteans (if this is indeed our lost ‘advanced civilisation’). But with any myth, I believe the myth grows over time and becomes ever more embelished, sometimes to suit particular political agendas of the day. However, I also believe that in such myths there exists also a seed of truth. A civilisation most likely did exist c.10,500BC who had great understanding of the physical world they lived in which they expressed through their mathematics and astronomy but were lost (along with the rest of humanity around the world) when the Earth was overwhelmed by a cataclysm of some description.
SC: I am categorically not cherry-picking and anyone who looks at my ideas will see this. And neither am I blinded by my ideas. I wake up each day and am for ever questioning these ideas, analysing them. Sometimes I even think it cannot be, it must be wrong! These are not the thoughts of someone ‘in love’ with their idea, I can assure you. Indeed, this is why I entered this debate when I saw my work being discussed. I genuinely welcome open-minded discussion.
SC: Hans I don’t think you quite appreciate just how long I have been working on these ideas and how much analysis I have already made. The design, actually, is very simple. If the Designers had made it any more difficult, chances are no future civilisation would have ever uncovered it. All you need do is measure (from Khafre centre) the azimuth through the apex of G3. In a nutshell this is what provides the universal date for the clock’s start point i.e. at the Sphinx. Other elements have been built into the design to ensure we cannot fail to select the correct triad of stars and other design features ensure that we cannot fail to select the correct pyramid/star within the 3 main Gizamids. It’s really that simple.
More...
Hello Hans,
Hans: Anything in your idea that matches up is proof positive of an advance civilization but anything that doesn't match up is dismissed as unimportant?
SC: I think this is misrepresenting my position, Hans. Certainly I believe a previous ‘high civilisation’ existed in prehistory. How ‘advanced’ this civilisation was I have no idea. What I do know is that this civilisation had a firm grasp of higher mathematics, astronomy and most likely geodesy. This civilisation had this higher knowledge long before the Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans. Alas, however, this ‘higher knowledge’ was lost as was the civilisation for reasons we can only guess at but which science is now perhaps providing a possible answer to. The term ‘advanced’ is very subjective, you know. I have never proposed that this civilisation (whoever they were) had electricity, spark plugs, iPods, nuclear bombs, 4x4s or anything remotely like this. They had ‘advanced knowledge’. So, I am not dismissing what Plato writes about Atlantis – I am merely saying that this civilisation were advanced in ways that would not necessarily leave any specific trace – unless, of course, they wished to do so. And they did – they expressed their advanced knowledge (not technology) through a design they created that would one day provide the inspiration for Giza.
I do not believe Plato’s story is in any way to be an exact account of Atlantis and the Atlanteans (if this is indeed our lost ‘advanced civilisation’). But with any myth, I believe the myth grows over time and becomes ever more embelished, sometimes to suit particular political agendas of the day. However, I also believe that in such myths there exists also a seed of truth. A civilisation most likely did exist c.10,500BC who had great understanding of the physical world they lived in which they expressed through their mathematics and astronomy but were lost (along with the rest of humanity around the world) when the Earth was overwhelmed by a cataclysm of some description.
Hans: Scott, you do know about cherry picking and the pitfalls of falling in love with your idea don't you?
SC: I am categorically not cherry-picking and anyone who looks at my ideas will see this. And neither am I blinded by my ideas. I wake up each day and am for ever questioning these ideas, analysing them. Sometimes I even think it cannot be, it must be wrong! These are not the thoughts of someone ‘in love’ with their idea, I can assure you. Indeed, this is why I entered this debate when I saw my work being discussed. I genuinely welcome open-minded discussion.
Hans: Make an exhaustive and complete list of all possible math and dimensional comparisions between Orion and the Pyramids. How many equal the accuracy of the "212" and how many do not? Which of these do you accept and which do you dismiss, state your criteria for doing either action.
SC: Hans I don’t think you quite appreciate just how long I have been working on these ideas and how much analysis I have already made. The design, actually, is very simple. If the Designers had made it any more difficult, chances are no future civilisation would have ever uncovered it. All you need do is measure (from Khafre centre) the azimuth through the apex of G3. In a nutshell this is what provides the universal date for the clock’s start point i.e. at the Sphinx. Other elements have been built into the design to ensure we cannot fail to select the correct triad of stars and other design features ensure that we cannot fail to select the correct pyramid/star within the 3 main Gizamids. It’s really that simple.
More...
reply to post by Hanslune
SC: I submit that my idea better explains some of the features and anomalies at Giza than the prevailing model does. Furthermore, my ideas offer explanations for such anomalies that the prevailing view has never even considered or has singularly failed to offer up any plausible answers to (e.g. the concavities and the missing Queens of Khafre). This knowledge is clearly and plainly expressed. If this was not built into the blueprint by the AEs then we have to look to a civilisation that predated the AEs.
SC: No, it’s not actually. If you look at the dates I offer in my work you will see that there are 3 past dates indicated: 10,550BC, 9,884BC and 8,066BC. My work contends that an event occurred in 10,550BC but that the main cataclysm occurred in 9,884BC – that is 666 years after the primary event. This is very close to the date Plato offers. These dates correlate very well though not exactly with the dates Dr Paul LaViolette offers in his book, Earth Under Fire.
In LaViolette’s theory, the first date marks when the light and radiation from an explosion of the galactic core is first observed on Earth. The shockwave from this explosion would have sent all manner of debris from our own solar system into chaos, sending some of it on a collision course with the Earth. This heavier debris (perhaps from the Kuipier Belt) would take another 666 years to impact on the Earth. The final date is when this blue light from the galactic core explosion finaly fades – some 2,484 years after the initial event. From his analysis of the ice core record, LaViolette has been able to determine that these galactic core explosion occur much more frquently than first thought – around every 10,000 years or thereabouts.
