European anti-Semitism

TC where do I find some true info on that ? Please help me get it. And if I understand you well, the native (Indians) Americans can take their country back which is also stolen from them ? Please read the history again. Both America and middle east.

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix

1) Yes, I can't speak for the whole Europe. But precisely, I understand what's going on and what some peoples want to do ! A NEW SHOA !

Oh yes of course you can. Come on, please come up with a better reply than that. You want me to take you serious this way ?

2) Hatefull ? I'm not hatefull ! I'm just worry, it's a little bit different. I know the past and I understand what's going on. I'll not look my civilisation and his moral values/way of life vanishing without doing anything.

Oh of course. You know the past, which version of it ?
And you want your "enemies" bombed, don't you think they feel the same as you do ? Please think logical.

3) I don't have to prove you anything. I know this trick. " Prove me that I'm wrong and that you right ".
I just have to look what's going on.I can feel it. Somepeoples want to destroy our world. I don't think that I have to try to explain something. I think that I have to fight !

The question is who wants to distroy the world ? I thought you knew what was going on. Reading this I'm sure you don't have any clue on what's going on. You only think you know.

4) Could you tell me who start to ignore UN resolutions ?
Arabs nations when they refused to accpet the UN resolution who was declaring the Israel State.

It's not about who started, it's about why they ignored it. But maybe you can't look that far.
Please read this page and don't forget to look at the maps.
www.un.org...

5) You can do this comparison ! It's different. Anyway, my ancestors had to fight against the French, the Dutch, the Spanish and the Germans !

Sure it's different, but the same outcome, you fought for freedom, so will every ohter nation ? See what I mean ?

6) Of course there is 2 sides. Mine and the other one. And I think that I have right.

But you know, you can't be a good president 4 everybody.You'll have allways some peoples who don't agree with what you do and say.

You think you're right, please try to be sure you're right, that makes a big difference

7) Yes, I have many friends all around the world. South-Korea, Hong-Kong, Philipines, Spain, USA, Netherlands, Germany and Australia. Sorry for those that I forget.

Are you sure about this ? But what's the point ? you maybe didn't understand my point. Read again.

And why are talking about my ancestor ? What's your point ?

Was not meant for you.. read it again.

8) Why do you think that I don't feel great ?

Cuz I have sharp opinions on manny matters ?

I never said you don't feel great. You asume too much. Try to understand what I mean.

9) Like me. I'm Belgian and we don't speak/write english in Belgium.

I knew that.

10) Of course, I'm agree with TC.

Of course you do. As long as he's saying the same as you think

But let me try to explain myself a bit better. The way you act is the same as the other side. You see that's my point. You hate them for the same reason they hate you. And like I said once before, war isn't gonna end that. Talk and understand eachother can bring peace.

It's respect and understanding that can bring peace. But Humans don't know what that is because some people doesn't want peace, so you get bad education in order to make it easier to make war. We don't want war, but we will fight to save ourself, and to be free. That counts for you, me, and every other individual out there. It's a human nature.

Stupidity is also a human nature.

Originally posted by TigeriS
TC where do I find some true info on that ? Please help me get it. And if I understand you well, the native (Indians) Americans can take their country back which is also stolen from them ? Please read the history again. Both America and middle east.

Yeah, TC, let the native Americans take their country back which was stolen from them.

Oh and this is for Iluv2act, please keep your patriotic bull out of the discussion, I mean you are full of sh*t. Not very realistic and you are a close to be ara cist, and very narrowminded. either you are very young with no life experience or you work for the US government.

For someone who's so accepting and sees every side of every issue, you're sure being closed-minded and mean-spirited. Your personal attack on me is immature and unwarranted. Then again, such is the way of your kind. If you can't find a reasonable argument, you immediately attack the person who makes the argument. Am I patriotic? Absolutely! I think anyone who cannot be loyal to their country is a fool. To say that I side with America is not wrong nor evil, just as it is neither wrong nor evil for an Iraqui to support Iraq. I just think that my cause is right. Therefore, with all respect, my country should kick the crap out of theirs, but that's another matter entirely. Now on to the argument at hand...

The Israelis did not initially force the Palestinians into camps. When the Israelis moved in, they did not force anyone to move out. Rather, Syria and Egypt spread tracts telling the Palestinians to move because the Israelis would enslave them. The majority of Palestinians left, but then were turned away by Syria, Egypt and Jordan. These three nations still won't let Palestinians into their land. Instead, the Syrians pay to educate the Palestinian children. In the books the Syrians (specifially Hezbollah) gives to the children, they teach them to kill Israelis. Yes, the wonderful, peaceful, innocent Arabs are enaged in war-mongering activities.

