Charles Manson not mentally ill?

Right now I'm watching a television program on MSNBC where they are showing the 1987 interview of Charles Manson in it's entirety. Aparently it was original edited and cut to the point that previously only 7 minutes of this rather long interview was actually aired on TV. The "expert" being interviewed and interpreting Manson's ranting's name is Candice Delong, after doing a lttle research on Ms. Delong, I find there are people refferring to her as the real-life Clarice Starling form the Hanibal movies. Based on her "expertise" on maniacal killers such as Manson. Candice Delong just said that her professional opinion is that Charles Manson is NOT seriously mentally ill. I must say that is really hard to swallow. I always thought he was crazy but after watching this interview from 20 years ago. I'm convinced this guy is one of the craziest individuals I've ever witnessed. Some other additional info: His next parole hearing is in 2012...uh-oh, lol.

[edit on 6-9-2007 by cynical572]

Oh and also this is totally off subject but they just interupted the program I'm watching about Manson to say the famous tenor opera star Paverati was just found dead. I believe he passed from cancer. I apologize about the fact that this is extremely off topic but I felt it was worth posting.

[edit on 6-9-2007 by cynical572]

It could be possible that Clarice Starling was base on Candice Delone, as well as many others, or then again she could well just be a totally fictional character. I dont believe that Hannibal Lecter was based in any way from Charles Mason, He was more modeled from Ed Gein, and Ted Bundy.

Charles Manson Insane?? That a matter of oppinion I believe

Manson has been proclaimed by many to be insane. The question of whether or not he is insane is a question of opinion, which cannot have a "true" right answer. However, his beliefs, which fueled his and his family's actions between 1968 and 1975 conflicted with society's morals, around which this country revolves. The severity of Manson and his family's doings are reasoned behind his beliefs toward himself, his family, nature, other people, and the law.

whitedevilrecords.com...

I do wish we could chat longer, but... I'm having an old friend for dinner. Bye.

Originally posted by cynical572
Oh and also this is totally off subject but they just interupted the program I'm watching about Manson to say the famous tenor opera star Paverati was just found dead. I believe he passed from cancer. I apologize about the fact that this is extremely off topic but I felt it was worth posting.

[edit on 6-9-2007 by cynical572]

Oh and also this is totally off subject but tomorrow the weather will be 20c Sunny, blowing south to south-eastly @ 10knots. Showers expected on Sunday

When Manson said if I started murdering people, there would be none of you left, sent chills up and down my spine. The thing is I believe him. I have a friend who is a paranoid schizophrenic and he also goes into rants like Manson does. He seems to have nothing to gain with his wild behavior no books to sell or autograph no movie deals....He has a sincere hatred for human society. He just might be the most dangerous person on Earth.

Charles Manson never actually killed anybody. He just ordered the killing (atleast from what I am to believe)


[removed quote of entire previous post]
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[edit on 6-9-2007 by sanctum]

Charles Manson may not be insane but he is by no means normal. Not only does he have a collection of personality disorders but as the previous poster states, he is a very angry man and he hates society. He cannot and should not ever be released. He would be too much of a liability and the danger would most likely be to him. It would cost a fortune to keep him safe. Not only that he has done nothing to redeem himself and he still does not understand that he was lawfully found guilty of incitement to commit murder.

To all intents and purposes he is not sane. But legally he is not insane. He knows right from wrong and that is still the only qualification required.

I do feel pity for Manson, though I do not in any way excuse his actions, it is very clear how he came to be what he is. He was pretty much unwanted as a child and most likely had Foetal Alcohol Syndrome when born. As a result of an abusive and neglectful home life he rarely attended school and got into trouble from an early age. He had been through numerous detention facilities and was repeatedly the victim of sexual and physical abuse. He was a small kid and he really suffered. No one gave a damn about him and no one ever intervened.

He did not therefore like people very much. He was totally institutionalised by the time he was released prior to the "Family" and he asked not to be released. He had been in some form of detention for most of his life.

He had learnt to survive on his charm in prison. He was highly charismatic and poor little rich girls were drawn to him. He had the time of his life. I believe Squeaky Fromme is still loyal to him, whether that has more to do with her mental dependency or his machismo is debateable. Linda Kasabian and Leslie Van Houten have to an extent come to terms with their actions.