Regards,
SC
Secondly in lieu of no evidence for an advance civilization does your idea have any real legs to stand on?
SC: I submit that my idea better explains some of the features and anomalies at Giza than the prevailing model does. Furthermore, my ideas offer explanations for such anomalies that the prevailing view has never even considered or has singularly failed to offer up any plausible answers to (e.g. the concavities and the missing Queens of Khafre). This knowledge is clearly and plainly expressed. If this was not built into the blueprint by the AEs then we have to look to a civilisation that predated the AEs.
Hans: *If Plato was correct then 'Atlantis' was destroyed around 9500 BC, 1-2 thousand years before the event you are theorizing about. That is a large margin of error.
SC: No, it’s not actually. If you look at the dates I offer in my work you will see that there are 3 past dates indicated: 10,550BC, 9,884BC and 8,066BC. My work contends that an event occurred in 10,550BC but that the main cataclysm occurred in 9,884BC – that is 666 years after the primary event. This is very close to the date Plato offers. These dates correlate very well though not exactly with the dates Dr Paul LaViolette offers in his book, Earth Under Fire.
In LaViolette’s theory, the first date marks when the light and radiation from an explosion of the galactic core is first observed on Earth. The shockwave from this explosion would have sent all manner of debris from our own solar system into chaos, sending some of it on a collision course with the Earth. This heavier debris (perhaps from the Kuipier Belt) would take another 666 years to impact on the Earth. The final date is when this blue light from the galactic core explosion finaly fades – some 2,484 years after the initial event. From his analysis of the ice core record, LaViolette has been able to determine that these galactic core explosion occur much more frquently than first thought – around every 10,000 years or thereabouts.
Regards,
SC
Looking at your ideas...
I still find this really unconvincing. "314" could be a lot of things. 314159 could ONLY be pi. I'm also unconvinced that "314" was meant, given the presence of at least one unfinished pyramid at the site.
I'm afraid that things fall apart right there. We have good data, and there is no extinction at or around 26,000 years or at or around 39,000 years. The Holocene extinction of the mammals began somewhat before your 13,000 year date and was slow -- took place over a period of about 4,000 years ( en.wikipedia.org... among others). It was not an eyeblink event. Nor had a similar event occurred 13,000 years before that.
There's no crater of sufficient size. You may be overestimating the explosive power of meteors. One that's big enough to leave a 1 mile impact area really only has the power of a 1.7 megaton bomb.
www.alaska.net...
That's smaller than the bombs we dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima:
en.wikipedia.org...
Here you're speculating -- and then turning those speculations into fact. You imagine a civilization and then tell us (in a way that you insist is unquestionable) that they wished to pass down knowledge. And it's not a lot of knowledge nor is it an accurate knowledge. And you imagine a civilization that's too stupid to move out of the way of the rising waters from the icecap melt as the Holocene climate warms.
The rate of rise of the sea level was 14 meters (about 42 feet and change) ver 8,000 years. Even primitive hunter-fishers shifted their camps when the tides got too close. I find it hard to believe that a real civilization would sit there and not move as water washed into their houses and places of healing and that they couldn't rebuild elsewhere.
They "message" makes no sense, when they could have easily engraved a huge metal plate (or sculpted rock) with a picture and writing and been very specific about it. In fact, there's a number of rock art sites (dating older than your imagined civilization) that record astronomical events, and it's pretty plain to see what they mean.
Again, the evidence does not support your idea.
Beyond the simple fact that they could have carved it into a mountain or carved it on the desert floor or built it for themselves, the genetic data does not show a population bottleneck then. We do see human genetic bottlenecks 140,000 and 60,000 years ago but not after that.
But there aren't any cataclysmic cycles.
[edit on 26-9-2007 by Byrd]
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
SC: A civilisation that understood higher math (i.e. the Pi constant expressed as a decimal fraction), astronomy (precession) and geodesy – yes. I don’t think they had iPods, or drove 4x4s or had flying machines or nuclear bombs though.
I still find this really unconvincing. "314" could be a lot of things. 314159 could ONLY be pi. I'm also unconvinced that "314" was meant, given the presence of at least one unfinished pyramid at the site.
SC: This civilisation had awareness of a cataclysmic cycle which the Earth passes through every 13,000 years or thereabouts; knowledge that is presently lost to our civilisation.
I'm afraid that things fall apart right there. We have good data, and there is no extinction at or around 26,000 years or at or around 39,000 years. The Holocene extinction of the mammals began somewhat before your 13,000 year date and was slow -- took place over a period of about 4,000 years ( en.wikipedia.org... among others). It was not an eyeblink event. Nor had a similar event occurred 13,000 years before that.
When this civilisation was destroyed c10,500BC (possibly as a result of a meteor impacting upon the Earth causing a shft of the Earths axis),
There's no crater of sufficient size. You may be overestimating the explosive power of meteors. One that's big enough to leave a 1 mile impact area really only has the power of a 1.7 megaton bomb.
www.alaska.net...
That's smaller than the bombs we dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima:
en.wikipedia.org...
the enlightened survivors (The Designers) encoded this knowledge into a design – possibly a scaled-down model crafted in granite or some other durable material of the Giza monuments. This was done because they possibly (for good reason) believed their own civilisation would very quickly descend into a stoneage existence and lose most, if not all, of the knowledge it possessed. They wished to pass down the knowledge of this ‘cycle of cataclysms’ to future civilisations as a forewarning. They crafted a very specific design that encoded this information in the hope that at some future date, a civilsiation would arise that would look at their design and see their ‘message’.
