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Judge says: ALL UK people Must be on DNA Database
page: 4share:
Dont know whether you live in the UK or US but here's proof of corruption in the UK government. Is this enough links for you?
www.ex.ac.uk...
www.labour-watch.com...
Another damning report about national databases and how they might be abused.
Why doesn't that surprise me.
www.timesonline.co.uk...
[edit on 5-9-2007 by kindred]
www.ex.ac.uk...
www.labour-watch.com...
Another damning report about national databases and how they might be abused.
The security fears are fuelled further by the admission that information about the children of celebrities and politicians is likely to be excluded from the system.
Why doesn't that surprise me.
www.timesonline.co.uk...
[edit on 5-9-2007 by kindred]
This makes me sick.
— sorry for the 1 line post, but I'm speachless.
— sorry for the 1 line post, but I'm speachless.
reply to post by kindred
Digging up a list of political "scandals" is a bit like pushing an open door particularly when the list contains an awful lot of references to so called corruption which has been investigated at length and cleared, idle speculation by the tabloids and a baltently anti Labour web site with a fairly obvious agenda.
None of which is to say that there is no political corruption but it doesn't mean that all politicians are corrupt either or the judiciary. In any event it is simply absurd to suggest that no social progress should be considered on the basis that the politicians and judiciary will only screw it up anyway - if we lived by that principle we'd still be living in caves.
The article you quoted from the Times was discussed at some length on another thread and shown to be a serious distortion of the truth here
I can't help noticing that you still haven't backed up the nonsense about DNA profiling of unborn babies or forced medication. While you're doing that you might like to try to find any evidence to support the daft statement that "nearly all problematic children today are mass medicated with antidepressants"
[edit on 5-9-2007 by timeless test]
Digging up a list of political "scandals" is a bit like pushing an open door particularly when the list contains an awful lot of references to so called corruption which has been investigated at length and cleared, idle speculation by the tabloids and a baltently anti Labour web site with a fairly obvious agenda.
None of which is to say that there is no political corruption but it doesn't mean that all politicians are corrupt either or the judiciary. In any event it is simply absurd to suggest that no social progress should be considered on the basis that the politicians and judiciary will only screw it up anyway - if we lived by that principle we'd still be living in caves.
The article you quoted from the Times was discussed at some length on another thread and shown to be a serious distortion of the truth here
I can't help noticing that you still haven't backed up the nonsense about DNA profiling of unborn babies or forced medication. While you're doing that you might like to try to find any evidence to support the daft statement that "nearly all problematic children today are mass medicated with antidepressants"
[edit on 5-9-2007 by timeless test]
Interesting thread, I can't keep my imagination from running wild on this one. While reading through the posts I've been pondering the pro's and
con's of something like this. We've all heard the stories of people wrongfully imprisioned and then released like 15 years later after DNA evidence
has been propperly examined. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to have 15 years of my life taken from me and if some database of DNA evidence
could free the innocent along with rightfully convict the guilty then in that scenario it doesn't sound so bad/scary. I also think of the closure
past victems could receive knowing that the person who raped or harmed them was finally locked away thanks to the wonders of DNA evidence. However
I'm not 100% confident that the system would be "flawless". I've read about "Chamira" DNA, It's very interesting indeed, I've also heard that
twins can share identical DNA. Some of the more paranoid thoughts that come to mind are cloning: the people in charge of such a database would have
the means to pick and choose the best DNA sample reminissant of Hitler and his plans for a super race. Also how much more easier it would be to frame
people for crimes if the government had everybody's DNA, they could just accuse anyone of anything and say that they have undisputable DNA evidence
to back up their claims.
