The argument over the existence of God

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by West Coast

 

you asked what the meaning of life was...
here's the honest truth: it NEEDS NO MEANING.

Think about what you just said Mr.Madness...

I dont think you really took the time to think my question through.

It needs no meaning? Or is it, you cant explain a meaning because your base your meaning on 'your theory' which just might be a bunch of bunk?

Ask yourself, why...why are we here? What is the reason. Why do we exist? Why do we bleed, sweat, have emotions of all sorts, lie, cheat, steal ,eat, etc... What gave us morals? Where did they come from? What is the purpose of life then if there is no meaning to it? If there was no meaning, then why the morals? There has had to of been some sort of meaning to it, or we wouldnt be here. Think about how empty space is. Think about how incrediably vast space is. What are the odds we just popped up from nothing with our intelligence and morals? From that nothing, there has had to of been a purpose or we would not exist in our current state. There had to be a meaning for intelligent life forms such as ourself to exist, or we wouldnt exist. Think about that a little longer, then get back to me...

Where did trees come from? Grass? How about water, which supports trees and grass? We drink from the water, without it, we're screwed. If we had niether, life would not exist as we know it, because we depend on it. How did somthing so incrediably saphisticated just sprout up from nothing? What created the complicated seeds for trees, grass, fruits and vegetables? How about, so they could support life? Do you think that is possible? So that they can support our lifes? Proof of intelligent design possibly? Or, did it just by "chance" come from nothing? Kent hovind has a pretty good analogy I think im going to steal. A motorcycle is pretty sophisticated, it has an engine, gears that shift the machine into higher speeds..etc. A motorcycle is a sign of intelligent design. Did a motor cycle just sprout up from nothing? No, someone smart created it. Why cant the same be said about earth and all of its inhabitants?


[edit on 5-9-2007 by West Coast]

[edit on 5-9-2007 by West Coast]

Westcoast, if you like reading books, I would recommend "the moral animal" just for you.

cheers.

Deep breath, here goes:

Originally posted by West Coast
And your proof for this is? And then theres always that "what if" question.

His proof is this: matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, merely transformed. Therefore, everything we see has been around in one form or another for an infinite length of time, ie, forever. And to head off the inevitable response to this that I see coming, no, nobody ever said that the Big Bang created the universe. The universe was always there, only before the Big Bang it was compressed almost infinitely.

Again this doesnt answer my question. You side stepped my question. Why is everything so finely tuned to support an advanced life form such as ourselves? What existed before us in order to make us 'exist' today, and then what created that?

No, he answered your question dead on. It's known as the Anthropic Prinicple, and it states that only a universe set up in such a way as to produce intelligent life could house life that would then be able to look back at itself and ponder why it exists. The universe wasn't made to support us, we are merely a fortunate outgrowth of the universe we happen to inhabit. If the constants were just a touch off, none of us would exist and we would not be debating it on the internet.

Cogito ergo mundus talis est, I think, therefore the world is such.

LOL. Well Mr.Darkside, not in the sense in which humans do.

And exactly how is that measured? How did they come to such a conclusion? Can they be 100% sure that monkeys are on the same moral highground as we humans?

I would love to see such steadys for validation.

Monkeys may not have such developed morals as humans do, but they do have them. Empathy, altrusim, self-sacrifice, conflict resolution...all of these have been observed and tested in the animal kingdom. A quick google search will yield more than a few books on the subject.

Proof?

What is the meaning of life then?

To survive long enough to have children. Continuation of the species. If you have some time and resources left over, try and improve the world for the rest of humanity. That's about it.

The point is, dont be so narrow minded. Get off your high horse. Accept new ideas. We humans cannot explain everything. So some people have a hard time excepting this. It scares them that we dont know or have control of our own destiny, or what is happening around us.. It scares them that we are so utterly clueless as to where we fit in in the grand scheme of things, etc.

We can't explain everything, this is true. Not yet. More than a few people are scared of the unknown. But it does nobody any good to fill the unknown with untestable, illogical fairy tales and assume all is right with the world. Don't just accept new ideas. Question them.

