Barksdale Missile Number Six: The Stolen Nuclear Weapon

Sorry all, for this aside...



Today's guardian
www.guardian.co.uk...

There has been a lot of deserved poop tossed at posters to this site regarding false doomsday prognostications . Obviously SNIP flows down hill.

mod edit to use "news" tags
Quote Reference.

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 16-9-2007 by sanctum]

Hello,
This was posted in todays shreveport news

www.shreveporttimes.com.../20070915/NEWS01/709150343/1060/NEWS01


nothing most here don't already know, but...

"The incident occurred after a munitions crew at Minot Air Force Base in North Dakota left nuclear warheads on six Advanced Cruise Missiles on a 2nd Bomb Wing bomber that returned to Barksdale Air Force Base."

Left nuclear warheads on?
Left them on?
I thought the "mistake" was they inadvertently loaded them on.

I am no expert except I believe there is a difference between loading on and being left on. Anybody care to comment?

f3

Hello,

FYI
about the warhead:

nuclearweaponarchive.org...

f3

F3

Nice!

I especially like the pict of the ‘4 Chets’ inserting the ka-Boom into the missile. Noting the mustaches id say that today’s USAF is capable of ON-BASE warhead separation, storage, and voilà decom transport!! (i.e., warhead only)

Making this entire story of in the missile decommission - WHOOPS we left them on the wing on an airplane - a complete fabrication. .
scrap

[edit on 15-9-2007 by scrapple]

Originally posted by azchuck
So Google for the story of the suicide of B-52 Captain John Frueh on the west coast sometime around August 30, the day of this flight. John flew from Florida to Portland for a vacation and a friend's wedding, drove to a secluded spot in a forest and shot himself to death.

I think it is about time you start posting links to back up your statements. That in case you are not aware is expected of members on ATS. I could be wrong but my guess is you are taking information from other sites and posting it as truth without checking for their mistakes :shk:

Example nowhere other then a few conspiracy sites does one find his name use in conjunction with being a b52 pilot or even a member of a crew. All most articles state is he was stationed in Florida.

here is one story that clearly shows your theory of suicide is all wet




Note no foul play suspected

Now onto the airman in Virginia.



Again it is refuting what you are claiming in another case no where does it say he committed suicide as you claim


Moving on to some of the others, which are very easy to explain had you looked them up.




This was the reason which is contrary to your insistence it was suspicious in nature :shk:


Again according to a story the two had been working on a car down on South hill and they then took it out for a spin doing 70 in a 25 mph zone and crashed into a tree on a curve What I ask you is suspicious about that?

As for the other two crashes in or near Minot both were with their wives in the car and the one near Stanley they were returning from CA according to one story and had a head on crash.

One other story that happened early in the year near Berthold indicated those were returning from a day at the casino in New Town.


You are making it sound like Minot AFB is some dinky little base also which is not the case, it has roughly 7500 active military. Look at it like a small town and then put it into perspective before you jump to conclusions. How many people do you think die yearly in towns those sizes? You can get a general idea by looking at the death notices in Minot listed in the Minot daily news then divide Minot's figure's by five since the base is roughly one fifth the size of Minot.


For the record I was Stationed at Minot back in the early 60's and married my wife of 43 years on South hill at our Lady of Grace Church and I also have in laws and friends living in/around Minot and some former military members even worked on the base but as civilians they I assume are now retired not sure though have not been up there in the past 7 years.

reply to post by shots


Per your suggestion, I cite sources for information as to the death of Todd Blue.

Including a news report that a Minot Airman died while on leave published by Air Force Times datelined September 13 at 4:49 PM Eastern:

www.airforcetimes.com...

A similar report from local station WDBJ Channel 7. This story was taken from an Associated Press report dated September 12 at 3:15 PM Eastern:

www.wdbj7.com...

Another story with similar information published by the Minot Air Force Base on September 12:

www.minot.af.mil...

Another story by kxmc.com, citing information obtained
from their KXMC-TV station in Minot:

www.kxmc.com...

Another story written from the Associated Press dispatch published by examiner.com:

www.examiner.com...

A report dated September 12 from KFYR-TV, an NBC affiliate in Minot:

www.kfyrtv.com...

Yet another similar report, by The Minot Daily, citing Associated Press as a source:

www.minotdailynews.com...

WVIR-TV also reported, again relying on an Associated Press feed:

www.wvirtv.com...

The death was reported on the KXMB web site based on an Associated Press release issued on September 12 at 2:19:

www.kxmb.com...

LiveLeak.com reported similarly, based on a later feed on September 12 at 4:04 PM Eastern from the Associated Press. Many other outlets also used the 4:04 version of the story. For sake of brevity, I haven't listed them all.

