How far you are willing to go in regards to your religious beliefs?

The purpose of this post is to discuss how far are people who believe in religion/god will go to support their views/beliefs. I’m not questioning their faith. I do however question some of the theories out there about mostly Christian views about our history.

Young Earth Creationism is the first subject in this post. My brother and I visited a state park in Southern Missouri where we observed a rock structure that had many broken layers. This structure was about 15 feet thick, and it was here that he introduced to me the theory of Young Earth Creationism, and that he believed that the Earth was only 6,000 – 10,000 years old. The layers in the rock varied slightly in color from one layer to another. It was obvious to me that this structure took at least millions of years to form. I tried to explain to him to think of dust that accumulates in his room at home, if he never dusted his room how long would it take to achieve a layered rock formation of this size. This may or may not be a good example, but it works for me.

Young Earth creationism

I am making this post partly because of this thread dinosaurs never existed the op never states if this is a Christian belief. Now this seems to be related to the Young Earth Creationism theories.

dinosaurs science or science fiction

The second topic of this post is the theory that ufos visiting Earth are really demons sent here by Satan so people will question or not believe in God. IMHO if 0.01% of all planets in the universe have life and only 0.01% of those planets have intelligent life, I believe that the possibility of us being visited by aliens is good, if not expected.

ufos are demons

The next topic of this post is the theory that the United States was formed as a Christian nation. The link provided has many quotes from our founding fathers. I agree that the separation of church and state was so that no government type of religion would be formed, I however also believe that our founding fathers wanted to keep religion Out of government. These people and there ancestors suffered for centuries of control and abuse in Europe and I believe this was there attempt to not let that happen here.

-George Washington~Deist "He refused to kneel in Church and take communion" Him kneeling at Valley Forge is a fictitious rendering by the artist.
-John Adams~ Unitarian "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian Religion"
~Benjamin Franklin~Vistied the infamous Hellfire Club frequently [during his time in England] (dedicated to "black magic", and political conspiracies) "he did not believe in the immortality of the soul and believe evil to be 'permissible' because presumably if God created everything he created evil as well" A Letter to Ezra Stiles president of Yale that he "doubted the divinity of Christ, but believes in his moral teachings"
~James Madison~"What has been Christianity's fruits?-Superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
The Founding Fathers did NOT put "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, nor did they put "In God We Trust" on US currency.
Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance by an Act of Congress in 1954 during the McCarthy hysteria.
In God We Trust" was added to US currency [coins] in 1864 and became the official motto of the US only in 1956
-The motto conceived by the founding fathers was "Out of many, One"

United States of America was founded as a Christian nation

All I have posted is in regards to Christianity, because frankly I don't know what other religons teach/preach about our past. If you know something please let me know.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
I tried to explain to him to think of dust that accumulates in his room at home, if he never dusted his room how long would it take to achieve a layered rock formation of this size. This may or may not be a good example, but it works for me.

I think it is an excellent allegory!

I am making this post partly because of this thread dinosaurs never existed the op never states if this is a Christian belief.

Regardless of its origination, it seems like a rather stubborn attachment to OPINION! Especially when confronted with undeniable fossil evidence!!

Opinion = incomplete understandings

I mean, truly, if that is an extraordinary claim (dinosaurs) then we have, indeed, been given extraordinary proof (fossils and skeletons, et al)!

IMHO if 0.01% of all planets in the universe have life and only 0.01% of those planets have intelligent life, I believe that the possibility of us being visited by aliens is good, if not expected.

No doubt! Anyone who watches The History Channel or Nat'l Geographic, Discovery, etc. lately would have to agree - there are SO MANY galaxies out there! The odds are infinitesimal yet at the same time infinite; statistically pointing to the fact that we are surely NOT ALONE.

The next topic of this post is the theory that the United States was formed as a Christian nation.

Absolutely NOT. The founding fathers, as you point out, were deists, free-thinkers, and men of very high ideals. No doubt they are turning over in their graves these days!

These people and there ancestors suffered for centuries of control and abuse in Europe and I believe this was there attempt to not let that happen here.

The constitution and bill of rights make that clear, IMO.

-The motto conceived by the founding fathers was "Out of many, One"

Excellent points you make; researched and intelligent.

Another area I wanted to discuss is the Prosperity theology that is being preached in the USA. Im not sure if this is really widespread but when I first encountered it I was kinda freaked out about it. It seems to me this is a false belief and more of a attempt to fill the church pews with people wanting to be rich. Name it claim it!! I wonder what early Christians who were tossed to the lions in the Roman Empire would think of this. I wonder what the peasants of old Europe would think of this.