More of your narrow mindedness! Do you see where im getting at with that? The proof is all around you. Just open up your eyes.

Speaking of question dodging, that was a good move. Just saying someone is narrow minded, and telling them to "open their eyes"...that's no argument. If he's narrow minded, show him how he is. Show him proof, make him a believer. Don't just stand there and tell him he doesn't get it.

It needs no meaning? Or is it, you cant explain a meaning because your base your meaning on 'your theory' which just might be a bunch of bunk?

And what about your "theory"? Sounds like a load of bunk to me. Life needs no meaning...it is what you make of it.

Ask yourself, why...why are we here? What is the reason. Why do we exist? Why do we bleed, sweat, have emotions of all sorts, lie, cheat, steal ,eat, etc... What gave us morals? Where did they come from? What is the purpose of life then if there is no meaning to it? If there was no meaning, then why the morals? There has had to of been some sort of meaning to it, or we wouldnt be here. Think about how empty space is. Think about how incrediably vast space is. What are the odds we just popped up from nothing with our intelligence and morals? From that nothing, there has had to of been a purpose or we would not exist in our current state. There had to be a meaning for intelligent life forms such as ourself to exist, or we wouldnt exist. Think about that a little longer, then get back to me...

Where did trees come from? Grass? How about water, which supports trees and grass? We drink from the water, without it, we're screwed. If we had niether, life would not exist as we know it, because we depend on it. How did somthing so incrediably saphisticated just sprout up from nothing? What created the complicated seeds for trees, grass, fruits and vegetables? How about, so they could support life? Do you think that is possible? So that they can support our lifes?

Why does there always "have to be" a purpose? Why is that? Why can't it be that we are a product of everything here, that we are a consequence and not a reason? That we are a result, not a basis? What about that is so hard to grasp? We need water because it was one of the important building blocks of carbon-based life, and there just happens to be a ton of it lying around. With space so vast, doesn't it seem reasonable that eventually our perfect set of conditions would arise, producing us as a result?

"There had to be a meaning for intelligent life forms such as ourself to exist, or we wouldnt exist." What kind of circular statement is that? Why can't we just be? Why not? Why is that not even an option? Does it devalue life in some way? That we're a colossal fluke? No, not at all. If anything, it makes it much more valuable.

Trees, grass, plants, everything...we've stated countless times, and probably will countless more, that it's all a result of explainable processes. Nothing more than natural processes created them, and it just so happens that fruit and vegetables are usually vehicles for plant reproduction, filled with nutrients geared to feed and nuture the seeds within to produce more plantlife. What is so unusual about the fact that we would be able to consume that nutrient matter ourselves?

Continued...

Proof of intelligent design possibly? Or, did it just by "chance" come from nothing?

Intelligent design...the whole theory can be debunked with one concept: how could an all powerful designer, all knowing and perfect, create something so horribly flawed, prone to disease, inefficient and disgusting as a human being? We are terribly "put together" as it were, filled with biological dead ends and genetic flaws, almost like we were produced...from chance.

Kent hovind has a pretty good analogy I think im going to steal. A motorcycle is pretty sophisticated, it has an engine, gears that shift the machine into higher speeds..etc. A motorcycle is a sign of intelligent design. Did a motor cycle just sprout up from nothing? No, someone smart created it. Why cant the same be said about earth and all of its inhabitants?

Kent Hovind? There's few better names to throw around than his if you want to totally shoot your credibility. And no, a motorcycle didn't spring up from nothing. Then again, a motorcycle is absolutely nothing like a human being, at all. Maybe if there were robots marching around who were not products of man, you could use that analogy, but there aren't, and so the analogy is actually a logical fallacy, a false comparison. It's not good at all.

Originally posted by West Coast
Think about what you just said Mr.Madness...

i've actually thought about it quite some bit.

I dont think you really took the time to think my question through.

bit false to claim that it's your question, but i get your point... however, you're wrong.

It needs no meaning?

yep.

Or is it, you cant explain a meaning because your base your meaning on 'your theory' which just might be a bunch of bunk?

well, ANY theory might just be a bunch of bunk, but the evidence supports the theories... it's quite obvious which ones are true.

i can say life has no inherent meaning for a simple reason, but i'll get to it later.