As for Israel ignoring U.N. resolutions, the U.N. has no right to rule a sovereign state. Iraq would be perfectly within its rights to kick out the inspectors tomorrow. That said, any nation which defies international resolutions must accept the consequences. Thus, Germany has every right to stop trading with Israel.

I think the U.N. is wrong to try and hurt Israel, plain and simple. If you have another opinion, perhaps you could express it nicely and without flaming. If you did that, people might think you were more intelligent.

TC,Do you have different maps where you come from?





If this is not proof enough for you that Israel is occupying Palestinian land with a view to holding it permanently then can you please explain what ever twisted view of history that you adher to.

While the brainless "sound-bite" phrase: "Anti-Semitic" is persistently bandied about, the "debate" (chuckle) will not rise. Why ask for maps? Ask for dates, references, sources: one asks in vain.
There are but three operative categories (though these may overlap):-

anti-Jew (purely religion)
anti-Zionist ( somewhat historical and theological)
anti-Israeli (entirely political)

that these are seldom in the frame, or differentiated if they are, speaks volumes. That any would choose deliberately to confuse them, also speaks volumes.

Much more interesting would be a Jewish/Zionist/Israeli poster explaining why he/she thinks that so few people have managed to attract so much hatred, for so every long. ( there are twice as many Burmese - anti-Burmese movements are few, and recent -where they exist)

And while this persistent, brainless indifference to language, terminology, dates, geography, sources, continues: why not start therads along the lines of:

Why have the Finns never persecuted the Sioux: but the Americans have?
Why have the Eskimoes never persecuted Buddhists?
Why is the USA unique in having incorporated formerly Mexican territory - Europeans haven't?
Why were there no anti-Jew statutes in the USA in mediaeval times?

You're to be commended for trying to inject intelligence here: but do reflect upon the law of diminishing returns.

I'm sorry Iluv2act, I take all my words back, I didn't meant to say things like that. You are right.

TigriS, I'm sorry I haven't responded to your question earlier; for some reason I seem to have not seen it until this morning.
To answer your question, books. I'm a late comer to the computer/internet world and still prefer a book. I'll see if I can find a site that'll cover the history.

John, that map tells me...what? So that is a drawing of the "West Bank" but of what year? Who named it the "West Bank, and when? What was the area called before it was called the West Bank?

Where I come from, John, we know that map tells squat about the history behind the area, and it doesn't tell who took what from who when or how.

I've covered this history lesson in great detail before in this forum. All the questions plus more have been answered. If you can't find it, I'll do the typing again.

Although there has always been Jewish people in the Jewish homeland throughout the centuries, most of the time living under oppresive conditions, the Jewish population began to grow in what was then known as Palestine, around 1897, due to the persecution of the European Jews. Friction began to increase with the growing sentiment of Arab nationalism (from Turkish rule), and the tension grew in the next few deades, resulting in frequent riots, primarily over access to holy places. In 1929, a riot began at the Western Wall,; it spread to Hebron's Arabs, who murdered 67 Jewish men women and children, and then burned their synagogues. This prompted Britain, who had been granted mandatory jurisdiction over the area by the League of Nations in 1922 after their victory over the Turks, to create a solution. This solution, which violated the Balflour Declaration (called for the establishment of a Jewish homeland in all or any part of Palestine), was to divide he country between the Arabs and the Jews. On 14 May, 1946, the Arabs were given the eastern 4/5's of the Land (then known as Transjordan) to the Arabs and the rule of the Hashemite Bedouin tribe. This created the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. This left the new state of Israel only 23% of Palestine to "occupy, while the Arabs were given the greatest portion of the land.

It was the League of Nations' intention that the territory was for the resettlement of Arab Palestinians, not the developement of another independent Arab state, yet it was reidentified by its Arab occupiers as the nation of Palestine, right afterward. Even as late as 1968, King Hussein of Jordan was still saying "Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan." Interestingly enough, in 1974 even Arafat said "What you call Jordan is actually Palestine." Interesting difference from today, where Jordan is viewed as a distinct state just like Saudi Arabia, and Israel is seen as Palestine.

