"As scientists run their biggest race, the U.S. falls hopelessly behind Europe."

The very future of sciance and its military aplication is with in reach of Europians, not Americans.

The biggest race in science has been on for decades now, but by this time next year, the United States will no longer be a contender. The most expensive, sophisticated machine on Earth will come online in Europe in 2008: a new Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at the CERN nuclear research facility on the border of Switzerland and France. Researchers will be looking for a theoretical particle called the Higgs boson, known as the “God particle” to enthusiasts because its existence would explain why particles have mass.

www.thetrumpet.com...

What a disappointment. I (among many others) was saying this for years while seeing our educational system go down the drain.

While our student are preoccupied with student loans, mounting debt and elaborate ways to cheat the system in order to get that degree by any means necessary, real science happens else where.

I remember stating it in many of abovetopsecret posts only to be ridiculed, while the facts are at hand, as a nation we are quickly loosing the ability to produce qualified professionals.

With out being involved in 21st century science, there will be no cutting edge weapon development, just as the trend of the last decade and a half has clearly shown.

After repeated failures and expenditures of enormous budget NASA was forced to simply BUY test data for the hypersonic X-43A from the Russians (Holod), and even then they couldn’t make it work right. And that’s peanuts compared to the cutting edge physics research like what’s been done at CERN.

Even if the U.S. were to beat Europe to it and discover the Higgs before the LHC becomes operational, it would be the last major discovery in America. As of next year, the U.S. will have lost its leadership role in physics, and the best and the brightest physicists will want to go to the superior facility of CERN. Consider our brains drained.
A project of this magnitude always inspires the next generation, so we can expect the next crop of great scientists to come from Europe, not the U.S. The technologies that invariably result from such significant discoveries will emanate from Europe. Think of the impact the space program had in the United States, with an entire generation of young people wanting to become astronauts, and spin-off technologies affecting everything from oil-spill cleanup to golf ball design. Cordless power tools were developed for the Apollo program; smoke detectors and water filtration units in your home use NASA technology; much of our media relies on satellite systems NASA helped develop; many medical advancements—including both CAT scans and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI)—are a result of the space program. The potential of the European research program is just as high.

Sad but true, as a nation we got fat, stupid, lazy, spoiled and indiffirent, all while the rest of the world does not just stand by to watch us get entertained by silly TV shows.

And the trend of cutting-edge science moving from the U.S. to Europe won’t stop with a particle accelerator; there are already plans to build a $13 billion experimental fusion reactor in France. Also, while the U.S. is participating in the new $1.4 billion Herschel Space Observatory, the largest infrared space-based telescope of its kind, it too is a European project—the U.S. is not taking the lead as it once would have. This ongoing loss of leadership in the most important fields of science is just one more symptom of a U.S. superpower at the end of its own life cycle. Europe is ready to fill the void.

Reality is now, and we’re not in it, we’re busy getting intrertained

I'm glad Europe is starting to take the lead in this but if I were you I'd start by electing a different president instead of the warmonger you currently have.

my 2c

[edit on 15-9-2007 by koenw]

Originally posted by iskander
What a disappointment. I (among many others) was saying this for years while seeing our educational system go down the drain.

I remember stating it in many of abovetopsecret posts only to be ridiculed, while the facts are at hand, as a nation we are quickly loosing the ability to produce qualified professionals.

Its intentional. Your government are very aware of it, and its in fact one of their goals to dumb down people, because they dont want you to be able of critical thought.

Sorry, but if you want it to get better, you need a president that invests in your country instead of the military. I also read a article yesterday about 23.000 bridges or so across america being really dangerous, because your government havent bothered to maintain them despite engineers asking for it for many years.

Ron Paul 2008, thats what you need.

Originally posted by iskander

And the trend of cutting-edge science moving from the U.S. to Europe won’t stop with a particle accelerator; there are already plans to build a $13 billion experimental fusion reactor in France. Also, while the U.S. is participating in the new $1.4 billion Herschel Space Observatory, the largest infrared space-based telescope of its kind, it too is a European project—the U.S. is not taking the lead as it once would have. This ongoing loss of leadership in the most important fields of science is just one more symptom of a U.S. superpower at the end of its own life cycle. Europe is ready to fill the void.