Here you're speculating -- and then turning those speculations into fact. You imagine a civilization and then tell us (in a way that you insist is unquestionable) that they wished to pass down knowledge. And it's not a lot of knowledge nor is it an accurate knowledge. And you imagine a civilization that's too stupid to move out of the way of the rising waters from the icecap melt as the Holocene climate warms.
The rate of rise of the sea level was 14 meters (about 42 feet and change) ver 8,000 years. Even primitive hunter-fishers shifted their camps when the tides got too close. I find it hard to believe that a real civilization would sit there and not move as water washed into their houses and places of healing and that they couldn't rebuild elsewhere.
They "message" makes no sense, when they could have easily engraved a huge metal plate (or sculpted rock) with a picture and writing and been very specific about it. In fact, there's a number of rock art sites (dating older than your imagined civilization) that record astronomical events, and it's pretty plain to see what they mean.
Naturally such a design would have to be built at a future date when mankind had sufficiently recovered from the cataclysm.
Again, the evidence does not support your idea.
Beyond the simple fact that they could have carved it into a mountain or carved it on the desert floor or built it for themselves, the genetic data does not show a population bottleneck then. We do see human genetic bottlenecks 140,000 and 60,000 years ago but not after that.
And when it was finally built it was to be built so large that it would last as a ‘message for all time, through each and every cycle of cataclysm’.
But there aren't any cataclysmic cycles.
[edit on 26-9-2007 by Byrd]
Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by Byrd
Byrd:
* the ancient unnamed civilization somehow got the plan for the design into the hands of Imhotep.
SC: This is what the AEs themselves tell us.
Actually, they don't. Someone found the reference for me.
Here's what Aldred said verbatum:
The temples of Philae, now rebuilt on the adjacent island of Agilkia, are first of a series of magnificent stone buildings that arose on ancient foundations at Kom Ombos, Edfu and Esna in Ptolemaic and Roman times as far as Dendera 115 miles to the north. These vast edifices in their huge proportios, their unstinted use of sandstone and granite, their elaborate floriated capitals, their astronomical ceilings, their scrupulous detail and technical triumphs, have a solemn grandeur. They were built according to an architectural plan which was supposed to have been revealed in a codex that fell from heaven at Saqqara in the days of Imhotep. The most complete of them is the temple of the falcon god Horus at Edfu, built between 237 and 57 BC, the most perfectly preserved monument of the ancient world. It's many inscriptions have bequeathed a wealth of information about the founding of such temples, their construction and use. the daily ritual, the festivals and their dates, the duties of various priests, even the dimentions of each chamber, it's name and purpose, besides myths of very ancient origin."
Your source very plainly says the design of the temples -- and only the temples was what arrived and it didn't come to Imhotep, but to someone else. I think we can probably find an exact translation somewhere to confirm this.
And yes, after that date we find that the Egyptians built amost all of their temples along a rather basic floor plan:
touregypt.net...
Furthermore, as you can see in the text you read, the "codex" didn't land at the temple of Horus. The temple of Horus is one particularly nice example of the standard plan that was passed along by cultural means and by a design.
The blueprint or model would have to have been crafted in some form of durable material in order to last. The design would also most likely have come with an oral tradition. The custodians of the blueprint (perhaps the Shemsu-Hor or ‘Followers of Horus’) ensured its passage through time and would have transmitted any oral tradition that went along with the model e.g. its association with Sah (Orion), its association with the ‘continuation of life’. The custodians may well have become the AE priesthood whom we know exerted great influence over the Pharaohs.
Ah, but from your own original source we DO see an example of them following a codex and a tradition that was handed down. We don't see pyramids grouped in "314" arrangements before... or after Giza.
SC: The design, model or blueprint had been with them for thousands of years. It was part and parcel of their religious and cultural life. This model represented the Zep Tepi. It came from the heavens of the ‘First Time’ and was somehow associated with the ‘continuation of life’! Of course it was important to them – even if they had long forgotten the deeper knowledge their ancient forebears had encoded into it.
Now you go deeper into speculation about this and treat it as fact. And the only reference to "Zep Tepi" I find is not Egyptian but to that hoax, "emerald tablet of thoth."
I'm afraid that citing things from a modern hoax don't help your point.
[edit on 27-9-2007 by Byrd]
Howdy Scott and Byrd
One correction first, the 1.7 Megatons would have been a much larger explosion than the Hiroshima and Nagasaki explosions which were estimated at 13 and 21 Kilotons.
Thanks to Byrds for hunting down that exact translation - it makes a bit more sense now.
Scott, so the 'advanced' civilization didn't have technology but they had knowledge. I find it hard to conceive of how a civilization would ascertain cosmic cycles (and I agree with Byrd that there were none) without a technological advanced astronomy and mathematical ability. Unless you have a mathematically model of the solar system and a firm idea of physics and natural laws the events that happened way back then would best be described as "the anger of the gods".
Yes Scott I realize you have spent a lot of time on this but Byrd and I, both with only a limited knowledge of Egypt are able to punch huge holes in it - which also happened when you brought it out to the attention of the real Egyptologists at Hall of Ma'at. As hard as it may be to accept, IMHO you are 'guilty' of cherry picking and ignoring contrary data.
Again
1. No ancient 'advanced' civilization
2. Orion and the Pyramids don't match up
3. The events this is suspose to show didn't actually happen or were spread over a much longer period.
And as Byrd has shown you have been inaccuracy stating/misrepresenting existing data to fit your theory.