Prosperity theology

I'm really wanting to know what Islam teaches about our history, do they IMHO alter it as Christianity seems to do??

Christianity really seems to reinvent itself every couple of hundred years or so. For example, the pre-tribulation rapture was unheard of just a couple of hundred years ago, now you can't really discuss Christianity without also discussing this.

pretribulation rapture

Hi,

I'll light on a couple of subjects.

Concerning the age of the earth: There is a "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 in the Bible. I don't know how familiar you are with that, but it is clear in the Bible, if we interpret scripture with scripture.
I believe, based on the Bible, that humans have been on earth for about 6000 years. However I also believe that the earth is older than that. How old? I couldn't tell you nor do I trust current dating methods.

About your settling dust example. It is good. But consider this hypothetical situation:

The ratio of dust settlement is 2 cms per month.
There's dust 100cms deep covering the ground.
We conclude that dust began settling 50 months ago.
Correct?

But at least 2 major assumptions have sneaked by.

1) That the rate of settlement is uniform. That is, we assumed that 2 cms per month has always been the ratio.

2) That there is no element (such as a log) buried in the dust, which is, say, 20 cms deep, conflating the true dust depth of 80 cms up to 100 cms.

Much of modern science willfully ignores such assumptions, let alone the accuracy of the methods.

Last, I'll touch on the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.
Your statement is not entirely correct that it was unheard of up to 200 years ago. But be that as it may, It is no reason to discard its veracity.

God has always been shedding light on his scriptures. And these last days, doctrine has premium importance, whereas it did not have as much of an importance during, say, the reformation.

(I'm NOT talking about salvation doctrine, which has always been understood by New Testament believers as being through faith alone placed in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ as sufficient and full payment for the sins of any individual)

Revelation did not stop with Luther or Darby. The tribulation is approaching and the Lord God is shedding light on his scriptures, that's all.
Of course, bible-believers reject most "revelations" as nothing but apostasy where they contradict the Bible.

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21:
Concerning the age of the earth: There is a "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 in the Bible. I don't know how familiar you are with that, but it is clear in the Bible, if we interpret scripture with scripture.

I was raised to believe that a day could be as 100,000 years. [this was how my mom explain to me when the dinosaurs roamed the Earth before man] I guess that to God it vary well could be, however other days and weeks are also mentioned in the bible. If it was to be 100,000 years or any other figure why use the term day…why not say and lo God created the Earth in 100,000 years.
I do find it interesting that Christians in general don’t trust current dating methods, are there any dating methods you do trust?
As for humans being here for only 6000 years is just to short of time for us to have achieved what we have, IMHO. The Great Pyramid is said to be 4,500-10,000 years old itself, possibility older. To go from hunter/gatherers to building civilizations like those in Ancient Egypt in only 2,500 years on Earth is hard to grasp, not to mention what was built in Ancient China as well. How old do you think the Great Pyramids are and how can you explain the advanced Tech used to build them.

Last, I'll touch on the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Your statement is not entirely correct that it was unheard of up to 200 years ago. But be that as it may, It is no reason to discard its veracity.
God has always been shedding light on his scriptures. And these last days, doctrine has premium importance, whereas it did not have as much of an importance during, say, the reformation.

This is fascinating to me, but truthfully I don’t know what to say about this. It is difficult to grasp that this doctrine was always there but was not discovered until much later, that as time goes on God is shedding light on things that have always been there.
This is the only verse I can find that mentions the Tribulation specifically:

Revelation 7:15
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.

This to me goes against the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture it’s the “they who have come out of” part meaning they are apart of it and not saved from it.

the Tribulation is a relatively short period of time where believers will experience worldwide persecution and be purified and strengthened by it.

(I'm NOT talking about salvation doctrine, which has always been understood by New Testament believers as being through faith alone placed in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ as sufficient and full payment for the sins of any individual)

This part I completely understand and has been a solid believe since Christ’s death and resurrection. Yes?

Revelation did not stop with Luther or Darby. The tribulation is approaching and the Lord God is shedding light on his scriptures, that's all.

Of course, bible-believers reject most "revelations" as nothing but apostasy where they contradict the Bible.

I disagree with the most bible-believers reject, I feel the exact opposite is true.


As far as the dust stuff basically it gives me a headache, if you say Earth is millions if not billions of years old and when I look around, It is easy for me to believe this....Anything less I just can't comprehend it.

Jesus said

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

That, right there, negates the idea of God playing favorites.

It fits in with the 'prosperity' doctrine. We are not here to do good for OURSELVES but for each other.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Young Earth creationism


The second topic of this post is the theory that ufos visiting Earth are really demons sent here by Satan so people will question or not believe in God. IMHO if 0.01% of all planets in the universe have life and only 0.01% of those planets have intelligent life, I believe that the possibility of us being visited by aliens is good, if not expected.