You know, it still amazes me that nobody really mentions fusion technology when people talk about environmentally friendly power. Ask any hippy and its all solar and wind power and yet I believe Fusion technology is probably the most feasable energy source for the future.
Could it be that its related to nuclear power and that scares the hippys?
Thats my theory anyway, I just find it frustrating that technology like this doesnt seem to share the spotlight as much cause of them god damn hippy's.

reply to post by Tonka


Tonka, the hippies have no power any more, at all, anywhere. It is our govt. and the apathy of the bourgeois class. Our Pres. Bush despises science.
Besides that, fusion is in it's infancy and is still experimental, we don't even know that it will work.

This is what happens when the govt puts all its money into building bigger and better weaponry, we fall behind in other respects.


[edit on 15/9/07 by forestlady]

reply to post by koenw


So funny! Everything problem that the US is having is Bush's fault
It doesnt matter if he has absolutely nothing to do with whatever or wherever the problem is, it is still his fault..
Give me a break

As far as the topic goes. You know it isnt absolutely necessary for the US to be the leader in every single category.
I dont believe that this signals the downfall of American
civilization.

Originally posted by forestlady
reply to post by Tonka

 

fusion is in it's infancy and is still experimental, we don't even know that it will work.

[edit on 15/9/07 by forestlady]

Well its been working for the past half a century or so.. does TOKAMAK ring any bells?

Originally posted by forestlady
reply to post by Tonka

 

Tonka, the hippies have no power any more, at all, anywhere. It is our govt. and the apathy of the bourgeois class. Our Pres. Bush despises science.
Besides that, fusion is in it's infancy and is still experimental, we don't even know that it will work.

Its not a matter of if just when, the theory behind it is well and truely proven, read these there rather interesting
JET Fusion Reactor
ITER second phase fusion reactor
Demo: Third phase, first commercial fusion plant

Also it concerns me that your avatar is bright pink. This leads me to the conclusion that you yourself are a Hippy and deliberately trying to spread disinformation about fusion power. God Damn Hippy's!!!

Right and while everyone bickers about how bush screwed us out of fusion No one even bothers to talk about the bush admin slashing geothermal research to the bone!!

Which UNLIKE fusion could be helping us next year if we started putting serious effort into it right now. And UNLIKE fusion or solar or otherwise Geothermal can improve the efficiency/ generating capacity of our current infrastructure with geotap aided retrofits. Which if we are going to switch to even light plug in hybrid use we NEED right NOW not 10 YEARS from now.

But please feel free to keep bickering about why high end particle physics leaving the US is the end of the world... Especially considering NO GOVERNMENT ON EARTH will give each small town a fusion plant EVER!! But geothermal which works Just about EVERYWHERE humans live on the planet and can be implemented at least partially without any further research and could become a major major contributor of not only energy but clean water and, IF integrated into factory settings requiring heat or heat byproducts, could substantially decrease said electrical power demand in the first place!!

Oh and all of that is beside the point that geothermal power would be a way for people to take back the income the energy CARTELS have sucked out of the populace for the last couple of centuries.

But please keep crying about a supercollider that WON'T do A DAMN thing for most people alive today except suck unending amounts of money out of some other sucker taxbase for awhile. Meanwhile we can just take up crying to the media about how the other countries won't share their research and academic institutions and we can go to school in your countries for awhile .... HAHAHA think about that for a second a bunch of SNOTTY College Age CoEd's infesting Europe en perpetuity!! LOLOLOL we WIN

I'm happy in US. Who cares about Europe, they are increasingly irrelevant and their cowardice will one day shame their reputation as nations of appeasers.

Plus, Apple is innovating enough as far as I'm concern.

Plus plus, we have Area 51.

Could it be that its related to nuclear power and that scares the hippys?

It probably has to do with the fact that it would be rather difficult to make a weapon of mass destruction out of a wind mill and solar panels.

Thats my theory anyway, I just find it frustrating that technology like this doesnt seem to share the spotlight as much cause of them god damn hippy's.

Yeah well, those “god dammed hippies” proved a 100% “of the grid” house concept all by them selves simply by actually building them, which by default makes them the enemy of the “Energy Empire”.

So funny! Everything problem that the US is having is Bush's fault
It doesnt matter if he has absolutely nothing to do with whatever or wherever the problem is, it is still his fault..
Give me a break

Humm, I’m pretty sure that his signatures on the bills that repeatedly cut funds for education kind of makes it his fault.

Look it up.

As far as the topic goes. You know it isnt absolutely necessary for the US to be the leader in every single category.

I dont believe that this signals the downfall of American
civilization.

Let me put in perspective for you.

Before WWII Japanese scientists were tasked with developing energy weapons, and instead of concentrating their resources on the atomic bomb as some sugdested, they chose to concentrate of microwave “death ray”.