Ask yourself, why...why are we here?

because stuff happened and eventually your mother gave birth to you and my mother gave birth to me.

What is the reason.

as i said, we need no reason for our existence.

Why do we exist?

because of a long evolutionary process, formation of life, the earth, the solar system, the sun, the milky way, etc etc

Why do we bleed, sweat, have emotions of all sorts, lie, cheat, steal ,eat, etc...

we bleed because we have a circulatory system that has evolved to feed oxygen to our body parts
we sweat because it's a temperature regulation system
we have emotions because they were beneficial to survival
we lie because we aren't perfect
we cheat because we don't have the confidence to do things the right way or for other reasons
we steal for various reasons.

What gave us morals? Where did they come from?

evolutionary psychology and human reason.

What is the purpose of life then if there is no meaning to it?

well, the most base purpose is to survive and reproduce... but i'd actually say that the real purpose for life is the purpose you make for yourself.

If there was no meaning, then why the morals?

morals were beneficial to the survival of the species, they got carried along as a psychological meme

There has had to of been some sort of meaning to it, or we wouldnt be here.

that's a non-sequiter. you can't back up that statement.
why must meaning be a pre-requisite to existence?
seems like you're making quite the arrogant assumption here.

Think about how empty space is.

think about how full it is...

Think about how incrediably vast space is.

about 13.7 billion lightyears from one end to the other.

What are the odds we just popped up from nothing with our intelligence and morals?

we didn't just "pop up from nothing" with those things. it took hundreds of millions of years for those things to develop... a timescale our limited perception tends to have a problem understanding.

From that nothing,

no, nothing in this universe came from nothing. something came from something.

there has had to of been a purpose or we would not exist in our current state.

again, why? why would we not exist in our current state without a purpose?

There had to be a meaning for intelligent life forms such as ourself to exist, or we wouldnt exist. Think about that a little longer, then get back to me...

i'm thinking about it... and i don't see why we must have a meaning. our existence is independent of its attachments.

care to support the argument?

Where did trees come from?

they evolved from ferns, ferns evolved from other photosynthetic stuff, etc etc, until L.U.C.A. (last universal common ancestor)

Grass?

similar to trees

How about water, which supports trees and grass?

water developed through a combination of hydrogen and oxygen in a natural process of a primordial earth

We drink from the water, without it, we're screwed. If we had niether, life would not exist as we know it, because we depend on it.

yes, your powers of observation are up to par.

How did somthing so incrediably saphisticated just sprout up from nothing?

it didn't sprout up from nothing! that's the point that you fail to miss. nobody is saying that it sprouted up from nothing, it slowly moved up in complexity from something far less sophisticated over the course of hundreds of million to billions of years. a timescale, as i pointed out before, that we can't 100% wrap our minds around because we evolved around middle range timescales.

What created the complicated seeds for trees, grass, fruits and vegetables?

they evolved, slowly slowly.

How about, so they could support life? Do you think that is possible? So that they can support our lifes?

....those things aren't here just to support our life, those things are here and they happen to support our life.

Proof of intelligent design possibly?

you can't prove intelligent design until you first prove the existence of the designer

Or, did it just by "chance" come from nothing?

again, you misunderstand the theories you attack

Kent hovind has a pretty good analogy I think im going to steal.

no he doesn't. he has no good analogies and is a horrid propagator of lies and ignorance.
www.kent-hovind.com...
read all of this and tell me if you really think he's anything but what i've said.

A motorcycle is pretty sophisticated, it has an engine, gears that shift the machine into higher speeds..etc. A motorcycle is a sign of intelligent design. Did a motor cycle just sprout up from nothing? No, someone smart created it. Why cant the same be said about earth and all of its inhabitants?

because we have no proof of a designer? because carbon can form in complex patterns that will, over the course of a few eons, become complex life that can build motorcycles if given the proper conditions.

Originally posted by West Coast
And your proof for this is? And then theres always that "what if" question.

I've considered it, don't worry about that. But it's so unlikely and unrealistic that it has been discarded

Why is everything so finely tuned to support an advanced life form such as ourselves?