You would be amazed at the technology our and other governments have
that would look to us like U.F.O.s Not to mention lazers and holograms a la scooby-doo. No aliens.

ufos are demons

The next topic of this post is the theory that the United States was formed as a Christian nation. The link provided has many quotes from our founding fathers. I agree that the separation of church and state was so that no government type of religion would be formed, I however also believe that our founding fathers wanted to keep religion Out of government. These people and there ancestors suffered for centuries of control and abuse in Europe and I believe this was there attempt to not let that happen here.

When the Mayflower Compact was written up by the Pilgrims, they agreed all law would rest not upon a monarchy or a dictatorship, but upon "the consent of the governed" under God. The Pilgrims were larger in number and settled along the shores of Massachusetts Bay. These reformers established the government, built the schools, administered the churches and set the moral tone. Thier influence went beyond the so-called "blue laws". V.M. Hall Christian History of the Constitution.

In the summer of 1778, while meeting with representatives Benjamin Franklin arose and addressed the troubled and disagreeing convention. The eighty-one-year-old leader and representative said "In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard and they were graciously answered.........Have we now forgotten our powerful friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need his assistance?"
The Rhode Island Charter of 1683, begins, "WE submit our persons, lives and estates unto our Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and to all those perfect and most absolute laws given us in His Holy Word."
noah Webster said, " The religion wich has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles."
John Quincy Adams said, "The first and almost the only Book deserving of universal attention is the Bible."
Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Dartmouth, etc, were formed for the furtherance of the Gospel.

I have much more, but not the time.

All I have posted is in regards to Christianity, because frankly I don't know what other religons teach/preach about our past. If you know something please let me know.

Originally posted by LDragonFire

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21:
Concerning the age of the earth: There is a "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 in the Bible. I don't know how familiar you are with that, but it is clear in the Bible, if we interpret scripture with scripture.

I was raised to believe that a day could be as 100,000 years. [this was how my mom explain to me when the dinosaurs roamed the Earth before man] I guess that to God it vary well could be, however other days and weeks are also mentioned in the bible. If it was to be 100,000 years or any other figure why use the term day…why not say and lo God created the Earth in 100,000 years.
I do find it interesting that Christians in general don’t trust current dating methods, are there any dating methods you do trust?
As for humans being here for only 6000 years is just to short of time for us to have achieved what we have, IMHO. The Great Pyramid is said to be 4,500-10,000 years old itself, possibility older. To go from hunter/gatherers to building civilizations like those in Ancient Egypt in only 2,500 years on Earth is hard to grasp, not to mention what was built in Ancient China as well. How old do you think the Great Pyramids are and how can you explain the advanced Tech used to build them.

Men were highly advanced in ancient Babylon, others.
God sent the flood to destroy them and thier highly intelligent depravity.

This is fascinating to me, but truthfully I don’t know what to say about this. It is difficult to grasp that this doctrine was always there but was not discovered until much later, that as time goes on God is shedding light on things that have always been there.
This is the only verse I can find that mentions the Tribulation specifically:

Paul,the Apostle said,that he didn't count himself as already attained, but that he pressed on towards the mark of the high calling of Jesus Christ. That "high calling" in Greek is harpazio, the same as for the "rapture"
Paul, himself was looking for the rapture or catching away by Jesus as a thief in the night.

Revelation 7:15
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.

This to me goes against the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture it’s the “they who have come out of” part meaning they are apart of it and not saved from it.

These are they who were left behind of the Laodocea church, spewed out of God's mouth into the tribulation for thier lukewarmness, being niether hot nor cold. Check Revelations 3. After the Philadelphia church is taken into heaven, after the trumpet-like voice, the Laodocean church is left.

Revelation did not stop with Luther or Darby. The tribulation is approaching and the Lord God is shedding light on his scriptures, that's all.

Of course, bible-believers reject most "revelations" as nothing but apostasy where they contradict the Bible.

As far as the dust stuff basically it gives me a headache, if you say Earth is millions if not billions of years old and when I look around, It is easy for me to believe this....Anything less I just can't comprehend it.

A world-wide flood.

[edit on 7-9-2007 by Clearskies]

Well, while I am a deist, with a "Christian" slant, I think you bring up some interesting topics.

Both assumptions that many "Christians" have about the earth and UFOs, at least from my perspective, are preposterous. Assuming that "demons" are SPIRITUAL entities, the idea of them flying around in, by all accounts, very physical objects seems rather humorous to me. Also, there is not any verifiable proof that aliens have done, or are doing anything to even suggest malicious intent.