I'd recommend a complete rethink
One correction first, the 1.7 Megatons would have been a much larger explosion than the Hiroshima and Nagasaki explosions which were estimated at 13 and 21 Kilotons.
Thanks to Byrds for hunting down that exact translation - it makes a bit more sense now.
Scott, so the 'advanced' civilization didn't have technology but they had knowledge. I find it hard to conceive of how a civilization would ascertain cosmic cycles (and I agree with Byrd that there were none) without a technological advanced astronomy and mathematical ability. Unless you have a mathematically model of the solar system and a firm idea of physics and natural laws the events that happened way back then would best be described as "the anger of the gods".
Yes Scott I realize you have spent a lot of time on this but Byrd and I, both with only a limited knowledge of Egypt are able to punch huge holes in it - which also happened when you brought it out to the attention of the real Egyptologists at Hall of Ma'at. As hard as it may be to accept, IMHO you are 'guilty' of cherry picking and ignoring contrary data.
Again
1. No ancient 'advanced' civilization
2. Orion and the Pyramids don't match up
3. The events this is suspose to show didn't actually happen or were spread over a much longer period.
And as Byrd has shown you have been inaccuracy stating/misrepresenting existing data to fit your theory.
I'd recommend a complete rethink
reply to post by Byrd
SC: Yes, 3-1-4 could be a lot of things – but it could also be an expression of the first 3 digits of the (decimal) Pi contant. But this 3-1-4 arrangement is not simply a ‘beacon’ – it IMPLIES A CIRCLE! This almost acts like an instruction to us – ‘draw a circle around these structures’. And when we do this we find certain properties of the circumscribed circle that I do not believe can be the result of simple chance. Do not consider the 3-1-4 ‘beacon’ in isolation here – look at what it IMPLIES and the result of that implication i.e. the Giza Precession Wheel centered almost perfectly on the centre of Khafre and the Sphinx sitting perfectly on the outside edge of the circle. That such properties can exist with so few pyramid structures at Giza is all the more compelling.
I would also add that the earliest numerical approximation of Pi is almost certainly the value 3. In cases where little precision is required, it may be an acceptable substitute.
From here: en.wikipedia.org...
3.14, however, is a better approximation than 3. I accept that “314159” would be an even better approximation but given that Orion’s belt has only 3 stars then only 3 digits could be expressed. 3-1-4, however, is more than sufficient to get the ‘message’ across.
SC: I have checked Lehener’s The Complete Pyramids and there is no mention of any incomplete pyramid at Giza, although some exist at other sites. Certainly there is some speculation that one of the satellite pyramids at Giza was moved from another location if this is what you are perhaps referring to?
SC: Okay – let me clarify what I am postulating. I said in earlier posts there is an approximate 13,000 year cataclysmic PHASE the Earth passes through, lasting roughly about 2,500 years. This DOES NOT mean the Earth WILL be inflicted by a cataclysm every 13,000 years - only that the Earth passes through a ‘Danger Zone’ every 13,000 years whereby a cataclysm may occur. This could occur if, for example, Dr Paul LaViolette’s theory of a regular explosion of the galactic core causes a cosmic shockwave that propels asteroids from the Kuipier belt in the direction of the Earth. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they miss. But the ‘cataclysmic phase’ (i.e. the POTENTIAL for an Earth cataclysm still exists). This is just ONE possibility of many – I do not know any more than you do of the true nature of this cycle. But that a cycle of some description does exist seems to be alluded to in the Design at Giza.
More...
SC: A civilisation that understood higher math (i.e. the Pi constant expressed as a decimal fraction), astronomy (precession) and geodesy – yes. I don’t think they had iPods, or drove 4x4s or had flying machines or nuclear bombs though.
Byrd: I still find this really unconvincing. "314" could be a lot of things. 314159 could ONLY be pi.
SC: Yes, 3-1-4 could be a lot of things – but it could also be an expression of the first 3 digits of the (decimal) Pi contant. But this 3-1-4 arrangement is not simply a ‘beacon’ – it IMPLIES A CIRCLE! This almost acts like an instruction to us – ‘draw a circle around these structures’. And when we do this we find certain properties of the circumscribed circle that I do not believe can be the result of simple chance. Do not consider the 3-1-4 ‘beacon’ in isolation here – look at what it IMPLIES and the result of that implication i.e. the Giza Precession Wheel centered almost perfectly on the centre of Khafre and the Sphinx sitting perfectly on the outside edge of the circle. That such properties can exist with so few pyramid structures at Giza is all the more compelling.
I would also add that the earliest numerical approximation of Pi is almost certainly the value 3. In cases where little precision is required, it may be an acceptable substitute.
From here: en.wikipedia.org...
3.14, however, is a better approximation than 3. I accept that “314159” would be an even better approximation but given that Orion’s belt has only 3 stars then only 3 digits could be expressed. 3-1-4, however, is more than sufficient to get the ‘message’ across.
Byrd: I'm also unconvinced that "314" was meant, given the presence of at least one unfinished pyramid at the site.
SC: I have checked Lehener’s The Complete Pyramids and there is no mention of any incomplete pyramid at Giza, although some exist at other sites. Certainly there is some speculation that one of the satellite pyramids at Giza was moved from another location if this is what you are perhaps referring to?
SC: This civilisation had awareness of a cataclysmic cycle which the Earth passes through every 13,000 years or thereabouts; knowledge that is presently lost to our civilisation.
Byrd: I'm afraid that things fall apart right there. We have good data, and there is no extinction at or around 26,000 years or at or around 39,000 years.