After Israel was declared a legal nation in 1948, the arab world immediately went to war against the Palestinian Jews (now the Israelis). Although unable to overrun the new nation, the Arabs grabbed as much land as they could. Jordan took the biblical territories of Judea and Sumaria, and created the modern term for that area, the "West Bank". Egypt grabbed the Gaza Strip. The Israelis later recovered the land that was theirs to begin with, but still today, the Arabs along with the mainstream media refer to it as "occupied territory".

This is as far as I'm going tonight before I unplug the computer. Let me finish with a quote from Anwar Sadat, who is seen today as a progressive peacemaker:

"The most spendid thing the prophet Mohammad did was to evict the Jews from the entire Arabian penninsula (PM Began gave Sadat the Sanai back, which was taken after Egypt attacked Israel), I pledge to you that we will celebrate on the next anniversary, God willing, and in this place, with God's help, not only the liberation of our land but also the defeat of the Israeli arroganceso that they may once again return to the condition decreed in our holy book: "Humiliation and abasement has been stamped on them", we will not renounce this."

Perhaps in the telling and retelling you have got lost somewhere TC.

The facts:

1/The League of Nations Mandate to Britain was in 1920.

2/The British illegal alteration to that Mandate was in 1923.

3/The official Partition Plan(UN resolution 181)was on the 29 Nov 1947.

I think I see now why you are confused about Israels original borders.You appear to consider the British alteration to their mandate to somehow define Israels borders.In that you are wrong or misguided.

The original borders of Israel are the ones laid out in UN resolution 181(1947)and I think that anyone can see that Israel is now occupying Palestinian land.

All dates were taken from the official Israeli gov site below you will also find maps detailing Palestine from before WW1 to the present day.

www.cfi-usa.org...

I'm not interested in a flowery history of Israel.With this subject it is best to deal only with the facts and not be thrown off by "Local colour".I can quite easily counter your interpretation of persecuted jews looking for a homeland with one of fanatical terrorist killing the British and the zionist terrorist leader going on to become Prime Minister.So lets not go there.Let's just stick to the facts.

Zionist Terrorist: now we're talking! I am suprised the Brits posting here did not interject that historical nugget earlier.
Please elaborate ( I can, but coming from the nation of the terror victims, you've got the weight) for our junior members.
The sons of Abraham/Ibrahim are engaged in sibling warfare.

What you consider Israel's borders, according to the U.N.
I disagree. Furthermore, if you are looking at a "Palestinian" state, you have it. That would be Jordan. Until it hurt the anti-Semitic cause, they freely admitted that.
The fact that the Arab desire is the destruction of Israel and the death of the Jews (except the ones who learn to live under water) is not a hidden secret. On the other hand, Israel has never made such statements.
The fact that the Arabs were willing participants in a Final Solution in the middle east, had it been possible, isn't a secret, either.
Of the tens of thousands of square miles available, it sure seems that alot of people have a problem allowing the Israelis their land. What happens if Egypt or Jordan decide to steal even more land? Will you declare that to be Arab land as well?

Originally posted by TigeriS

1) Oh yes of course you can. Come on, please come up with a better reply than that. You want me to take you serious this way ?

2) Oh of course. You know the past, which version of it ?
And you want your "enemies" bombed, don't you think they feel the same as you do ? Please think logical.

3) The question is who wants to distroy the world ? I thought you knew what was going on. Reading this I'm sure you don't have any clue on what's going on. You only think you know.

4) It's not about who started, it's about why they ignored it. But maybe you can't look that far.
Please read this page and don't forget to look at the maps.
www.un.org...

5) Sure it's different, but the same outcome, you fought for freedom, so will every ohter nation ? See what I mean ?

6) You think you're right, please try to be sure you're right, that makes a big difference

7) Are you sure about this ? But what's the point ? you maybe didn't understand my point. Read again.


8) I never said you don't feel great. You asume too much. Try to understand what I mean.


9) Of course you do. As long as he's saying the same as you think

10) But let me try to explain myself a bit better. The way you act is the same as the other side. You see that's my point. You hate them for the same reason they hate you. And like I said once before, war isn't gonna end that. Talk and understand eachother can bring peace.

It's respect and understanding that can bring peace. But Humans don't know what that is because some people doesn't want peace, so you get bad education in order to make it easier to make war. We don't want war, but we will fight to save ourself, and to be free. That counts for you, me, and every other individual out there. It's a human nature.