People always say, "Well, what about abductions?" What about them? We have no real knowledge of why abductions occur. Common sense would dictate that "demons" have no reason to abduct humans and examine their anatomy. They, being the ancient spiritual creatures they are, are already all too aware of the human anatomy. These beings that are abducting people are very interested in the human anatomy and have limited knowledge of it.

As far as the "young earth" theory, to me, it's a ridiculous notion. In order for this young earth theory to be true, it would require us to have a very disingenuous God. I don't buy it. So, God is a conniver, eh? Nah, the earth and the universe has been around for a very long time.

[edit on 7-9-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Wow, that thread just came alive. Good.

I guess that to God it vary well could be, however other days and weeks are also mentioned in the bible. If it was to be 100,000 years or any other figure why use the term day…why not say and lo God created the Earth in 100,000 years.

That's not what I meant though. I do believe they were 6 days more or less equal to those we have today. I'm saying that those 6 days were an act of recreation.
Briefly:
God creates heaven and earth (original creation) in verse 1
God floods not only earth, but possibly also the universe. (we're not talking about Noah's flood here) in verse 2.

You say why did he do that before the creation of man?

Because man wasn't the first inhabitant of earth.
Lucipher and his angels were. God judged them first, in Genesis 1:2, then recreates the universe in 6 days with Adam to replace Satan as head of creation.

When aliens show up and tell you about the past glory of earth, so far, they're not lying. So far.

I'm sure you can see how that answers the presence of great civilizations, like say Atlantis, or if you prefer, the pyramids. There were great angelic civilizations on earth before Adam and Eve. And also before the flood, as was correctly pointed out.

You see here's the thing with the Bible. The book is alive and fully answers the questions of the seeker............. according to his heart's attitude.
The Holy Spirit of God does not reveal much to a man before he faces up to his own self-righteousness and trust the righteousness and sacrifice of the sinless Son of God to save him from his sins.
That's God's number one concern, he's not too bothered about answering your other questions where you don't deal with him personally first of all as to your sins.
Once you do, then he starts showing you stuff out of that book that will blow you away. The book is alive.

Both assumptions that many "Christians" have about the earth and UFOs, at least from my perspective, are preposterous. Assuming that "demons" are SPIRITUAL entities, the idea of them flying around in, by all accounts, very physical objects seems rather humorous to me. Also, there is not any verifiable proof that aliens have done, or are doing anything to even suggest malicious intent.

As a Bible-believer I very much believe there are both spiritual and physical devilish entities. Satan and his fallen angels can manifest themselves physically, and manipulate the physical world, mix DNA to create slave-races, the whole works. I never for a second doubted they were as physical as anything.

As for the malicious intent. We are agreed 100%. And they will not until after they show up as saviours and the antichrist is ushered in. Then the mask falls.
Please note how "aliens" always preach an pantheistic, monistic and evolutionary gospel. They're fixing you up to deny that Book and accept hybrid creatures as beautiful saviours.
Devilish beings with IQs of 500 can play any man like a yoyo without a knowledge of the Bible and its God, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now concerning the rapture/tribulation, I won't go into that for now.
Suffice it to say that, to the Bible-believer who obeys in "rightly DIVIDING the word of truth", there is more than one rapture in the Bible. And that's the only way you resolve all the controversy without disbelieving or altering one word in the Bible.
The church, being one body, indivisible, goes all out before the tribulation. When you get to revelation you are reading about a rapture of tribulation Jewish and Gentile saints. You see the church in its gentile conceit that Paul warned her about in Romans 11 always thinks that all things always apply to her and forgets Israel.
But that's a topic for another day. Hope I helped a bit here.

I do agree with you, I'm just trying to understand why people would believe in some of the more IMHO "out there" theories going around.

I will respond to more tomorrow, yea for work interfering with my time at ATS. I do like the direction this thread is going, I'm not trying to bash anyone, just to have a discussion about some of these beliefs.

I was replying to SpeakerofTruth when I said I agreed with what you said.

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21:
Because man wasn't the first inhabitant of earth.
Lucipher and his angels were. God judged them first, in Genesis 1:2, then recreates the universe in 6 days with Adam to replace Satan as head of creation.

Ok this is what this thread is all about. Yes God judged Lucifer and the Angels that fallowed him, But it does not state that they were sent to Earth. It states they where cast out of Heaven. According to thethird paragraph down . And this is the first I have heard of Satan being the head of creation?? Somewhere along the way you lost me, please explain.