So pretentious to think a whole universe was tuned in order to make some dumb hairless ape appear on a lonely rock

What existed before us in order to make us 'exist' today, and then what created that?

No one knows. Why do you assume it was created?

LOL. Well Mr.Darkside, not in the sense in which humans do.

And exactly how is that measured? How did they come to such a conclusion? Can they be 100% sure that monkeys are on the same moral highground as we humans?

I would love to see such steadys for validation.

By observing their behavior. I didn't say it was the same moral sense as humans though.

Proof?

What is the meaning of life then?

I don't have proof that nothing happens but it's logical that nothing will happen. Again why do you think something should happen in the first place?

And there's no inherent meaning to life.

The point is, dont be so narrow minded. Get off your high horse. Accept new ideas. We humans cannot explain everything. So some people have a hard time excepting this. It scares them that we dont know or have control of our own destiny, or what is happening around us.. It scares them that we are so utterly clueless as to where we fit in in the grand scheme of things, etc.

You call religion and god "new ideas"? haha. You are the one being narrow-minded by claiming that everything that we don't understand, is there or happens because of some supernatural force that no one has ever seen.

Just accept reality as it is, and stop inventing superstitious answers to everything we don't understand.

More of your narrow mindedness! Do you see where im getting at with that? The proof is all around you. Just open up your eyes.

Aah, the usual "the proof is all around us" argument, spare me..

I do not believe that morals came from religion. I believe they came from a natural process, you can't very well live by the law of the jungle in a society. When humans went from nomad hunter/gatherers and created settlements morals seems to be a logical change that occurred. They may not have been as refined as they are today, but any intelligent person would see that murder, rape, stealing, assault is bad in any urban setting. If you have all these bad things no one would want to live there. Its human nature to want some sort security. Look at the ancient Greeks they had rule of law throughout all the city states, they were pagan.

Originally posted by DarkSide
So pretentious to think a whole universe was tuned in order to make some dumb hairless ape appear on a lonely rock

Proove to me we're not the only ones out there. Maybe the wrong thing to ask on this message board... IF there is life out there, whos to say it wasnt created by the same creator?

No one knows. Why do you assume it was created?

Well, how did it get here? Somthing had to create us from nothing. Or else why would we be here.

By observing their behavior. I didn't say it was the same moral sense as humans though.

Which prooves nothing. A monkey is more similiar to a human then a fish is. A fish is more similiar to a whale. But, does that mean the fish is related to the whale? There just similarties. Monkeys, do not stand on the same moral high ground as humans. and they sure as hell are not as smart as us either.

I don't have proof that nothing happens but it's logical that nothing will happen. Again why do you think something should happen in the first place?

Well it all falls back to "why are we here".

And there's no inherent meaning to life.

And why do you think this?

You call religion and god "new ideas"? haha. You are the one being narrow-minded by claiming that everything that we don't understand, is there or happens because of some supernatural force that no one has ever seen.

I dont believe in half the religious hooplah that goes on. I do however believe that there had to be a creator without a doubt, or else we would not be here. I am being open minded in accepting new ideas. I am not being narrowminded in trashing a person based on his own beliefs. You are, as are others here on this site.

Just accept reality as it is, and stop inventing superstitious answers to everything we don't understand.

It is what I believe, and since i am not being force fed to take a test based on pure bunk, i will have my opinion, just as you will have yours.

"the proof is all around us"

It really is.



[edit on 7-9-2007 by West Coast]

Intelligent design...the whole theory can be debunked with one concept: how could an all powerful designer, all knowing and perfect, create something so horribly flawed,

We are all sinners. We are less then perfect.

I know that is not the answer you were looking for.

prone to disease, inefficient and disgusting as a human being? We are terribly "put together" as it were, filled with biological dead ends and genetic flaws, almost like we were produced...from chance.

And yet if you get a scratch. your body heals itself, Break a bone, your body heals itself, etc I can keep going on and on there. We humans to day, do not help our health out by eating all the crap we eat (junk food which is all around us), and by not exercising to maintain a perfectly healthy body. Take the necissary steps to make your body healthier and the more effiecent it will run. I am also a believer in self healing. I think the human body is capable of some pretty wonderous things.