SC: Okay – let me clarify what I am postulating. I said in earlier posts there is an approximate 13,000 year cataclysmic PHASE the Earth passes through, lasting roughly about 2,500 years. This DOES NOT mean the Earth WILL be inflicted by a cataclysm every 13,000 years - only that the Earth passes through a ‘Danger Zone’ every 13,000 years whereby a cataclysm may occur. This could occur if, for example, Dr Paul LaViolette’s theory of a regular explosion of the galactic core causes a cosmic shockwave that propels asteroids from the Kuipier belt in the direction of the Earth. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they miss. But the ‘cataclysmic phase’ (i.e. the POTENTIAL for an Earth cataclysm still exists). This is just ONE possibility of many – I do not know any more than you do of the true nature of this cycle. But that a cycle of some description does exist seems to be alluded to in the Design at Giza.
More...
reply to post by Byrd
SC: I think the point Dr Barbiero is making is that this would have primarily been a sea as opposed to a land impact hence much more diffiuclt to find. Check this out though:img68.imageshack.us...
In any case, we are discovering ancient craters (or the remains thereof) all the time and I think Hans has already corrected your impact tonnage.
SC: Yes – this is speculation. I have never denied this or claimed it as fact. Indeed, what is there in our pre-history that ISN’T speculation? We weren’t there and records are scant! Even our present translations of AE glyphs (in the historical period) is often reduced to ‘educated guesswork’.
I do not speculate without a basis upon which to do so. As explained, I believe I have detected specific dates encoded into the structures at Giza. Science is now presenting evidence that a cataclysmic event took place on the Earth at around the same time as the dates I have found. I am putting 2 and 2 together. I find this a remarkable coincidence which may actually be more than coincidence. Yes, I may well be coming up with 5 but there is just the possibility that I might also be right in my speculation i.e. that we are being purposefully pointed to these dates (c.10,500BC and c.2,500AD) for a very important reason.
More...
SC: When this civilisation was destroyed c10,500BC (possibly as a result of a meteor impacting upon the Earth causing a shft of the Earths axis),
Byrd: There's no crater of sufficient size. You may be overestimating the explosive power of meteors. One that's big enough to leave a 1 mile impact area really only has the power of a 1.7 megaton bomb.
www.alaska.net...
That's smaller than the bombs we dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima:
en.wikipedia.org...
SC: I think the point Dr Barbiero is making is that this would have primarily been a sea as opposed to a land impact hence much more diffiuclt to find. Check this out though:img68.imageshack.us...
In any case, we are discovering ancient craters (or the remains thereof) all the time and I think Hans has already corrected your impact tonnage.
SC:…the enlightened survivors (The Designers) encoded this knowledge into a design – possibly a scaled-down model crafted in granite or some other durable material of the Giza monuments. This was done because they possibly (for good reason) believed their own civilisation would very quickly descend into a stoneage existence and lose most, if not all, of the knowledge it possessed. They wished to pass down the knowledge of this ‘cycle of cataclysms’ to future civilisations as a forewarning. They crafted a very specific design that encoded this information in the hope that at some future date, a civilsiation would arise that would look at their design and see their ‘message’.
Byrd: Here you're speculating -- and then turning those speculations into fact.
SC: Yes – this is speculation. I have never denied this or claimed it as fact. Indeed, what is there in our pre-history that ISN’T speculation? We weren’t there and records are scant! Even our present translations of AE glyphs (in the historical period) is often reduced to ‘educated guesswork’.
I do not speculate without a basis upon which to do so. As explained, I believe I have detected specific dates encoded into the structures at Giza. Science is now presenting evidence that a cataclysmic event took place on the Earth at around the same time as the dates I have found. I am putting 2 and 2 together. I find this a remarkable coincidence which may actually be more than coincidence. Yes, I may well be coming up with 5 but there is just the possibility that I might also be right in my speculation i.e. that we are being purposefully pointed to these dates (c.10,500BC and c.2,500AD) for a very important reason.
More...
reply to post by Byrd
SC: But you miss the point – the design is essentially a ‘picture’ and was probably crafted as a granite model or some other durable material. Describing the design with a written narrative would be no good since they knew their civilisation was most likely heading towards a dark age where most knowledge, including writing, would be lost. Just look how long it took us to work out AE glyphs and we don’t even know if we’ve done it right! The Designers of the plan had most probably seen their world turned upside down – where land was is now sea, where sea was is now land. Why would they inscribe their knowledge onto the side of a rockface they weren’t even sure would not be swept under the sea, or eroded by the elements? Better to make the sacred design ‘mobile’ so that in times of calamity or danger, it can be transported to a safer place by the custodians.
SC: And you know this for sure? Your absolutely certain that the planetoid Sedna does not wreak havoc in our solar system after its long, eliptical orbit of around 12,000 years or thereabouts? You are absolutely certain that the 10,000 year galactic core explosions that Dr Paul LaViolette has discovered through his analysis of the ice-core record do not in fact take place? What I am saying is that there are cycles -whether its 11-year sunspot cycles or cycles still unkown to us, the ice-core record seems to support this. Whether such cycles are cataclysmic is another matter. It is entirely possible that – depending on the nature of the underlying catalyst – some cycles will be catastrophic whilst others will pass by relatively harmless. However, KNOWING when the cycles occur is STILL IMPORTANT. As I have often said, forewarned is forearmed.
More...
Byrd: The "message" makes no sense, when they could have easily engraved a huge metal plate (or sculpted rock) with a picture and writing and been very specific about it. In fact, there's a number of rock art sites (dating older than your imagined civilization) that record astronomical events, and it's pretty plain to see what they mean.