I have read on a couple of conspiracy sites that Manson may have been working as a dealer for the CIA, particularly in the bid to get everyone to "drop out", spreading the use of recreational drugs. The CIA were of course operating in this capacity in California at this time so it is possible that Manson was known to them and may have been an informant of some kind. They may even have been supplying the '___' the family were using. All rumour and speculation I believe but possible all the same.

Whether the murders were anticipated is another matter.

Either way the very fact that Charles Manson is completely unwilling to acknowledge responsibility for his actions means he is not likely to get out soon. I do not think that this inability on his part is due to actual innocence of the conspiracy charge, but more his failure to accept that getting someone else to do something for you does not acquit you of responsibility. It just means that it is shared.

His ego is damaged, he thought that he had committed the perfect crimes, he thought that by getting his followers to commit the murders that he could not be found guilty. He truly believed that. In his mind he believes he has been fitted up.

Insane or not. CIA operative or not, you still don't want the guy walking the streets. Hopefully, the parole hearings will continue to hold that view. I would never wish death on any one, but I think that Manson should die in prison. He was a product of a brutal upbringing, I think he has suffered all his due but he has proven that he cannot be trusted in open society. I hope that he acheives some kind of peace, but I doubt that he will, I think his mind is too irreparably damaged.

I find it strange that Manson's still in jail and his sidekick "Squeakie" whats-her-name is free. She's more nuttier than him in my opinion.

His momma was a prostitute who lived in the streets- no father. He wanted to break into show bussiness and that failed and when that happened he went nuts. He's a freak, by everyday people considered sick and dangerous, however, he's been studied and found that he knows right from wrong, therefore, he's not mental.

He also at one point pleaded with parole officers (before the murders) not to be let out. They should have heeded his words.

He's a manipulator, a very sick one, IMO. What a piece of work he is!!!

Funny, I was just researching a Manson quote and came across an interesting article about the whole scenario...a little different from how I remember the helter skelter/bugliosi version:
crimemagazine.com...

The quote, as I recall, went something like this: "There's people out there in the desert that make us look like Boy Scouts."
Couldn't track it down, but it continues to creep me out as it has for many years.

If the interview you are watching is the interview that Manson did with Geraldo then I saw it when it originally aired.

The situation I remember most during the interview was how everytime Geraldo would ask him a question pertaining to he murders or how he ordered the killings he would go from bein coherent to "jesus christ" or some psychopathic lunatic that you wouldn't want to be in the room with.
I think he knows more of what he's doing than we want to believe, and I also believe that he is not insane at all, rather manipulative and extremely intelligent.

He does have a son who was interviewed years ago on Tv. By who I can't remember. But the sons name is Michael. He looks exactly like Charles Manson but with blonde hair.

He had over 500 letters that his "father" had sent him while imprisoned. None of them opened, and he never replied to single one. I don't recall who they said his mother was, but if I remember correctly Squeeky Frohm had a son with him that I believe was given up for adoption, so maybe this was infact the son of the couple. Michael stated in the interview that he in no way thought his father was insane, rather the opposite. That he was an extremely intelligent man with a way of manipulation that bordered on mind control.

Keep in mind, Charlie Manson LOVES ANIMALS. Most serial killers start with animals and move onto people. So is his crazy? Who knows, but personally I don't believe he is anymore sane or insane than the rest of us. Both terms are realitive!

Wow, hearing Ed Gein's name brought me back a few years!! He was one of the very first ' fiends ' identified and publicised widely in America. Tne issue with Manson is not insanity. He was and is a cold , calculating and manipulative man who used ' force of personality ' to influence others.

Manson was not crazy or mentaly ill; he for sure is a total sociopath and a selfish and twisted individual, but he darn well knows right from wrong and knew that his actions were terrible and evil. He did not care about anything except control, personal aggrandizement and money. Like most criminals that spend a life behind bars or free and breaking the law, he was a street survivor and a bold person who overwhelmed weak personalities and he knew how to engender loyalty.

He may be a complex man, but he is like a cobra; they will strike when they want to and they can be deadly. He must never get out of prison or I guarantee he would try and do something even more egregious to society to establish his name forever in the annals of history as Americans ' baddest ' man. That is his only possibe legacy; he wants to be at the top of the dung pile because he knows that he will never be allowed to be judged by the standards that normal peope use in determining greatness or character.