Please note all of these stories derive from Associated Press feeds dated September 12, issued at 2:19, 3:15 and 4:04 PM Eastern. Air
Force Times picked up the story from somewhere and issued a press release over 24 hours later.

This listing provides an excellent example of how the American news system works. Multiple radio stations, television stations and newspapers report the news based on feeds they get from a national news service. In return, companies who print news from AP feeds also provide local stories to Associated Press for distribution.

reply to post by shots


I learned a little about the news publishing business through Bert SerVass, who purchased The Saturday Evening Post and Reader's Digest through his Curtis Publishing and considered purchasing UPI, or United Press International, at the time a financially troubled competitor of AP. Some mature or elderly members of ATS may be aware of some of Mr. SerVass' varied activities during and long after World War II.

When I say I learned a little, I mean I learned enough to not trust the media. As I learned via Mr. SerVass, the major news outlets, now primarily AP, sometimes "manipulate" the news, to make it "all the news that's fit to print".

Bluntly, I learned to take news from national feeds such as AP with a grain of salt. Verification is prudent. In addition, multiple news outlets that publish or issue stories based on AP feed can safely be overlooked as being merely repetitive. They pass along AP's report, without investigation.

I've found that, in many cases, initial reports from local outlets are the most reliable. And sometimes more complete as well.

So. I tend to look for early reports from local sources.

As to Mr. Todd, I pursued local sources. Including the local newspaper in Wytheville, Todd's home town:

www.topix.net...

My apologies for not linking this source as to cause of Mr. Blue's death. Although I consider Sarah's post to be reliable, I saw no reason to broadcast her statement unnecessarily.

You will no doubt note I have two posts in the thread. Yes I have received feedback indicating others share my concerns about this death. Including one from the Netherlands, which I thought both odd and questionable.

As to John Frueh: I won't post multiple links to news stories, almost all of which relied on feed from the Associated Press. Instead, I will link the one item I mentioned that was NOT widely published, by AP or locals: His rank and assignment. I see no need to comment as to how I chased this story long enough to stumble across this particular link, or where I found it.

www2.hurlburt.af.mil...

I do appreciate your comments and I see how you could be concerned. My problem is that a single sentence I write could well have been derived from a half-dozen or even a dozen sources. In accordance with a personal belief that NO single source is reliable. I do in fact generally seek six, although of course this number cannot often be located. On the other hand, the first six I find at times cause me to seek additional sources.

This type of thing happened often while I was writing my book. I began to keep track and found that about 100 pages of raw material resulted in one to ten pages of notes and one or two paragraphs in the story.

One example: I wrote about four pages or so on the Church Committee hearings in 1975 or so as to illegal CIA and FBI activities. Beyond a wealth of material from other sources, I read all of the official report and all of the appendices. Cut and pasted to my computer in an easy-for-me to read format, that alone was roughly 3,000 pages.

Hope all this helps to ally your fears.

azchuck

reply to post by shots

I could be wrong but my guess is you are taking information from other sites and posting it as truth without checking for their mistakes

Your guess is most definitely wrong. See my previous two posts.

You link a story that you conclude "clearly shows your theory of suicide is all wet".

You reach this conclusion based on a statement in the the story you cited: "Cox said foul play is not suspected."

In the world of law enforcement, the term "foul play" is normally used to connote a crime committed by a second party. Suicide, no matter how violent, is not considered a crime for purposes of using the term "foul play". Along a similar vein, a report of a death without any preliminary indication of possible cause is also sometimes a hint of suicide.

Later you mention:

"The statement did not say how he died but said the incident is under investigation."

Another code phrase. An incident that is under investigation with no mention of a crime or suspects is sometimes suicide. The word is not used in deference to the family.

You then say:

"Again it is refuting what you are claiming in another case no where does it say he committed suicide as you claim."

The police statement does NOT refute my statement. The fact that the police statement did not state suicide does not mean suicide did not occur. You are trying to prove a negative not with evidence but rather with a lack of evidence. Another dog that won't hunt.

Nowhere have I "claimed" suicide. Please read my post that your harping about:

there have reportedly been six deaths of healthy, young Airmen at Minot since October of last year.

Three recently.

I find this string of deaths troubling.

I did not provide any details as to the deaths of Kissle and Barrs because I have not yet researched them.

Further, I have posted nothing that indicates or implies Minot might be a "dinky little place".

I do believe these Airmen, who died while in service to their country, at the very least fully deserve a full investigation of their deaths. America owes them that much. To deny them an investigation is one step away from spitting on their graves and I will fight to prevent that, any and every way I know how. Hence my post to the newspaper article in Wytheville.