I'm sure you can see how that answers the presence of great civilizations, like say Atlantis, or if you prefer, the pyramids. There were great angelic civilizations on earth before Adam and Eve. And also before the flood, as was correctly pointed out.

Ok we have all of this evidence of dinosaurs all over the world, yet some, most likely few Christians believe they exist. Now you are saying that the alleged lost city of Atlantis and the Great Pyramids were not only build by, but those civilizations were also inhabited by Angels. This is really hard to believe. Atlantis is a favorite subject of mine, and I have never before heard of this theory.

You see here's the thing with the Bible. The book is alive and fully answers the questions of the seeker............. according to his heart's attitude.
The Holy Spirit of God does not reveal much to a man before he faces up to his own self-righteousness and trust the righteousness and sacrifice of the sinless Son of God to save him from his sins.

I do understand where you’re coming from but truthfully it’s really hard to swallow. Is it not one of the purposes in Christianity to go for and testify? To encourage people to find the truth and purpose for ones life in the Bible? Yet it seems, to find these truths one must pray and study it for years. I’m having a hard time articulating what I want to say here, please by all means somebody add there thoughts to this.

That's God's number one concern, he's not too bothered about answering your other questions where you don't deal with him personally first of all as to your sins.
Once you do, then he starts showing you stuff out of that book that will blow you away.
The book is alive.

Now this one is easy. Its impossible for me to deal with him personally when God doesn’t deal with me personally. As for the book is alive...uh ok if you say so.

As a Bible-believer I very much believe there are both spiritual and physical devilish entities. Satan and his fallen angels can manifest themselves physically, and manipulate the physical world, mix DNA to create slave-races, the whole works. I never for a second doubted they were as physical as anything.

Interesting beliefs you have.

As for the malicious intent. We are agreed 100%. And they will not until after they show up as saviours and the antichrist is ushered in. Then the mask falls. Please note how "aliens" always preach an pantheistic, monistic and evolutionary gospel. They're fixing you up to deny that Book and accept hybrid creatures as beautiful saviours. Devilish beings with IQs of 500 can play any man like a yoyo without a knowledge of the Bible and its God, the Lord Jesus Christ.

From what I understand the Angels were not given the Gift of Genius, I may be wrong but a IQ of 500 is a bit impressive. If you could provide some links with some of your theories/beliefs I would love that. Could it be if real aliens exist and they are not demons, that it would harm your belief in the Bible and God. I'm sure if the authors of the bible had a grasps that other worlds might have intelligent life they would have included something to that effect in the Bible.

Now concerning the rapture/tribulation, I won't go into that for now.
Suffice it to say that, to the Bible-believer who obeys in "rightly DIVIDING the word of truth", there is more than one rapture in the Bible. And that's the only way you resolve all the controversy without disbelieving or altering one word in the Bible. The church, being one body, indivisible, goes all out before the tribulation. When you get to revelation you are reading about a rapture of tribulation Jewish and Gentile saints. You see the church in its gentile conceit that Paul warned her about in Romans 11 always thinks that all things always apply to her and forgets Israel.

Ok I am having a hard time believing in one rapture much less multiple ones. Also The church, being one body, indivisible was another topic I was going to being up in this thread, but I’m saving that for later.

Originally posted by Clearskies:
Men were highly advanced in ancient Babylon, others.
God sent the flood to destroy them and thier highly intelligent depravity.

First I have to ask you if you also believe humans have only been around for 6000 years. If so how do you suppose we advanced so far so fast?

Paul,the Apostle said,that he didn't count himself as already attained, but that he pressed on towards the mark of the high calling of Jesus Christ. That "high calling" in Greek is harpazio, the same as for the "rapture" Paul, himself was looking for the rapture or catching away by Jesus as a thief in the night.

To me the whole rapture thing is based on obscure passages in the bible. If you find one verse here another there then wal la you have the rapture. To me if any tribulation occurs the Christians will still be here, call it the last suffering for Christ/God. Death can also come like a thief in the night.

These are they who were left behind of the Laodocea church, spewed out of God's mouth into the tribulation for thier lukewarmness, being niether hot nor cold. Check Revelations 3. After the Philadelphia church is taken into heaven, after the trumpet-like voice, the Laodocean church is left.

Ok if this rapture occurs, won’t the world be without God during the Tribulation that fallows?? Who can they be made white with the blood of the lamb during this time?? Is all they have to do is not take the mark?

A world-wide flood.

Very Good Answer

I can post Many other things our founding fathers said, but the bottom-line is that they wanted the freedom to worship as they saw fit, be it Christianity, Satanist, Deist, Jewish, whatever. To claim we were founded on only Christian beliefs/values is not accurate. I believe it was Thomas Paine who was such a critic of Christianity and the Bible they had a hard time getting him buried when he died.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

[edit on 8-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

[edit on 8-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

First I have to ask you if you also believe humans have only been around for 6000 years. If so how do you suppose we advanced so far so fast?