Do you remember what happened to Japan in the end?

Just to remind you, Germany and Britain also had their own nuclear projects.

Nuke theory was conceived in the beginning of the 20th century, and right now we’re exactly in the same cycle of the 21st century, but this this time around WE are the ones dumping resources into useless wars, while Europeans invest into science of the future.

Originally posted by koenw
I'm glad Europe is starting to take the lead in this but if I were you I'd start by electing a different president instead of the warmonger you currently have.

Many of us think that we did.

I am sure they have many countries working together on this project, they have 7,000 scientists and 700 are from the US.

When in operation, about seven thousand scientists from eighty countries will have access to the LHC, the largest national contingent of seven hundred being from the United States. Physicists hope to use the collider to enhance their ability to answer the following questions:
WIKI

It is an international project, not a European one.

U.S. to contribute $531 million to CERN's Large Hadron Collider Project

U.S. and European officials today signed an agreement for U.S. participation in the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), a particle accelerator under construction near Geneva, Switzerland. When completed in 2005, the 27 km circumference accelerator will be the most powerful in the world.
Source

Good post equinox, you beat me to it. What is it with people, they read one article do no more research and thik they know what's going on.

America is NOT losing the arms race...no other country could half-way afford to spend what we do per soldier.

Furthermore, there are two major flaws w/OP's analysis in re the LHC:

1. The United States may be the biggest single funder of the LHC
2. It is unclear whether or not the LHC will ever have any military applications.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
America is NOT losing the arms race...no other country could half-way afford to spend what we do per soldier.

Furthermore, there are two major flaws w/OP's analysis in re the LHC:

1. The United States may be the biggest single funder of the LHC
2. It is unclear whether or not the LHC will ever have any military applications.

i. This has .. nothing to do with the arms race. It is only vaguely applied here.
Furthermore, any belief that the entire EU will be able to keep a coherent military-applicable science to itself is fool-hardy at best.

ii. No. No country good, but.. that's besides the point, and sounds like blustering..

iii. Remaining points work. No problem with 'em.

Originally posted by gone_wrong

Originally posted by forestlady
reply to post by Tonka

 

fusion is in it's infancy and is still experimental, we don't even know that it will work.

[edit on 15/9/07 by forestlady]

Well its been working for the past half a century or so.. does TOKAMAK ring any bells?

Just to clarify: Sorry, I meant fusion as a clean energy source. AFAIK, it hasn't been done yet, yeah?

Originally posted by Tonka
Its not a matter of if just when, the theory behind it is well and truely proven, read these there rather interesting
JET Fusion Reactor
ITER second phase fusion reactor
Demo: Third phase, first commercial fusion plant

Also it concerns me that your avatar is bright pink. This leads me to the conclusion that you yourself are a Hippy and deliberately trying to spread disinformation about fusion power. God Damn Hippy's!!!

Hey, for all you know I'm a very flambuoyant gay man

Thanks for the links, I will check them out. But this doesn't mean they have actually utilized fusion as an energy source yet, as I understand it.

America is NOT losing the arms race...no other country could half-way afford to spend what we do per soldier.

That is absolutely true. No other people in the world are DUMB enough to spend $24 for EVERY plastic lunch plate, and somehow see it any other way but SHEER FLEECING.

Our soldier is truly the MOST expensive soldier in the world, simply because we're BEING ROBBED BLIND, like SHEEP GET SHEERED. Halliburton anybody?

Furthermore, there are two major flaws w/OP's analysis in re the LHC:

1. The United States may be the biggest single funder of the LHC

“May be”? Such funding is only a way to BUY a place at the table. That way we get to have 700 of our people on the program. 700 out of 7000? Do the math.

2. It is unclear whether or not the LHC will ever have any military applications.

Are you aware of what “God particle” actually is?


[edit on 16-9-2007 by iskander]

Originally posted by iskander
May be”? Such funding is only a way to BUY a place at the table. That way we get to have 700 of our people on the program. 700 out of 7000? Do the math.

Well gee then I guess everyone else has smaller seats. Your argument is illogical. So why should the US spend even more money building one themselves when they can get the same benfit out of putting in a fraction of the money. And you talk about waste, pfft.

2. It is unclear whether or not the LHC will ever have any military applications.

Are you aware of what “God particle” actually is?


[edit on 16-9-2007 by iskander]

Why don't you explain it Eisntein and its military aplication. I'd really like to hear this.





[edit on 16-9-2007 by mad scientist]