I do not claim Todd Blue was murdered. I do claim he is entitled to a thorough investigation that assures his family he was not murdered. Or establishes he was.

The problem is, law enforcement is sometimes too quick to accept the appearance of the scene of the crime without an outside hint that something may "be amiss".

Shots, I believe I see our base difference here: Some people believe nothing unless it's written down in press reports and believe nothing but press reports. If the press reported it, it must be true. And if the press did not report it, it must therefore not be true.

In contrast, I automatically question each and every press report I see. Without exception. I again mention Mr. SerVass.

One result of this approach: I see a number of improbables in the statements coming out about Frueh's death from all the news stories. To my benefit: The reports were issued by different agencies at different times. As a result, they contain discrepancies and unlikely circumstances, some of which cannot be explained away by sloppy reporting. Analyze those many reports closely and you may identify troubling items also.

azchuck

Originally posted by surfinguru
Quick! We need to get Jack Bauer involved! He can trace that nuke down in no time!

In all seriousness though, great thought provoking post. Democratic state with a Democratic Governor, 100,000+ population? NY or LA? Man, these are indeed trying times. Pray to whatever god you pray to that this fails to manifest itself.

Indeed, in the crazy hard-right universe Arnold Schwarzenneger and Michael Bloomberg count as "democrat".

I have a simple question:

Why was a real warhead mated with an air-launched delivery system in the
first place?

Follow logically.

Let's go back one question.

Are these ALCM's usually stored with warhead already inserted? There are two
possible answers: "yes" and "no".

Suppose answer is "yes":

Then surely the entire ALCM itself would be stored with extraordinary security, and merely "popping the cherry" on the storage building would be an enormously big deal. And people would be following these missiles very carefully. And so, how could they be loaded so cavalierly with others thinking they had no warheads? Seems impossible.

Suppose the answer is "no":

Then who PUT the warhead IN the missile? That was an ACTIVE not a passive decision.

The flight is irrelevant, other than the obvious fact that surely the in-cockpit displays would indicate what sort of weaponry was loaded for the very obvious reason that pilots want to launch only exactly the ones they are supposed to. So (unless these displays were intentionally sabotgaed) the pilots must have known anyway.


I am not a conspiracy nut. (I don't think 9/11 was an inside job by Dick Cheney. A 757 did impact the pentagon. The fall of the twin towers and probably WTC7 are what you expect from gravity and physics.)

When I first heard this B52 story I figured it was more incompetence and overwork. Usually the simplest explanation is the mundane, non-conspiratorial, boring one.

Now that I think and read about this one story more, I am getting much more frightened.

There is no simple, logical, and nothing-to-worry-about explanation.

The simplest explanation is that somebody gave the airmen orders to do that and they had the codes so that the airmen would follow.

Dick Cheney? Was it some kind of "loyalty test"?

Or let's think further, Putin's FSB? Now that would be a "don't you dare mess with us message".

[edit on 16-9-2007 by mbkennel]

Somebody said (sorry messed up the quoting)

Originally posted by azchuck
Everyone, I just came across a disturbing explanation for Friday's suddenly ordered total stand-down by the Air Force. It's posted by Dave Lindorff at

www.thiscantbehappening.net...

and makes a lot of sense to me.

Logic dictates to me that something more than review of handling procedures for nukes is required to justify grounding every last plane in the service.

Mr. Lindorff suggests the regular command structure of the Air Force is standing down in order to conduct a search for other stolen nuclear weapons.

azchuck

Curious.

I wonder just when Mr. Lindorff made His post, considering the post I made back on page 11:


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Perrhaps warped minds DO think alike!
One point I do want to re-iterate, before we get too far into the question of...
"What Can You Do With A Stolen Nuke If You Don't Have The Codes To Make It Go BOOM?"

is this: Reverse engineering can shave HUGE amounts of time and money from virtually any kind of "development" project.

How valuable would the type of nuclear warhead mounted in one of those missles be to a government that already had the fissile materials to arm a weapon, but lacked the engineering details to make their weapon portable?

It would be valuable, but only to a significant nuclear weapons establishment with serious scientific and engineering resources. Its information coudl be used in production in 5 years in a crash program.

Does the US government (Or a faction within the government) have any allies to whom such technology might be valuable (both to the US and the "other"), but is, for some reason, proscribed; perhaps by treaty or geopolitics?

No. I think you're intimating Israel but they already have sufficiently well engineered weapons to put onto ballistic missiles (where weight requirements are more stringent than air-launched missiles).