More methods of control. And as usual, they will make the majority, all idiots, believe they need it for their own security, while it's the total
contrary.
hey timeless test, i know this is a step but still.
say this thing gets off the ground....you go into wherever and drop a fingernail, some hair follicles or whatever...half hour later the person that was in the place you just was got murdered...the person who did it was wearing a friggin radiation suit(you get the point).
only dna at the scene is yours.
i'd say you have big problems then......you agree?
those are the things i worry about.
say this thing gets off the ground....you go into wherever and drop a fingernail, some hair follicles or whatever...half hour later the person that was in the place you just was got murdered...the person who did it was wearing a friggin radiation suit(you get the point).
only dna at the scene is yours.
i'd say you have big problems then......you agree?
those are the things i worry about.
Originally posted by cynical572
Also how much more easier it would be to frame people for crimes if the government had everybody's DNA, they could just accuse anyone of anything and say that they have undisputable DNA evidence to back up their claims.
I said it before but you misunderstand the way DNA is now stored.
As far as I know samples arent physically stored now.
They used to be but the retention of data is now done as a series of numbers and letters. I saw it somewhere but for the life of me cant find the article.
reply to post by Boondock78
Yep Boondock, you make a perfectly valid point.
In that situation today I would still run the risk that I could be visually identified as having been at the scene or could have left fingerprints which goes to demonstrate that any form of uncorroborated evidence has to be treated with caution. However, as it stands I think I stand more chance of being misidentified by unreliable eye witness evidence or indeed of being butchered by an unconvicted psychopath than of being unjustly convicted of murder.
There is no doubt that a total population DNA database would bring with it a multitude of problems but at the same time we cannot continue to bemoan the continuing failure of security agencies to solve crimes and then tie one hand behind their backs.
[edit on 5-9-2007 by timeless test]
Yep Boondock, you make a perfectly valid point.
In that situation today I would still run the risk that I could be visually identified as having been at the scene or could have left fingerprints which goes to demonstrate that any form of uncorroborated evidence has to be treated with caution. However, as it stands I think I stand more chance of being misidentified by unreliable eye witness evidence or indeed of being butchered by an unconvicted psychopath than of being unjustly convicted of murder.
There is no doubt that a total population DNA database would bring with it a multitude of problems but at the same time we cannot continue to bemoan the continuing failure of security agencies to solve crimes and then tie one hand behind their backs.
[edit on 5-9-2007 by timeless test]
you misunderstand the way DNA is now stored.
All apologies, I was just considering the pro's and con's of something of this nature, I may have let my imagination run a little wild there. Sounds like what you're saying is that the DNA information is translated into a type of unique code. So I guess my statement about framing people by planting DNA evidence might seem ignorant. Sorry, I'm still new here. But again this is an interesting thread. Makes me wonder if something similar is going on where I live.
If you think being under complete control of a blatantly sleazy, corrupt government is progress then you can count me out. As for any national
database, it wont work and will be wide open to abuse.
Maybe from your perspective but alot of people agreed with what was said in the article. I think Koka summed it up best.
Tony Blair has said it is possible to identify problem children who could grow up to be a potential "menace to society" even before they are born.
politics.guardian.co.uk...
Well maybe I read too much into what was meant by dealing with problematic children in the womb. But it does not state as fact what this so called help will be. It wouldn't surprise if they eventually do use dna profiling. All this legislation is simply one stepping stone to even more regulations and restrictions.
As for mass medication, I suggest you look around on ATS. There's plenty of threads on the issue.
Timeless test
The article you quoted from the Times was discussed at some length on another thread and shown to be a serious distortion of the truth here
Maybe from your perspective but alot of people agreed with what was said in the article. I think Koka summed it up best.
The UK is a "surveilance state" and it's population will never recognise, due to shallow appeasement, over indulgence and self-centredness, the subtle transitions that are pushing us into the aformentioned "police state".
I can't help noticing that you still haven't backed up the nonsense about DNA profiling of unborn babies or forced medication. While you're doing that you might like to try to find any evidence to support the daft statement that "nearly all problematic children today are mass medicated with antidepressants"
Tony Blair has said it is possible to identify problem children who could grow up to be a potential "menace to society" even before they are born.
politics.guardian.co.uk...