Originally posted by West Coast
Proove to me we're not the only ones out there.

Maybe the wrong thing to ask on this message board... IF there is life out there, whos to say it wasnt created by the same creator?

I'm quite sure there is life out there, since it seems logical there are other life supporting planets, but there's no proof sorry.

Well, how did it get here?

Somthing had to create us from nothing. Or else why would we be here.

If the universe always existed, it wasn't created.

Which prooves nothing. A monkey is more similiar to a human then a fish is. A fish is more similiar to a whale. But, does that mean the fish is related to the whale? There just similarties. Monkeys, do not stand on the same moral high ground as humans. and they sure as hell are not as smart as us either.

Fact is that monkeys and apes have a moral code, I never said it was the same that humans have, but it's there.

And Whales are mammals, not fish. They're still related though.

Well it all falls back to "why are we here".

More than 3 billion years of evolution my friend.

And why do you think this?

Because there's nothing substantial that points out the contrary.

I dont believe in half the religious hooplah that goes on. I do however believe that there had to be a creator without a doubt, or else we would not be here. I am being open minded in accepting new ideas. I am not being narrowminded in trashing a person based on his own beliefs. You are, as are others here on this site.

Even if there is a creator, what makes you assume he cares about humans and gives them eternal life? Your jumping to conclusions. And again believing in a creator is an ancestral believe, nothing groundbreaking about it.

It really is.

Then show me an example

Originally posted by West Coast
And yet if you get a scratch. your body heals itself, Break a bone, your body heals itself, etc I can keep going on and on there. We humans to day, do not help our health out by eating all the crap we eat (junk food which is all around us), and by not exercising to maintain a perfectly healthy body. Take the necissary steps to make your body healthier and the more effiecent it will run. I am also a believer in self healing. I think the human body is capable of some pretty wonderous things.

A scratch isn't cancer. Or Alzheimer's. Or Crohn's. Or Huntington's. Or cystic fibrosis. Or Down syndrome. Eat all the vitamins and drink all the purified water you want, genetic disorders don't heal. They are products of millennia of subtle genetic shift and are hallmarks of our progression by mutation. Here is a list of genetic disorders. Now tell me how an omnipotent creator could have slipped up so badly in making us.

reply to post by West Coast


seems like you didn't see my responses to your posts... i bring up quite a few points that darkside didn't... probably because i brought them up and he didn't want to be overly repetitive

One word... Interpretations....

Originally posted by Thousand
A scratch isn't cancer. Or Alzheimer's. Or Crohn's. Or Huntington's. Or cystic fibrosis. Or Down syndrome. Eat all the vitamins and drink all the purified water you want, genetic disorders don't heal. They are products of millennia of subtle genetic shift and are hallmarks of our progression by mutation. Here is a list of genetic disorders. Now tell me how an omnipotent creator could have slipped up so badly in making us.

Man is not perfect. Have you ever heard of a man named "Phineas P. Gage"? He was a man who was working on the american railroad in the 1850's. There was an accident one day that involved Mr.Phineas. A container exploded and sent a long piece of metal shrapnel into Mr. Phineas head. His entire frontal lobe of his brain was pushed out from the force of the shrapnel, parts of his skull, he lost his left eye, pretty gruesome stuff. After a few minutes pass, mr.phineas comes to, gets up, and is talking. His friends rush him to a local motel so he could seek some form of medical attention. 5 months after this ordeal, Mr.Phineas is back at work on paving americas railroads.mental retardation for starters, can be caused by a number of things, such as a careless mother. Major accidents, etc. To me it seems that you are cherry picking your examples. There is a vast populous out there that doesnt have these problems, a healthy life style 'could' potentially curb some 'genetic diseases' as well. By making sure your body is getting what it needs, i feel you can change your body and advance it, and make it run much more efficient, if you really put in the extra time to make sure your living a healthy life style. A healthy frame of mind is also important.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
bit false to claim that it's your question, but i get your point... however, you're wrong.

In what regards? How are you so sure that you are right?

well, ANY theory might just be a bunch of bunk, but the evidence supports the theories... it's quite obvious which ones are true.