The other countries who would want details of an advanced weapons design would be Pakistan, India and North Korea, all of whom have fission weapons but probably do not have advanced, full radiation implosion multi-stage thermonuclear weapons, and relatively small ones at that.

But I doubt there would be any US desire to help them. And if there were, sending over documents and engineering explanations would be enormously more helpful than one warhead, without a manual.

Remember folks, it was not too long ago that diagrams, albeit deliberately flawed diagrams, for an American nuclear device were offered to the Iranian government.

There is, to this day, some debate as to just how irretrivably "flawed" those diagrams were.

Imagine what one could do with even a flawed diagram AND a "working model"!

Unfortunately it's worse. Apparently those plans were sent via a Russian weapons expert hired by the Iranians. He looked at the plans and corrected some "obvious" errors before sending it along.



[edit on 16-9-2007 by mbkennel]

[edit on 16-9-2007 by mbkennel]

Hello,
Thanks for the thumbs up scrapple. Here is my hypothesis.

The plane flew out of Barksdale with a full complement of missiles(12). Ordered and loaded per regulation. It flew to Minot Air base where 6 or 7 were unloaded.
The rest were LEFT on and the plane RETURNED to Barksdale where the goof up was uncovered.
I realize I am breaking azchucks rule on relying on one report(9/15/07 shreveport times)

To me this makes the most sense, although we are then left with a authorization to load up nukes and ship them to Minot which we know is a jump off point for # going to the ME. Now, if no nukes are stored at Barksdale, I would suggest they were loaded from some place other than Minot. Plane Flew out of Barksdale, picked up hot package, flew to Minot, unload partial hot package, return to Barksdale.

Please write your congressperson and demand they "stand down". No nukes to be used/ No war on Iran. Demand we respect sovereign nations as US demands that same respect.



www.senate.gov...

www.house.gov...

f3

Originally posted by azchuck
This listing provides an excellent example of how the American news system works.

Well now that we know the american news system works, how about showing the article from a news source stating he committed suicide?

Not once did I ever question that the individual died. What I question was your assertion that he committed suicide and not one of all those links mentioned anything other then his death was Under Investigation yet you claimed he committed suicide back a few posts.

While you are at it it may help if you can prove that the individual was assigned to any of the bomber units. From his job as described in most if not all of the articles it indicates he was part of a Air Police rapid response team and from my experience on Minot back in the 60's that indicates he was assigned to missle silo defense which has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

outstanding post. I actually came across it on topix.net, reading through the comments. I came across a link to a blog, and was amazed to see it brought me right back to ATS..

This is a very strange story, filled with yet another sequence of coincidences - not just coincidences though - but the kind that seem to fuel CTs. Am I right? I mean there are plenty of coincidences that could have happened - they all had the same name, they all had the same car / been from the same town / etc. But time after time these coincidences are linked to involvement with highly controversial events.

Originally posted by azchuck
reply to post by shots

 

I learned a little about the news publishing business through Bert SerVass, who purchased

psst I am not interested in your ability to write nor the fact you were in the MSM so lets stick to the topic which is your allegation of suspecious deaths OK?

As to John Frueh: I won't post multiple links to news stories, almost all of which relied on feed from the Associated Press.

Frueh had nothing to do with Minot hence is not relevant he is nothing more then an officer in the USAF (stationed in Florida no less where there are no bomber (B52s permanetly assigned/based) Rather then allegeding he is part of this you have to directly connect him with Minot or Barksdale bomber/munitons or affiliated operations.

Now can you kindly stop with the golden tounge routine and start connecting the dots and make sure the dots lead to Minot or Barksdale.

edit to add something I forgot previously you denied that you stated Blue had committed suicide in Virginia. This should help you to recall what you really said

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Three recently. One on July 2 and one on July 17, by motorcycle accident in Tennessee while on leave and one found dead in his home near base. On September 10 the third

committed suicide in Virginia while on leave.

[edit on 9/16/2007 by shots]

Originally posted by azchuck
I learned a little about the news publishing business through Bert SerVass, who purchased The Saturday Evening Post and Reader's Digest through his Curtis Publishing and considered purchasing UPI, or United Press International, at the time a financially troubled competitor of AP. Some mature or elderly members of ATS may be aware of some of Mr. SerVass' varied activities during and long after World War II.

When I say I learned a little, I mean I learned enough to not trust the media. As I learned via Mr. SerVass, the major news outlets, now primarily AP, sometimes "manipulate" the news, to make it "all the news that's fit to print".

The Major would be far more compelled to embrace your hypothesis if certain "facts' were a little more "factual." The Major has no idea who "Bert SerVass" is, but is well acquainted with Beurt SerVaas, and his entrepreneurial exploits. If you cannot get a simple detail like the name of someone who has instrumental in forming your assessment of the media, then how can the Major, or any of those reading your "research" be convinced of it's accuracy and validity?