Well maybe I read too much into what was meant by dealing with problematic children in the womb. But it does not state as fact what this so called help will be. It wouldn't surprise if they eventually do use dna profiling. All this legislation is simply one stepping stone to even more regulations and restrictions.
As for mass medication, I suggest you look around on ATS. There's plenty of threads on the issue.
dont know if this has been mentioned here yet .. when i watched the news report earlier on T.V .
the judge was also recommending that every single visitor comming into the U.K will also be added to the database.. no matter what country you are from.
the judge was also recommending that every single visitor comming into the U.K will also be added to the database.. no matter what country you are from.
Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel
dont know if this has been mentioned here yet .. when i watched the news report earlier on T.V .
the judge was also recommending that every single visitor comming into the U.K will also be added to the database.. no matter what country you are from.
And I wonder how that will be done?
Ever arrived at Heathrow around 6.00 AM and taken a look at the Non EU queue at Immigration? sometimesover 500 people in the queue
Can you imagine their joy to be told they have got to have a DNA sample taken too??
its being going on for a while now , its all getting worse and worse, they are logging us like cattle..
sometimes i find myself thinking the classic line ...'if your not doing anything wrong then what have you got to worry about'
Then the cold chill go's down my spine as i realise what is right and what is wrong is decided by the very people implementing this.. very scary indeed.
sometimes i find myself thinking the classic line ...'if your not doing anything wrong then what have you got to worry about'
Then the cold chill go's down my spine as i realise what is right and what is wrong is decided by the very people implementing this.. very scary indeed.
Originally posted by kindred
If you think being under complete control of a blatantly sleazy, corrupt government is progress then you can count me out.
Look, that is a wild generalisation and as long as you continue to argue from that point of view the discussion will go nowhere. The fact is that our society has progressed and will continue to progress despite occasional interference from those whose morals are questionable. A database of identification evidence which happens to be based on a chemical signature rather than a fingerprint or photographs really only differs to the extent that it is a damned sight more accurate which would presumably be a good thing, yes?
If you want to speculate about other uses for the data that's fine and as the judge and I and many others on this thread have said the control of such use would indeed be a serious problem.
Plenty of people agreed with the general view expressed in the Times article on the other thread but the quote that you gave was demonstrated to be a distortion of the truth. You don't have to accept that if you don't want to but it is very difficult to read the thread and come to any other conclusion.
As for mass medication, I suggest you look around on ATS. There's plenty of threads on the issue.
If the information is easy to find I imagine you will be able to point it out to me but at the moment you still seem unable to support another wildly overstated claim which does nothing to enhance your credibility.
I'm not sure if this is a good idea or no, I can see potential for great good and also bad to come out of such a move.
I have to say though, regardless of the pros and cons, why when some new proposal is put forward there is this instant knee jerk reaction and cries of police state, facism, NWO etc etc. Speculative arguments about how this system could be abused could just as equally be levelled at creating a police force, an army, driving licence, passport, electoral roll etc. The whole point is we live in a society that tries, imperfectly maybe, to provide checks and balances to limit the potential for abuse of such things.
I have to say though, regardless of the pros and cons, why when some new proposal is put forward there is this instant knee jerk reaction and cries of police state, facism, NWO etc etc. Speculative arguments about how this system could be abused could just as equally be levelled at creating a police force, an army, driving licence, passport, electoral roll etc. The whole point is we live in a society that tries, imperfectly maybe, to provide checks and balances to limit the potential for abuse of such things.
If the information is easy to find I imagine you will be able to point it out to me but at the moment you still seem unable to support another wildly overstated claim which does nothing to enhance your credibility.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I dont think anything I say will make any difference because you obviously have a different viewpoint and will continue to do so no matter what.
Timeless test wrote
The fact is that our society has progressed and will continue to progress despite occasional interference from those whose morals are questionable.
If you want to speculate about other uses for the data that's fine and as the judge and I and many others on this thread have said the control of such use would indeed be a serious problem.