Stupidity is also a human nature.

1) Yes I'm serious. That's what I think. Many peoples would like to kill all the Jews and the Christians too.

2) I'm logic. You bomb me, I bomb you.Point !

3) Well, I was thinking the same for you.

4) Yeah, sure. You'll give me allways many goods reasons just to show me how I'm wrong and how you're right. We can play this little game for ever, but we'll go anywhere.

5) Of course I see what you mean. But we didn't put bombs in hospital, in town and so on. We were " just " doing a normal war. We were NOT terrorists, even when our former ennemy were doings us horrible things ( and they did many ).

6) See point 3.

7) I was speaking about what you think and don't say, not about what you wrote.

8) That's what I do. ( or try to do )

9) Like you and everybody on earth, no ?

10) ABSOLUTELY........agree with you ! But your statement : " Talk and understand eachother can bring peace " don't work with them. You can do peace ONLY when your counter-part ( ennemy ? ) want to do peace with you. When your ennemy hates you, and want just to see you die, you have no choice ! Kill him first or die !

That's the problem.They don't want to live in peace with us.They want to erase us from the earth surface ! And this is where you have a problem. You don't understand it, or, worst, you don't WANT to understand it.

Quote U-P,

2) I'm logic. You bomb me, I bomb you.Point !

See other thread on how zionist terrorist bombed and killed innocent people.(Or are you unusually going to excuse"Some kinds of Terrorism".

TC,Which map on my previous post (supplied by the Israeli Gov remember)do you consider Israels legal borders.The time of King Soloman?

Originally posted by John bull 1
Quote U-P,

2) I'm logic. You bomb me, I bomb you.Point !

See other thread on how zionist terrorist bombed and killed innocent people.(Or are you unusually going to excuse"Some kinds of Terrorism".

" Some kinds of terrorism " ? May be are you seeing terrorism acts where I don't see terrorists acts.

UP,

1) Who are they ?Please tell me, I want to learn as much as I can.

2) Again too easy to say, so they just woke up one morning and thought, hey let's bomb someone right ?

3)Oh of course, when you don't know what to say, just play the ball back. Too easy.

4) What ever you say but did you look at the link ? I guess not, because if you did and then give me that reply there is sure something wrong with you, like ignoring facts ? At least I do some research to back up my statements, I've never seen you doing that. It's all about what you think, I don't buy that.

5) Be more specific, it's too easy to write things like that. And besides war is not normal. Terrorism or war, both have the same outcome, deaths and destruction.
Both are wrong.

6) Hahaha very funny, why don't you give me some evidence proving me wrong ? Perhaps because it's all thoughts you have and no real facts ?

7) So this mean you still don't understand what I was trying to say with what I wrote, instead you think you know what I was thinking, LOL. For sure I take you serious. Come on dude, stop thinking ! Start Knowing.

8) Try harder

9) Of course, we all like to hear what we want to hear.

10) ABSOLUTELY........agree with you ! But your statement : " Talk and understand eachother can bring peace " don't work with them. You can do peace ONLY when your counter-part ( ennemy ? ) want to do peace with you. When your ennemy hates you, and want just to see you die, you have no choice ! Kill him first or die !

Well, this is getting more interesting now. So you try to say that Bush for example would like to have peace with Saddam ? Aha now I also understand why Saddam is working hard to avoid a war, he doesn't want peace. LOL.

Bush is the one that doesn't want peace. I'm sure you haven't seen the video about Bush on 9/11 and of course you never read his statement on whitehouse.gov Well I did, and I can tell you that there's something very wrong about those guys.
Then you have this website, PNAC, after reading that, I'm sure there is no place for peace, anyone standing in the way will be eliminated Many of those articles are dated 1997 and beyond.(Remember Bush said :" you are either with us, or against us") American interests are far more important. Now we see the plans being progressed. But of course it's all a hoax,

The middle east problem is very old, maybe older than you are. A peace plan could have been there long time ago, but who to blame ? The enemy of course.

UN is comming to it's end, first an UN official got shot to death, today an UN schoolbus was taken under fire. What can UN do now ? Nothing, just Nothing.

I don't believe Saddam is stupid enough to do anything against the US or Israel. If he do so, he know he'll be history. Iraq is one of the weakest countries in the world. So it's easier to invade it now. If Saddam had WMD, I don't think Bush would send so many ground troops to the region, he would bomb Iraq instead.