The Major will document your inaccuracies regarding Beurt SerVaas:

Her father, Dr. Beurt SerVaas, purchased Curtis Publishing in 1970 at the height of its financial troubles.

www.curtispublishing.com...

Verifiable sources which support a claim should always be included; though that would be a bit of a novelty in this thread.

The Major is unable to discuss any aspect of the "Barksdale Event" but suffice it to say, that it is every bit as accurate as your recollection of your mentor, Beurt SerVaas.

Dismissed.

reply to post by Major Discrepancy



Attention!
Major Sir!
May I respectfully ask what you think of my hypothesis, sir?

Feel free to question my veracity.

The plane flew out of Barksdale with a full complement of missiles(12). Ordered and loaded per regulation. It flew to Minot Air base where 6 or 7 were unloaded.
The rest were LEFT on and the plane RETURNED to Barksdale where the goof up was uncovered.
I realize I am breaking azchucks rule on relying on one report(9/15/07 shreveport times)

To me this makes the most sense, although we are then left with a authorization to load up nukes and ship them to Minot which we know is a jump off point for # going to the ME. Now, if no nukes are stored at Barksdale, I would suggest they were loaded from some place other than Minot. Plane Flew out of Barksdale, picked up hot package, flew to Minot, unload partial hot package, return to Barksdale.

Thank You sir. May I be dismissed?
f3

just thought I'd mention that Minot AFB is where they send people they don't like - problem children and so forth. It's a miserable base. They even have a little saying:

"Why not, Minot?"
"Freezin's the reas'n."

reply to post by shots

how about showing the article from a news source stating he committed suicide?

I repeat my earlier post for you, in hopes you might actually read and comprehend my message this second time around:

As to Mr. Todd, I pursued local sources. Including the local newspaper in Wytheville, Todd's home town:

I also repeat the link, since you obviously ignored the link I provided specifically pursuant to your request:

www.topix.net..

My earlier response to your post said:

Although I consider Sarah's post to be reliable

That simple sentence should have been a clue for you to look for Sarah's post on that link. You obviously refused to look.

Here is comment 7 from that link:

no it was not an accident. he was my friend and my sisters ex boyfriend. he took his life at home. his veiwing is this monday.

To repeat, I view this statement to be at least as reliable as Associated Press feeds or local papers. If you insist on believing only what you read from "official" news sources and choose to automatically disbelieve everything that does NOT appear in "official" news sources, you're on your own. I cannot help you except to suggest you attempt to understand my prior post as to why I think you are wrong.

You also said:

I think it is about time you start posting links to back up your statements.

I think it is about time you start reading and comprehending the links and posts I provide.

You say:

it may help if you can prove that the individual was assigned to any of the bomber units.

I have no interest in trying to "prove" anything to anyone who refuses to look at the evidence I provide specifically at their request.

Particularly given that any such "proof" I might present to you has contingent value, as indicated by your use of the phrase "may help".

azchuck

Originally posted by azchuck
Another code phrase. An incident that is under investigation with no mention of a crime or suspects is sometimes suicide. The word is not used in deference to the family.

I find this string of deaths troubling.
azchuck

I believe, that unless a doctor is present and signs the death certificate, cause of death is left to the medical examiner/coroner to determine.

Further, because a finding of "suicide" can often have legal/financial ramnifications for the victims survivors, such a pronouncement, even in the most obvious cases, is left to the "proper authorities", generally not the investigating police officers.

A police or sheriffs department could easily find itself the defendant in a nasty, and expensive, civil lawsuit if it were to falsely state, to the press, that a death was the result of suicide, only to have the death later attributed to other causes.

Financial loss (life insurance claims may be denied in cases of suicide) and defamation of character are but two issues that could stem from a premature assertion of suicide as cause of death.



Further, even if one or more of these Minot-related deaths could be determined to actually be suicides; doesn't anyone else find that fact disturbing in and of itself?

Are we to just accept that the handling and security of our nation's nuclear weapons is being entrusted to individuals who may be so emotionally and/or psychologically unstable/clinically depressed that they are prone to take their own lives?

Are there no psychological fitness tests administered to these critical individuals prior to their assignment to such sensitive positions? Is there no on-going evaluation/re-certification to determine their continued "fitness for duty"?


If even one airman did commit suicide, it would imply a major problem with the selection and/or re-certification process used to vett the personnel responsible for our nuclear weapons.


However.


If these were NOT suicides....


I have to change my underwear now.