The fallen angels shared thier knowledge with man.
I'm not sure about the 6000 years, though.
If you think about it, Methusaleh, lived 999 years all by himself, before the flood. Everyone lived longer before the flood. So the geneology could add a lot of time, not to mention the period
possibly before the Earth was void and without form. Void in that context could mean to have been destroyed before.

Paul,the Apostle said,that he didn't count himself as already attained, but that he pressed on towards the mark of the high calling of Jesus Christ. That "high calling" in Greek is harpazio, the same as for the "rapture" Paul, himself was looking for the rapture or catching away by Jesus as a thief in the night.

To me the whole rapture thing is based on obscure passages in the bible. If you find one verse here another there then wal la you have the rapture. To me if any tribulation occurs the Christians will still be here, call it the last suffering for Christ/God. Death can also come like a thief in the night.

It's called a mystery just like that of mystery Babylon. It's clues.

Jesus said the catching away of the saints is much like Noah and Lot. God could not rain down judgement willy-nilly on his people and the heathen at the same time.
His people have to be safe first. There are two comings of Jesus.
When he takes us up in the clouds to the marriage supper and when he comes and puts his foot on the Mount of Olives.

The antichrist will try to make people believe he is the second coming.IMO

Ok if this rapture occurs, won’t the world be without God during the Tribulation that fallows?? Who can they be made white with the blood of the lamb during this time?? Is all they have to do is not take the mark?

Exactly, there will be the angel flying in the heavens telling people to come out of Mystery Babylon, and the two witnesses.
There will be many who repent and refuse to take the mark.

I can post Many other things our founding fathers said, but the bottom-line is that they wanted the freedom to worship as they saw fit, be it Christianity, Satanist, Deist, Jewish, whatever. To claim we were founded on only Christian beliefs/values is not accurate. I believe it was Thomas Paine who was such a critic of Christianity and the Bible they had a hard time getting him buried when he died.

We were definitely started as a christian nation, of course we've had disingenuous christian leaders, who may have even been satanists.The people of this nation wanted to have a nation based on Christ and the bible.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

[edit on 8-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

[edit on 8-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

Accidently erased the whole reply so I'll go to point form summary

You have much understanding you seem to think is Biblical, but which isn't.

1) The angels are only cast out of heaven into earth in Revelation 12, which is future. They seem to have had earth as a base before man.
Satan, in this age, is referred to by the Bible as "the god of this world".

2) I read Plato on Atlantis, and a book by Andrew Collins.

3) Salvation doctrine is not difficult and doesn't require deep research.
I was referring to the presence of some doctrines that require study.
But the first thing a man must do is receive the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour by faith. Then once you have the Spirit of God in you, you will be able to discern spiritual truths, because they are the things of God and cannot be discerned by the spirit of man. But the fact that I'm a sinner and Jesus loved me and died for my sin on the cross and resurrected, I got when I was 7 years old, and got saved on my knees in the remote mountains of Lebanon.

4) As for the rapture, there are 3 main passages dealing with the rapture of the church. Get a King James Bible and open to

A) 1 Corinthians 15:51-58
B) 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
C) John 14:1-6

5) In the Bible, angels are above man in wisdom and power.

6) There are many classes of non-human intelligent entities. Here's a quick breakdown

A) Satan and the angels that fell with him in the original rebellion.
They are the ones behind all confusion and "alien" phenomena.

B) Other angels that fell later in Genesis 6. They interbred with female humans, as well as with beasts.

Hence the gods, demi-gods and hybrid life forms of Greek and Egyptian mythology. Distorted history.

Today's aliens are those very gods, a la 21st century!
You see my God has a sense of humour and that's his joke on an evolution-crazed generation. It ends up classifying itself with heathen Zeus-worshipping, Chimera-fearing, Hercules-adoring, Centaur-loving, ancient greeks and egyptian. And its moral values are the same to boot.
Only a la 21st century of course, of course.
You see the gods know how to please the crowd my friend.
"You want evolution? We'll give you evolution. In fact we are the super-evolved. Worship us, we'll save you, tell you about earth's origins, and give you fire (read laser and nuclear energy).
And you folks just stand there utterly awed and fearfully thrilled in your ignorance. But that's what a man gets into without the Bible, when he thinks he's so smart and evolved he doesn't need God's word.

I just love my Lord and the wisdom His Bible gives. Glory to God.
You see when the Bible says there's nothing new under the sun, it's cuz there's nothing new under the sun.