Everything that is being said about national databases and id cards is currently speculation, but that's not to say it wont happen, especially as the government is talking about introducing the legislation I talked about. ID cards are to become compulsory in 2008 or 2009, unless the tories get into power, but even then Labour has already issued contracts to various companies and pulling out of those contracts will probably cost more than the scheme itself, guaranteeing basically that the tories will have no choice but to see the ID card scheme through. Very crafty on New Labours part.
www.thisislondon.co.uk...'t%20be%20a%20passport%20to%20the%20US/article.do?expand=true
The thing is, having a vast DNA database is not going to prevent crime, the same way that everybody having a national ID card is not going to prevent
crime. There are a great many people already walking the streets who are wanted for various crimes and non-appearances in court who may never be
brought to justice, especially if they manage to skip the country.
So, the police may be able to pinpoint the perp but they still have to find and arrest that person, who will then likely receive bail and disappear again.
If someone wants to punch, stab or shoot me for my belongings, a national DNA database is not going to stop them. Ok, it might make the police task of proving "whodunnit" easier but that's no consolation to me, sitting at home / hospital recovering or dead and buried. In short, this will do nothing to prevent crime and make us more secure, despite what the government and their paid idiots in the judiciary may say.
We've gotten along just fine for thousands of years without having these control measures imposed, so why now? Why must we all be catalogued and classified by those who are supposed to serve us and the country?
So, the police may be able to pinpoint the perp but they still have to find and arrest that person, who will then likely receive bail and disappear again.
If someone wants to punch, stab or shoot me for my belongings, a national DNA database is not going to stop them. Ok, it might make the police task of proving "whodunnit" easier but that's no consolation to me, sitting at home / hospital recovering or dead and buried. In short, this will do nothing to prevent crime and make us more secure, despite what the government and their paid idiots in the judiciary may say.
We've gotten along just fine for thousands of years without having these control measures imposed, so why now? Why must we all be catalogued and classified by those who are supposed to serve us and the country?
Originally posted by kindred
I dont think anything I say will make any difference because you obviously have a different viewpoint and will continue to do so no matter what.
Yes I do have a different viewpoint but I hope I am open minded enough to recognise when I am wrong or misguided and respond accordingly. I objected to some of the points you made because they were unsupported scaremongering which you were not able to provide any evidence to support. In this particular case you are directing me to threads which demonstrate that anti-depressants have some pretty unpleasant side effects and I'm not going to dispute that for a moment.
What I disputed and will continue to dispute is your unsubstantiated claim that those drugs are administered to "nearly all problematic children".
These are important issues which is why it is so interesting and important to discuss them and I certainly don't expect everyone to conform to my view of the World but if you want to bring me round to your viewpoint then the argument will have to be credible.
At which point I suspect that we should cease the bickering and see if the thread has anywhere else to go.
Britguy wrote.
We've gotten along just fine for thousands of years without having these control measures imposed, so why now? Why must we all be catalogued and classified by those who are supposed to serve us and the country?
Good point Britguy - I want to know too. Maybe some one can shed light on what britguy has so eloquently pointed out.
[edit on 5-9-2007 by kindred]
reply to post by Britguy
It isnt intended to initially preventcrime but initially to detect it.
However the eventualidea is that, unlessyou cover yourseld up 100% then there will be a chance ofsome of your DNA being left at the scene of the crime and you will be caught.
It could eventually become a deterrent.
However, I say bring back the whip, and the stocks, public humiliation works.
I would not however sanction the deportation of criminals to Australia. That is a punishment too severe to condone
It isnt intended to initially preventcrime but initially to detect it.
However the eventualidea is that, unlessyou cover yourseld up 100% then there will be a chance ofsome of your DNA being left at the scene of the crime and you will be caught.
It could eventually become a deterrent.
However, I say bring back the whip, and the stocks, public humiliation works.
I would not however sanction the deportation of criminals to Australia. That is a punishment too severe to condone
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