TigriS, the problem with Hussein is the same problem with other terrorist states or organizations, they conduct or sponsor terrorism.

Iraq is certainly much wealthier than bin Laden, and Hussein is in control of that wealth. The special weapons developed by one like Hussein aren't necessarily for use in what we think of as warfare. To him, not only would having a terrorist sneak a small nuclear device into the target of choice be cheaper than trying to build a delivery system, it would also be less traceable.

Hussein's threat is not the same as say, the Soviet Union was, but it is still a large threat. Not just for that region but also for the rest of the world.

Ok, after reading this whole thread, i see UP as an alien here in europe, he is pro-israel- anti european- pro american, and he is from europe!!!??!?!?!?!?!

Anyway his statements are completly anti muslim, he doesn�t talk good once about them, but what is worst is that he puts everybody in europe as anti-semitism, but i think what he doesn�t see is that people is just against unjustice, and on that point Israel is not well seen.
If you keep on saying that this land was from nobody but from the jews 3000 years ago, maybe Rome can proclaim the control over whole europe as it did 2000 years ago...

Or the indians in Reserves in America, maybe those will gain back the land one day....
Come on guys, this is pathetic, Up is obviously not rational on this matter, he has never been, he justs says that who supports people against zionists-Israelies, is a terrorist, or a suicide bomber, he uses the media excuses, not his own knowledge.
The map that John posted says already enough, remember they have grown 20x their size from 1948.
What a diplomatic way, Apaches, Bulldozers, Special forces, and eating acre by acre palestine.

Who says that people doesn�t deserve to live there, are saying something really ignorant, who says that palestine never existed, or that land doesn�t belong to arabs tell that to some muslim that for him the quoran defends 2 things above all,. The Kuds (In palestine) and the Meca in Arabia Saudi.
Get some books, get in contact from people of these religion and learn something more than "suicider bombers" or "fanatic crazy believers" and try to understand instead of criticise all about them and be on a side, try to know more dude...
U really sounded ignorant UP, and u normally disscuss with brain, and logica, but in this matter, i think u are more than wrong....

It seems to really bother CA that there is a human being in Europe not virulently anti-american. How cute. By the way CA, why do you always post crap like "our president is blah blah" if you don't live here?

Anyways... JB1 your map is horribly inaccurate. If you forgot (and i'm guessing you did) Israel agreed to all the UN resolutions that created it and was happy with the land they had. But then the group of Arab countries surrounding them saw it necessary to take over the sliver that Israel was given. Boo hoo for the Arabs who lost the west bank by sticking their rusty weapons where they didn't belong. THEY LOST THE DAMN WAR BUDDY. So what? So they attacked and got crushed. Want it back? Israel gave the Sinai back. To egypt. That was nice huh? Want other land back? Ask. Don't come in like you deserve something. Don't send your message with archaic nail bombs in malls. Savages don't get jack. That's it.

JB1 as a brit you're a damn joke. Home of colonialism. The sun never sits on british soil. What other pompous statements did they have? Is that ok? At least the Israelis have some claim to the land they're on.

Whichever one of you semi intelligent whiners mentioned UN resolitions you need to wake your ass up and understand that most of those resolutions were passed exclusively due to a hatred for Israel in the first place. Why should they listen to a body that hates them? If resolutions calling the formation of any other country racist were passed those countries would laugh at the UN too. But we don't see Russia is racist, or Czech is racism, or Cambodia is racism, or Libya is racism, or Iran, or Sinagpore. It doesn't matter what you say. Only the formation of Israel was called racism. Even the #ing taliban was left alone for years.

The mods and admins flamed here. If you delete what I say then this site is as oppressive as what you criticize.

You want no flaming? Set the example yourself.

Some people stand up for their views, some people will always be biased. That's life.

Lets clarify something now...

I'm not calling any of you anti-semite, anti-zionist, anti-jew or whatever the hell else. I'm calling you a dirty prick.

Warn me if you must. Hypocrisy is a real bitch folks. It would suck to see mods warning me for my passion when their insults and flames go unchecked.

Could someone close this... this is honestly going nowhere. It's been discussed before, and it's something that people have very powerful views on. Constantly throwing fuel into the fire is not helpful for a community like this.

I also didn't notice that CA's post was made many months after this thread was long forgotten. My apologies for assisting in waking it up from it's deserved obscurity. I do hope it returns there shortly.

[Edited on 8-6-2003 by Djarums]