SC: But you miss the point – the design is essentially a ‘picture’ and was probably crafted as a granite model or some other durable material. Describing the design with a written narrative would be no good since they knew their civilisation was most likely heading towards a dark age where most knowledge, including writing, would be lost. Just look how long it took us to work out AE glyphs and we don’t even know if we’ve done it right! The Designers of the plan had most probably seen their world turned upside down – where land was is now sea, where sea was is now land. Why would they inscribe their knowledge onto the side of a rockface they weren’t even sure would not be swept under the sea, or eroded by the elements? Better to make the sacred design ‘mobile’ so that in times of calamity or danger, it can be transported to a safer place by the custodians.
SC: And when it was finally built it was to be built so large that it would last as a ‘message for all time, through each and every cycle of cataclysm’.
Byrd: But there aren't any cataclysmic cycles.
SC: And you know this for sure? Your absolutely certain that the planetoid Sedna does not wreak havoc in our solar system after its long, eliptical orbit of around 12,000 years or thereabouts? You are absolutely certain that the 10,000 year galactic core explosions that Dr Paul LaViolette has discovered through his analysis of the ice-core record do not in fact take place? What I am saying is that there are cycles -whether its 11-year sunspot cycles or cycles still unkown to us, the ice-core record seems to support this. Whether such cycles are cataclysmic is another matter. It is entirely possible that – depending on the nature of the underlying catalyst – some cycles will be catastrophic whilst others will pass by relatively harmless. However, KNOWING when the cycles occur is STILL IMPORTANT. As I have often said, forewarned is forearmed.
More...
reply to post by Byrd
SC: This source is Aldred, as I have already given to you. But it wasn’t only the temples since Aldred also writes:
"The design of the structures that Imhotep raised for Djoser at Saqqara seems to hark back to a very remote past, deliberately recalling the occasion of the ‘First Time’, when creation arose in the primeval marsh, to which Djoser would return on death."
- Aldred, ‘The Egyptians’, P96
SC: I have never said the codex landed at the temple of Horus. Go back to the very first page of this thread and you will see I gave the same post as you have presented above which clearly states that the codex fell from heaven at Saqqara in the days of Imhotep; yes SAQQARA where we are then told that Imhotep built a PYRAMID for Djoser. I think this is quite clear - the design must have indicated pyramids because that is what Imhotep then built at Saqqara (for Djoser) where the codex ‘fell from heaven’.
More...
Byrd:
* the ancient unnamed civilization somehow got the plan for the design into the hands of Imhotep.
SC: This is what the AEs themselves tell us.
Actually, they don't. Someone found the reference for me.
Here's what Aldred said verbatum:
The temples of Philae, now rebuilt on the adjacent island of Agilkia, are first of a series of magnificent stone buildings that arose on ancient foundations at Kom Ombos, Edfu and Esna in Ptolemaic and Roman times as far as Dendera 115 miles to the north. These vast edifices in their huge proportios, their unstinted use of sandstone and granite, their elaborate floriated capitals, their astronomical ceilings, their scrupulous detail and technical triumphs, have a solemn grandeur. They were built according to an architectural plan which was supposed to have been revealed in a codex that fell from heaven at Saqqara in the days of Imhotep. The most complete of them is the temple of the falcon god Horus at Edfu, built between 237 and 57 BC, the most perfectly preserved monument of the ancient world. It's many inscriptions have bequeathed a wealth of information about the founding of such temples, their construction and use. the daily ritual, the festivals and their dates, the duties of various priests, even the dimentions of each chamber, it's name and purpose, besides myths of very ancient origin."
Your source very plainly says the design of the temples -- and only the temples was what arrived and it didn't come to Imhotep, but to someone else. I think we can probably find an exact translation somewhere to confirm this.
SC: This source is Aldred, as I have already given to you. But it wasn’t only the temples since Aldred also writes:
"The design of the structures that Imhotep raised for Djoser at Saqqara seems to hark back to a very remote past, deliberately recalling the occasion of the ‘First Time’, when creation arose in the primeval marsh, to which Djoser would return on death."
- Aldred, ‘The Egyptians’, P96
Byrd: Furthermore, as you can see in the text you read, the "codex" didn't land at the temple of Horus. The temple of Horus is one particularly nice example of the standard plan that was passed along by cultural means and by a design.
SC: I have never said the codex landed at the temple of Horus. Go back to the very first page of this thread and you will see I gave the same post as you have presented above which clearly states that the codex fell from heaven at Saqqara in the days of Imhotep; yes SAQQARA where we are then told that Imhotep built a PYRAMID for Djoser. I think this is quite clear - the design must have indicated pyramids because that is what Imhotep then built at Saqqara (for Djoser) where the codex ‘fell from heaven’.
More...
reply to post by Byrd
SC: I don’t see why you should expect to see such. This was a sacred plan. There would only be ONE HEAVEN on Earth, one expression of the sacred plan.
SC: Even Aldred (see above) mentions the mythical ‘First Time’. This is not a hoax – it’s part of the AE creation mythology. I find it entirely consistent that the sacred plan (i.e. the Giza blueprint) is equated with the ‘First Time’ since it points to a date in remote antiquity that is required as the ‘Start Time’ of the precession wheel. Without this universal ‘Start Time’ (determined through the 212* alignment of Menkaure/Mintaka) we simply cannot determine the other dates encoded into the wheel.