I have met people like Manson..no, not killers, but personality wise the same. They will dominate the attention of a small and selected group of people, people who are natural followers and who are non assertive types. They limit the group they hang with so any others of similar personality are not possible; only one Manson type per group. They bully and challenge and take charge; it is amazing, and disgusting, how many truly weak people are out there just looking for marching orders and someone to tell them what to do. throw in heavy drugs and a lawless lifestyle and a compliant and weak group membership and you have FOLLWERS of the man who will do almost anything to remian in that control setting.

There is a certain amount of safety, as strange as it sounds, in a group with a strong leader; the follower does not have to be responsible for anything and only has to obey to belong. The leader makes all the decisions and therefore the follwer is relieved of any decision making incentives, even those which impact their own lives. Safety in numbers; the more selective and tight the group, the more dedicated and radical the followers. They find that they identify with the leader even when he is not present, as shown by the sway that Manson held for years over many followers. The group is just there is support the leader, and they are of no real consequence to the core of the group who remian even as others come and go.

It is a really amazing study in psychology and the human mind but a disturbing and telling example of what can happen when people are led astray. Manson is a punk; he could never exist one day in prison population, and he has done all his time seperate from the rest of the men. He is not imposing to anyone except those with the need to follow at all costs to validate their lives and establish their safety zone, however shaky it really is. No, Manson is not menatlly ill, he is evil. He is not insane, he is corrupt totally as a human being. He accepts his evil and revels in it; it is his tag line, his identity, and it is all he has; a reputation as a bad guy, and among real bad guys he is just a talker, a bluffer, a weasel, a thief and coward. He gets NO respect from the crime world. he deserves none from anyone else, either.

Manson is schizophrenic. The guy doesn't belong in prison; he belongs in a mental institution somewhere.. His mind exploded a long, long time ago.

"When I was arrested, they said I was crazy, but that was when it meant something." - Charles Manson

[edit on 6-9-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Well if he's not insane, I'm thinkin' we need a new definition of the term...

I've seen wrecked cars with fewer loose screws...

CM is charismatic as hell, more than a little nuts, and a very dangerous man. There is no chance that he'll ever see the light of day.

Johnny Canuck, I remember that quote from somewhere too, I've been looking but can't find it. A little scarey, huh?

A cobra? Yeah, that's as good a discriptor as any...

A punk, but a dangerous one when he's got a clique around him. Given the times, it wouldn't take him long to get one...

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

I have read on a couple of conspiracy sites that Manson may have been working as a dealer for the CIA, particularly in the bid to get everyone to "drop out", spreading the use of recreational drugs. The CIA were of course operating in this capacity in California at this time so it is possible that Manson was known to them and may have been an informant of some kind. They may even have been supplying the '___' the family were using. All rumour and speculation I believe but possible all the same.

I hate to put you on the spot, but do you have any links or cites to any of these claims you've found convincnig? I've looked for some time for something juicy, but most of what I come across online is, predictably, full of holes. The best I've found is that Manson can be connected to the Process Church and the Process Church can be connected to the CIA, but I can't find a direct link between Manson and the CIA. Bugliosi (who prosecuted Manson) certainly thought there was a link between Manson and the Process Church, and that many of the cults running around that time were linked through the Church. Later and on the other coast, people would try to connect Berkowitz to the Process Church.

It seems like Manson had definitely borrowed some of his "theology" from the church, and members of the church did visit him in jail, but they say this was just to determine what, if any, contact he had had with church members in the years before. The church managed to successfully sue to have most references to it removed from Bugliosi's book.

Bugliosis seems to have believed Manson that worse things were lurking "in the desert", which he took to be the wasteland of cults and maniacs operating around California at around that time. He knew more about the case than anybody, but then he was also paranoid and almost as obsessive a self-promoter as Manson himself.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if there was a direct CIA/Manson connection. I don't buy that he was a mindcontrol victim because I think he had cracked long before he appeared on the CIA's radar and mindcontrol on already unstable, but developed, personalities is a lost cause. But that Manson knew CIA operatives and perhaps even dealt for them? That sounds true to form for the Company, especially the Company of the late 50s through the early 80s.

I remember when the "Manson" killings happened and I have seen the man interviewed several times and in my humble opinion he is throughly and completely and dangerously sane.

He knew what he ordered those kids to do, they were the ones who were crazy, being brainwashed by him.

The man craves attention and if we refused to give him any, no articles, no interviews, nothing, then that would drive him crazy.