And what is the evidence you speak of mr.madness? Monkeys morphing into man? If thats what you believe, then what made life so easy for such an animal to adapt. What created the environment, the food, etc?

because stuff happened and eventually your mother gave birth to you and my mother gave birth to me.

Well, thats not really where I was getting at. Why, are we humans here. What helped us 'find our way'? Why do we as a species even exist? You base your theorys on evolution. What if, evolution is true. But theres a twist. There was a creator who saw the steps of evolution through. We are put together to damn well, IMHO for it to just happen by 'accident'.

as i said, we need no reason for our existence.

But what do you base this on?

because of a long evolutionary process, formation of life, the earth, the solar system, the sun, the milky way, etc etc

And yet we, an advanced race find ourselves here in lonely outerspace. Why?

we bleed because we have a circulatory system that has evolved to feed oxygen to our body parts

Just its is just coincidence? Or, did someone know what they were doing when they put us together?

we sweat because it's a temperature regulation system

And why is it so perfect? Its as if someone knew what they were doing.

What happened, in order to create the universe that we live in? We are an advanced race with all sorts of emotions. If evolution is your theory, then what created the very first life form, from which we eventually evolved from? How does life just come up from scratch? The Universe, why is it here? What is its purpose? There has to be a purpose.






[edit on 7-9-2007 by West Coast]

Originally posted by West Coast
To me it seems that you are cherry picking your examples.

So by selecting a few of the most well known, widespread genetic disorders that 'eating healthy' can't magically explain away, I'm now cherry picking? That's rich.

There is a vast populous out there that doesnt have these problems, a healthy life style 'could' potentially curb some 'genetic diseases' as well.

And there are a great number out there who do, and the vast majority inherited these illnesses from their parents at conception. What do you have to say about that?

By making sure your body is getting what it needs, i feel you can change your body and advance it, and make it run much more efficient, if you really put in the extra time to make sure your living a healthy life style. A healthy frame of mind is also important.

Sure, eating right and staying positive is great for you. But does chowing down on granola and guzzling carrot juice cure Down Syndrome? No. And how you feel on the issue doesn't change it one bit.

Well, thats not really where I was getting at. Why, are we humans here. What helped us 'find our way'? Why do we as a species even exist? You base your theorys on evolution. What if, evolution is true. But theres a twist. There was a creator who saw the steps of evolution through. We are put together to damn well, IMHO for it to just happen by 'accident'.

Your opinion is yours to have. But just like I think blue is the best color out there, that doesn't make it true. Life is so terribly complex that we don't yet fully understand it. But just because you don't understand genetics and speciation does not make them wrong.

But what do you base this on?

Why do you just keep asking that question over again whenever we answer it? Why is it so incredibly urgent that our lives need to mean something?

Just its is just coincidence? Or, did someone know what they were doing when they put us together?

It's neither. It's just a circulatory system. It's evolution is well understood and the various stages it went through to become the system we have are found spread far and wide in the animal kingdom.

And why is it so perfect? Its as if someone knew what they were doing.

You're just going to keep turning back to this no matter what we say. And no, our ability to regulate our own body temperature is far from perfect. If it was perfect, nobody would die from fever, sunstroke, or hypothermia.

What happened, in order to create the universe that we live in? We are an advanced race with all sorts of emotions. If evolution is your theory, then what created the very first life form, from which we eventually evolved from? How does life just come up from scratch? The Universe, why is it here? What is its purpose? There has to be a purpose.

We've covered the origins of the universe as they are currently understood. Reread the thread if you've forgotten already. The first life on Earth came from either Abiogenesis or Panspermia. Abiogenesis states that complex chemicals, when excited by solar or nuclear radiation, can fuse into simple proteins. The universe is here because it is here. It has no "purpose", and merely repeating that it does over and over again does not change that.

It's clear to see the direction this argument is headed. No matter how formidable the wall of facts are that we throw at you, you will just counter with "there has to be a purpose, there has to be", "you're just being narrow minded", "accept new ideas", or "the truth is all around you, open your eyes". There's really no sense in continuing because even though you claim to want answers to your questions, you'll just keep asking them over and over until we either give up and tell you what you want to hear, or give up and leave.