Regards,
SC
SC: The blueprint or model would have to have been crafted in some form of durable material in order to last. The design would also most likely have come with an oral tradition. The custodians of the blueprint (perhaps the Shemsu-Hor or ‘Followers of Horus’) ensured its passage through time and would have transmitted any oral tradition that went along with the model e.g. its association with Sah (Orion), its association with the ‘continuation of life’. The custodians may well have become the AE priesthood whom we know exerted great influence over the Pharaohs.
Byrd: Ah, but from your own original source we DO see an example of them following a codex and a tradition that was handed down. We don't see pyramids grouped in "314" arrangements before... or after Giza.
SC: I don’t see why you should expect to see such. This was a sacred plan. There would only be ONE HEAVEN on Earth, one expression of the sacred plan.
SC: The design, model or blueprint had been with them for thousands of years. It was part and parcel of their religious and cultural life. This model represented the Zep Tepi. It came from the heavens of the ‘First Time’ and was somehow associated with the ‘continuation of life’! Of course it was important to them – even if they had long forgotten the deeper knowledge their ancient forebears had encoded into it.
Byrd: Now you go deeper into speculation about this and treat it as fact. And the only reference to "Zep Tepi" I find is not Egyptian but to that hoax, "emerald tablet of thoth."
I'm afraid that citing things from a modern hoax don't help your point.
SC: Even Aldred (see above) mentions the mythical ‘First Time’. This is not a hoax – it’s part of the AE creation mythology. I find it entirely consistent that the sacred plan (i.e. the Giza blueprint) is equated with the ‘First Time’ since it points to a date in remote antiquity that is required as the ‘Start Time’ of the precession wheel. Without this universal ‘Start Time’ (determined through the 212* alignment of Menkaure/Mintaka) we simply cannot determine the other dates encoded into the wheel.
Regards,
SC
The Mayan prophecy tells us that in 1999, our solar system began to leave the end of the fifth cycle which started in 3113 B.C. and that we find ourselves in the morning of our galactic day, exiting darkness and on the verge of being in plain day of our central galaxy in 2012. They say that at the beginning and end of these cycles, which is to say, every 5,125 years, the central sun or light of the galaxy emits a ray of light so intense and so brilliant that it illuminates the entire universe. It is from this burst of light that all of the Suns and planets sync. The Mayans compare this burst to the pulse of the universe, beating once every 5,125 years. It is these pulses that mark the end of one cycle and the beginning of the next. Each pulse lasting 20 years, a Katún.
5. The Mayans also say that by 2012
we will have gone beyond technology as we know it.
we will have gone beyond time and money.
we will have entered the fifth dimension after passing through the fourth dimension
Planet Earth and the Solar System will come into galactic synchronization with the rest of the Universe.
Our DNA will be "upgraded" (or reprogrammed) from the centre of our galaxy. (Hunab Ku)
Everybody on this planet is mutating. Some are more conscious of it than others. But everyone is doing it.
www.adishakti.org...
reply to post by Hanslune
SC: The acquisition and application of knowledge is not a linear process as uniformatists would have us believe. Consider this example:
“The Antikythera mechanism is believed to be an ancient mechanical calculator (also described as a "mechanical computer") designed to calculate astronomical positions. It was discovered in the Antikythera wreck off the Greek island of Antikythera, between Kythera and Crete, and has been dated to about 150-100 BC. It is especially notable for being a technological artifact with no known predecessor or successor; other machines using technology of such complexity would not appear until the 18th century.”
Where did the technical knowledge come to even create such a device? And where did the knowledge of the astronomical cycles the device computed come from? How long was such knowledge around? How far back does such knowledge go?
And what are we to make of the Nabta Playa Megalithic Alignments in the Nubian Desert some 500 miles south of Giza which have been identified as the world’s earliest known archaeoastronomical device, also believed to depict the Belt Stars of Orion:
“The research done by the astrophysicist Thomas G. Brophy suggests that these monoliths might tell much more. The calendar circle itself is made up of one doorway that runs north-south, a second that runs northeast-southwest marking the summer solstice, and six center stones. Brophy's theory proposes first that three of the center stones match the belt of Orion at its minimum tilt and the other three match the shoulder and head stars of Orion at their maximum tilt. This cycle repeats approximately every 25,000 years, following the precession of the equinoxes. The last minimum of Orion's belt occurred between 6400 BC and 4900 BC, matching the radio-carbon dating of campfires around the circle.”
From here:
en.wikipedia.org...
Fact is, Hans – such mathematical/astronomical knowledge has been around a lot longer than the prevailing model of our history is presently prepared to accept. But... it is slowly changing.
More...
Hans:
Scott, so the 'advanced' civilization didn't have technology but they had knowledge. I find it hard to conceive of how a civilization would ascertain cosmic cycles (and I agree with Byrd that there were none) without a technological advanced astronomy and mathematical ability. Unless you have a mathematically model of the solar system and a firm idea of physics and natural laws the events that happened way back then would best be described as "the anger of the gods".
SC: The acquisition and application of knowledge is not a linear process as uniformatists would have us believe. Consider this example:
“The Antikythera mechanism is believed to be an ancient mechanical calculator (also described as a "mechanical computer") designed to calculate astronomical positions. It was discovered in the Antikythera wreck off the Greek island of Antikythera, between Kythera and Crete, and has been dated to about 150-100 BC. It is especially notable for being a technological artifact with no known predecessor or successor; other machines using technology of such complexity would not appear until the 18th century.”
Where did the technical knowledge come to even create such a device? And where did the knowledge of the astronomical cycles the device computed come from? How long was such knowledge around? How far back does such knowledge go?