As for that quote about how there are people out in the desert that make him and his little group look like boy scouts, he did say that but I forget when... and he is right. There are some sick buggers stalking the perimeters of sane society, and unfortunately you don't have to look far to find them.

reply to post by peabody

Originally posted by peabody
I hate to put you on the spot, but do you have any links or cites to any of these claims you've found convincnig? I've looked for some time for something juicy, but most of what I come across online is, predictably, full of holes.

I would suggest finding out what you can about a man named Ronald Stark and his connection to the 'Brotherhood of Eternal Love' in California as well as the 'Microdot Gang' in the UK. This man was responsible for the largest '___' production and distribution operation in California at the time of the Manson killings.

Orange Sunshine '___' was manufactured and distributed exclusively by a group known as "The Brotherhood of Eternal Love" who operated out of a beach resort near Los Angeles. The Brotherhood had among it's drug manufacturers and dealers, one Ronald Stark, who is believed to have manufactured 50 million doses of '___', and had known connections to the CIA.

Link

It is known that Manson and his followers were using 'Orange Sunshine' before it had gained a reputation on the street.

Manson was also receiving large amounts of this particular '___', seemingly for free.

RONALD STARK WAS KHOURI ALI when posing as a Palestinian radical bent on helping terrorists infiltrate embassies, Terrence W. Abbot when pushing drugs in Italy. He spoke six languages, bragged about ties with the CIA, and may have used more aliases when courting the PLO in Lebanon, conspiring with the Red Brigades, and keeping up cordial contact with friends at the American embassy in London.

Link

Of course, the true believers had no idea the CIA had used '___' as a surreptitious mind-bending agent in cold war cloak-and-dagger operations. Nor could they have known that the largest single source of black market acid during the late 1960s and early 1970s was linked to the CIA. His name was Ronald Stark, and his story is as mind-boggling as the chemical he peddled.

Link

Summer of 1969 - Orange sunshine debuts; Ronald Stark moves in on
the illicit acid trade

Link

The curse of doing research out here in Weirdoland is that the really fascinating people are nearly impossible to do research on. For instance, when you're covertly running the world's largest '___' manufacturing and smuggling operation for the CIA, you're not going to be doing interviews in Newsweek or publishing an autobiography. That's precisely the problem with Ronald Hadley Stark, who is one of the most insane characters in the history of '___' -- and that's really saying something, don't you think?

Link

The best I've found is that Manson can be connected to the Process Church and the Process Church can be connected to the CIA, but I can't find a direct link between Manson and the CIA.

Stark was a personal friend of Robert DeGrimston.

Originally posted by wigit
I find it strange that Manson's still in jail and his sidekick "Squeakie" whats-her-name is free. She's more nuttier than him in my opinion.

Squeaky Fromme is not free. She's in prison for life for attempting to assassinate Gerald Ford.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Linda Kasabian and Leslie Van Houten have to an extent come to terms with their actions.

I think you mean Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkle. Linda Kasabian was at the scene of the Tate murders, but she took no part in the mayhem. She was granted immunity from prosecution for testifying against the others.

Also, judging by her parole hearings that are available on YouTube, it seems that Susan Atkins has also come to terms with her actions.

The most in-depth Manson interview I've ever seen was the one with Charlie Rose that aired on the old CBS News Nightwatch program back in '86. I think they gave it a full hour of air time. I may still have it on videotape somewhere.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by Tuning Spork]

Originally posted by cynical572
Some other additional info: His next parole hearing is in 2012...uh-oh, lol.

[edit on 6-9-2007 by cynical572]

Every time Manson's been up for parole release, he's been denied. What makes this one any different? lol.

I just watched the 1976 film Helter Skelter, and was wondering, wow how did he get so many hot women to do anything he wanted? He didn't even need money to get any women. If he were to be released today, no doubt lots of women would flock to him again, even though he's old. People have a strange fascination with him.

American women are drawn to him, yet they are repulsed by nice guys. Go figure.

What I don't understand is, why didn't Manson just live in seclusion with all his women, and have sex orgies with them, without sending them out to commit murder? Then he could have lived a life of pleasure without going to jail. Why were all those murders necessary? Didn't he value his freedom? Didn't he regret it, since in prison he can no longer be with all those women?

Btw, the 1976 Helter Skelter film and the remake one are both on YouTube, if anyone wants to see them.