Seeing as what you want to hear is scientific nonsense, I choose the latter option.

Originally posted by West Coast
And what is the evidence you speak of mr.madness? Monkeys morphing into man?

No one said anything about monkeys morphing into man. Even if it's true, so what? Is it that werid that you think a higher being whose all powerful exist yet does nothing to help, normal? And all the stuff in the bible? In my opinion, the bible is alot harder to believe than evoulution.

Originally posted by West Coast
If thats what you believe, then what made life so easy for such an animal to adapt. What created the environment, the food, etc?

Who said anything about easy? Those who didn't have the ability to survive, died out. The enviroment is a natural process of life, H2O, sunlight and the right temperature. You guys asks all these questions on how did this happen, what created this, when you can not answer what created god. God coudln't just be there, if that's your answer, then replace god with universe.

Originally posted by West Coast
Well, thats not really where I was getting at. Why, are we humans here. What helped us 'find our way'? Why do we as a species even exist? You base your theorys on evolution. What if, evolution is true. But theres a twist. There was a creator who saw the steps of evolution through. We are put together to damn well, IMHO for it to just happen by 'accident'.

What do you mean find our way? We are here because of evolution, and which ever path it choses it becomes ours. yeh i'm sure god helped us find 'our way', what ever that means, like he helped those in need...

Where's your evidence for saying a creator who saw the setps of evlution? How exactly do you know this?
And no we are not put together so damn well, there are many flaws.
Seriouly, when you guys say accident with this 'as if' attitude, you wouldn't be saying it, if this accident or what never occured.

because of a long evolutionary process, formation of life, the earth, the solar system, the sun, the milky way, etc etc

Originally posted by West Coast
And yet we, an advanced race find ourselves here in lonely outerspace. Why?

We're not that advanced. And who said anything about being alone? Did the bible say this, because we're so special?

we bleed because we have a circulatory system that has evolved to feed oxygen to our body parts

Originally posted by West Coast
Just its is just coincidence? Or, did someone know what they were doing when they put us together?

It's not coincidence, if it never happened, then you proberly wouldn't be here right now... Those who have the ability to survive, live on, and those who don't die out.

we sweat because it's a temperature regulation system

And why is it so perfect? Its as if someone knew what they were doing.

Originally posted by West Coast
What happened, in order to create the universe that we live in? We are an advanced race with all sorts of emotions. If evolution is your theory, then what created the very first life form, from which we eventually evolved from? How does life just come up from scratch? The Universe, why is it here? What is its purpose? There has to be a purpose.

Big Bang. When you mean first life form, do you mean god? If so you should ask yourself this. If life wasn't the way it is, then we wouldn't be alive and be able to express out opinion. If you were never born, would you be alive and asking these question? No, the same way the universe exists, properly had to go through alot of change before it could support life.

The universe exist because it has the ability to exist, it doesn't exist because it has some mobo jumbo purpose which you assume.






[edit on 7-9-2007 by West Coast]

I guess anyone can come up and start a religion... Its amazing how each religion from each culture differs from each other so much.
Heres what Jesus could be
1. A maniac
2. A fraud
3. Son of God
4. An idiotic liar
5. Attention seeker.

Could jesus faked his own death ? was the bible just a book of fiction ? i dont know any of that crap since i dont believe in anything.

BTW there are many evidence supporting that not everything in the bible is true. there are civilization which survived the great flood. and the fact that we all descended from Adam and eve is just pretty unbelievable. the bible just dosnt fit into science such as dinosaurs or even cave men.

Your opinion is yours to have. But just like I think blue is the best color out there, that doesn't make it true. Life is so terribly complex that we don't yet fully understand it. But just because you don't understand genetics and speciation does not make them wrong.

So let me ask you this, If we don't fully understand life, how can you just say our belief is wrong? We do not fully understand how this universe even came to be. Some scientists say the big bang theory, but they still have no evidence to determine if it was the actual event that triggered us to be here.
How can the materials always be there? Something had to make it, in order for it to be here.