C) spawns of Satan...called devils. Judas Iscariot was one. Though completely human to the human eye. Those are unclean spirits.

D) Genetically manipulated creations of group 1. Some are being formed in the heart of the earth right now and show up when the book of Revelation starts getting fulfilled. You see as a Bible-believer, I not only believe in extra-terrestrials, but also intra-terrestrials.

All classes are subject to group 1.

Well that's about it for now. I'm glad you like where it's going.
I had a glad afternoon myself while I thought you agreed with me lol.

Originally posted by Clearskies:
Jesus said the catching away of the saints is much like Noah and Lot. God could not rain down judgement willy-nilly on his people and the heathen at the same time.

If God was truly omnipotent, he surely could have judged the heathen while saving the just at the same time. God could have created an insect that would kill the Nephilim and not his people. That is just an example. I’m assuming the flood destroyed the who were hybrid part human/angel. I also assume that these hybrid were wicked because they turned there back on God? Or just because they were hybrid?

Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
Numbers 13:33
We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."

The antichrist will try to make people believe he is the second coming.IMO

This is a common belief IMHO. I have also heard that to some mostly the Jews he will be viewed as the first coming of the Messiah

We were definitely started as a christian nation, of course we've had disingenuous christian leaders, who may have even been satanists.The people of this nation wanted to have a nation based on Christ and the bible.

Well said, I really see a lot of this today. We were born a nation of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness regardless of religious belief or practice. I still do not agree we were started as a Christian nation, but we can agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21:
You have much understanding you seem to think is Biblical, but which isn't.

Admittedly I try to pull from all sources, biblical, historical. Truthfully I have a hard time 100% believing in the Bible. You have to admit, things discussed in this thread are pretty way out there, and makes believing in UFO's Bigfoot and that Brittney Spears is a shape-shifting reptilian and is the queen of the NWO easy.

Well that's about it for now. I'm glad you like where it's going. I had a glad afternoon myself while I thought you agreed with me lol.

I’m really trying to understand. I was raised in church my grandfather was a Baptist minister but I struggle having faith. Yet I continue to search and to ask questions. So far in this thread I can see why Young Earth Creation could be believed in, the flood could explain it. I don’t agree with it, but I can see why others would. Also I can see now that Its very possible if not likely when Satan and his fallen angels where cast out of Heaven they were most likely cast down to Earth. I’m very analytical I question Everything, trust me it’s a burden at times, it would be so much easier if I didn’t but I have no choice.

I do believe its possible that this
is why I want to discus these topics. There is a pull, or a reason why I want to know things. This could explain it.

Sorry for jumping around.

I just love my Lord and the wisdom His Bible gives. Glory to God.

To have such faith to be able to believe is alien to me, but I'm trying first to understand.

C) spawns of Satan...called devils. Judas Iscariot was one. Though completely human to the human eye. Those are unclean spirits.

Surely Jesus would have been able to see him for what he was.

D) Genetically manipulated creations of group 1. Some are being formed in the heart of the earth right now and show up when the book of Revelation starts getting fulfilled. You see as a Bible-believer, I not only believe in extra-terrestrials, but also intra-terrestrials.

Interesting to say the least. Humans it seems are on the threshold of doing the same thing with cloning and other sciences.

I also have questions about other things like the Agnostic view of God in the Old Testament and the bible origins. I have studied both, I do find it interesting that the bible was made up by many christain authors but was put together by a pagan Emperor with the First Council of Nicaea

I do have to admit many of the beliefs listed here to me are beyond my ability to grasp. IMHO many of the newer theory's are there because 2000 years ago when the bible was written there was no concept of aliens visiting Earth or the whole dinosaur thing or the pre-tribulation rapture, that I view was just a ploy to fill the churches up with people, to offer a way out so to speak, to make Christianity more palatable to the masses.

What Say You!!!!

I’m really trying to understand. I was raised in church my grandfather was a Baptist minister but I struggle having faith. Yet I continue to search and to ask questions.[...]
I’m very analytical I question Everything, trust me it’s a burden at times, it would be so much easier if I didn’t but I have no choice.

I'm an independent King James Bible believing Baptist.

Blanket skepticism is so easy to sell because it puffs up the ego of the man who ascribes to it. It makes you feel like you're an intellectual above the fray of normal men. I've seen dozens and dozens of guys like that, sighing under the melancholy weight of being "thinkers" yet dutifully accepting Atlas' task of bearing the intellectual weight of the world on their shoulders.
I'm not saying that's the only reason you wrote what you wrote, but I know the lure of such agnosticism.