And what are we to make of the Nabta Playa Megalithic Alignments in the Nubian Desert some 500 miles south of Giza which have been identified as the world’s earliest known archaeoastronomical device, also believed to depict the Belt Stars of Orion:
“The research done by the astrophysicist Thomas G. Brophy suggests that these monoliths might tell much more. The calendar circle itself is made up of one doorway that runs north-south, a second that runs northeast-southwest marking the summer solstice, and six center stones. Brophy's theory proposes first that three of the center stones match the belt of Orion at its minimum tilt and the other three match the shoulder and head stars of Orion at their maximum tilt. This cycle repeats approximately every 25,000 years, following the precession of the equinoxes. The last minimum of Orion's belt occurred between 6400 BC and 4900 BC, matching the radio-carbon dating of campfires around the circle.”
From here:
en.wikipedia.org...
Fact is, Hans – such mathematical/astronomical knowledge has been around a lot longer than the prevailing model of our history is presently prepared to accept. But... it is slowly changing.
More...
reply to post by Hanslune
SC:Simply saying this does not make it so. If you think that simply because the 3 main Gizamids do not perfectly match the Orion Belt asterism creates a huge hole in my work then you are completely misguided. You are caught up in the same argument that has so beleaguered Robert Bauval who has spent the last 13 years trying to justify why the pyramids do not perfectly match. The point is this – even if the main Gizamids matched the Orion Belt asterism perfectly, it still cannot prove that the Orion Belt asterism was the intended match. I say this because it is entirely possible to select 3 random stars in the night sky that will also make a perfect match with the Gizamids!
Seeking perfection in the match is not the way to identify the chosen star group – it simply does not work and, to this day, it still baffles me that Robert Bauval should think that it does. ONLY by demonstrating to us the precessional motion of the ‘chosen star triad’ at max and min culmination (from a starting point of 212* azimuth) can we be absolutely certain what star triad is involved. And this is what has been done with the so-called ‘Queens Pyramids’ at Giza.
SC: Now THAT’S hilarious! Show me the killer blow to my ideas from anyone on the Hall of Maat forum.
SC: Nonsense! I can hardly cherry-pick the pyramids or the stars that match the arrangement of the 2 sets of Queens from a start-point of 212* az set by the Menkaure alignment. Quite simply there is ONLY ONE triad of stars that corresponds with this so how on Earth can this be considered cherry-picking. If it IS cherry-picking then all I can say is that there’s only one cherry to pick! Check it yourself and you’ll see this.
SC: But nevertheless we have ‘advanced knowledge’ expressed through the arrangement of the structures at Giza – knowledge that we know the AEs did not possess. So how did it get there?
SC: They do not match precisely but – as I have explained to you already – they do not have to be precisely matched. All that we need to understand is the Menkaure/Mintaka alignment which is precise. Everything else is simply the means for us to identify the correct star triad and the correct star/pyramid within the belt.
You are simply obsessing over a point that is actually quite irrelevant but which you refuse to accept as such. Why do you need the Belt Stars to match precisely with the main Gizamids? What will that tell you? Absolutely nothing! This is a complete red herring, Hans. Let it go.
More...
Hans: Byrd and I, both with only a limited knowledge of Egypt, are able to punch huge holes in it -
SC:Simply saying this does not make it so. If you think that simply because the 3 main Gizamids do not perfectly match the Orion Belt asterism creates a huge hole in my work then you are completely misguided. You are caught up in the same argument that has so beleaguered Robert Bauval who has spent the last 13 years trying to justify why the pyramids do not perfectly match. The point is this – even if the main Gizamids matched the Orion Belt asterism perfectly, it still cannot prove that the Orion Belt asterism was the intended match. I say this because it is entirely possible to select 3 random stars in the night sky that will also make a perfect match with the Gizamids!
Seeking perfection in the match is not the way to identify the chosen star group – it simply does not work and, to this day, it still baffles me that Robert Bauval should think that it does. ONLY by demonstrating to us the precessional motion of the ‘chosen star triad’ at max and min culmination (from a starting point of 212* azimuth) can we be absolutely certain what star triad is involved. And this is what has been done with the so-called ‘Queens Pyramids’ at Giza.
Hans: …which also happened when you brought it out to the attention of the real Egyptologists at Hall of Ma'at.
SC: Now THAT’S hilarious! Show me the killer blow to my ideas from anyone on the Hall of Maat forum.
Hans: As hard as it may be to accept, IMHO you are 'guilty' of cherry picking and ignoring contrary data.
SC: Nonsense! I can hardly cherry-pick the pyramids or the stars that match the arrangement of the 2 sets of Queens from a start-point of 212* az set by the Menkaure alignment. Quite simply there is ONLY ONE triad of stars that corresponds with this so how on Earth can this be considered cherry-picking. If it IS cherry-picking then all I can say is that there’s only one cherry to pick! Check it yourself and you’ll see this.
: Hans: 1. No ancient 'advanced' civilization.
SC: But nevertheless we have ‘advanced knowledge’ expressed through the arrangement of the structures at Giza – knowledge that we know the AEs did not possess. So how did it get there?
Hans: 2. Orion and the Pyramids don't match up.
SC: They do not match precisely but – as I have explained to you already – they do not have to be precisely matched. All that we need to understand is the Menkaure/Mintaka alignment which is precise. Everything else is simply the means for us to identify the correct star triad and the correct star/pyramid within the belt.
You are simply obsessing over a point that is actually quite irrelevant but which you refuse to accept as such. Why do you need the Belt Stars to match precisely with the main Gizamids? What will that tell you? Absolutely nothing! This is a complete red herring, Hans. Let it go.
More...
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