Isn't it funny how skeptics are never skeptical of skepticism?

If you've got a King James Bible, open to the third chapter of Genesis, verse 1. Do you notice how the first time Satan ever speaks in the Bible, it's actually a question?...aimed at God's words?
He didn't actually deny what God said...just planted a doubt...and left the rest to Eve's mind...auto-suggestibility....subtle subtle the serpent...

That book, if nothing else, is a pretty good discerner of human nature is it not?

I actually suspect you're one of the few, very few, honest seekers. If you are, I have no doubt the Lord Jesus Christ will command the light to shine out of darkness in your heart and set you free. Why don't you ask him to? Put him to the test. Seriously. Tell him if you're God, and that King James Bible is your word, reveal it to me. IF you have an honest heart, he will.

Surely Jesus would have been able to see him for what he was.

Sure. And He still chose him.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Humans it seems are on the threshold of doing the same thing with cloning and other sciences.

It's already been done. Now it's just a question of desensitizing the populace by periodically issuing newspaper articles on the legal and scientific progress of the issue. Most importantly, the peoples must be brainwahsed to perceive these monsters as beautiful, harmless and benevolent creatures: enter Disney's Monsters Inc. ; Lordi winning the euro-vision, etc... hook line and sinker...

I also have questions about other things like the Agnostic view of God in the Old Testament and the bible origins. I have studied both, I do find it interesting that the bible was made up by many christain authors but was put together by a pagan Emperor with the First Council of Nicaea

..."the agnostic view of God in the Old Testament"...friend you got me scratching my head again... I'm reading the Old Testament for the 6th time. I have no idea what you're referring to.

The Bible was written by about 40 authors, all of whom were Jews.
There were no Christians in the Old Testament.
The writers of the New Testament are all Jews who were saved by the Lord Jesus Christ: Matthew, Marc, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Jude.

Only later on are believers referred to as Christians in the book of Acts.

The Old Testament, having 39 books, constituted the Bible at least 700 years before Constantine (whom you correctly point out as being pagan) had his diapers changed.
The other 27 books constituting the New Testament, had been circulating, along with the other 39, as the Bible, all over the world for 350 years before any council was formed. The council only officialized what was already the situation on the ground all over the planet.
You have to keep in mind the Catholic Church is a later creation.
There was no centralization there at that point.

Surface scholarship is the bane of the internet.

I’m sorry I did not mean to use agnostic view of God I meant Gnostic. The were many other book written that the Council of Nicaea could have included in the bible we know today, some of witch are Gnostic in their beliefs that in a nutshell that the God of the old testament is Evil and imperfect.

Gnosticism

I actually suspect you're one of the few, very few, honest seekers. If you are, I have no doubt the Lord Jesus Christ will command the light to shine out of darkness in your heart and set you free. Why don't you ask him to? Put him to the test. Seriously. Tell him if you're God, and that King James Bible is your word, reveal it to me. IF you have an honest heart, he will.

I have no hidden agenda other than a thirst for answers, in my heart and mind; I do think however some of the questions I have and will ask will offend people. Truthfully most Christians won’t talk to be about religion or politics LOL. I need much more than a Sunday school understanding of both the bible and of faith.

And one of you is the devil

Fascinating!

Blanket skepticism is so easy to sell because it puffs up the ego of the man who ascribes to it. It makes you feel like you're an intellectual above the fray of normal men. I've seen dozens and dozens of guys like that, sighing under the melancholy weight of being "thinkers" yet dutifully accepting Atlas' task of bearing the intellectual weight of the world on their shoulders. I'm not saying that's the only reason you wrote what you wrote, but I know the lure of such agnosticism.

Truthfully I have no idea where I stand here. One thing is a guarantee though if I ever come on here and proclaim to be a Christian I will be to the core, unwavering in my beliefs and faith. I am not there, I have attempted several times in my life to attain this but have failed I don’t know if it’s a lack of faith or a inability to achieve it because of my questioning nature. The lack of believe also related to a lack of understanding. This is close to the reason for this thread.

If you've got a King James Bible, open to the third chapter of Genesis, verse 1. Do you notice how the first time Satan ever speaks in the Bible, it's actually a question?...aimed at God's words? He didn't actually deny what God said...just planted a doubt...and left the rest to Eve's mind...auto-suggestibility....subtle subtle the serpent...

Unfortunately I seem to have more traits of the inquisitor. Its been said that in discussing religion with me the worst you can do to me, is to give me faith, the worse I could do to you is to plant a seed of doubt.

That book, if nothing else, is a pretty good discerner of human nature is it not?

I agree completely, the very best of humanity and the very worst.