Valedictorian sues over Gospel speech

Source: www.nworeport.com...




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[edit on 1-9-2007 by SkepticOverlord]

I think you all can see what is going on with the schools, and with this nation with story's like this. It's clear we are losing our rights.

Man, I hope she not only gets a bunch of money, but that the school is severly scrutinized for taking away someone's rights to speech.

"We are all capable of standing firm and expressing our own beliefs, which is why I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know him personally I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice he made for you so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with him."

I have to disagree on this. She went above and beyond her personal beliefs and told all others present that they should basically have her beliefs as well. What happened to seperation of church and state? Her freedom of speech was in no way violated and the school district had every right to be upset about this. Freedom of speech is not there for us to be able to say whatever we want whenever we want. Her family and others need to look up constitutional law and see what freedom of speech really stands for. Though in our society nowadays they will most likely get what they want since politics and religion are now in the same bed.

How is this a conspiracy though? How are freedoms being taken away when religion has no place in public schools?

I will now back away slowly . . .

Originally posted by bobafett1972


How is this a conspiracy though? How are freedoms being taken away when religion has no place in public schools?

Where is the conspiracy? The conspiracy is in taking in one person losing their right to free speech. And this isn't about religion in public schools, this is about one person's right to use their few minutes as they please. She said nothing that incited riot, nor did she say anything that promoted illegal behavior. She chose to use her moments to express her faith. She did not demand action from anyone but urged others to investigate her faith.

This is a major situation.

[edit on 8-31-2007 by Valhall]

Why sue for money? What happened to:

"Bring me a denarius and let me look at it." They brought the coin, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's," they replied.

Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." - Mark 12:15-17

Unfortunately, this is going to turn into using belief in God to extort money if she asks for anything other than a diploma and cost to go to court. I don't see how suing for dollars helps build God's kingdom.

She should not apologize, mere seek the diploma she has earned.

[edit on 31-8-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Valhall
She chose to use her moments to express her faith.

no, she chose those few minutes not to express her faith, but to express that her faith is right and to attempt to convert people. if she had just said something about her personal belief, i doubt this would've been an issue.

She did not demand action from anyone but urged others to investigate her faith.

exactly, she proselytized from the podium. that's wrong

This is a major situation.

no, it isn't... it's just yet another thread where christians whine about "being oppressed"

bad christians, you can't have a persecution complex
not yours

and saint makes a good point about the money, jesus would probably give her a stern wag of the finger for seeking money

[edit on 9/1/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Well, I realize that just a small whiff of spirituality really puts your panties in a wad, but no she did not express that her faith is right and no she did not attempt to convert people. She encouraged them to learn more about Jesus and the sacrifice he made.

And yes, it is a major situation because a citizen has exercised their freedom of speech and now been punished for doing so. Now - where in that statement did I refer to christians or persecution? No where.

Why don't you go get some counceling for that unhealthy anger you have because quite frankly we're not health experts here and we can't help you - but your militance on anything that has the slightest spiritual factor to it is damned sure getting annoying.

[edit on 9-1-2007 by Valhall]

Well, I see nothing angry in Madness's post.
But I can't help but wonder if the girl had given a speech proselitizing for Paganism or Islam, what would have been the response? I'm sure quite a few would be offended.

A public school graduation is not the place to proselytize for any religion. I find the girl's stance to be offensive, if I wanted to hear about Christianity, I'd go to church. I'm sick of self-righteous religionists evangelizing wherever they feel like it, then claiming oppression for being Christian, at the same time denying other people the right to express their religion.

Originally posted by forestlady
Well, I see nothing angry in Madness's post.
But I can't help but wonder if the girl had given a speech proselitizing for Paganism or Islam, what would have been the response? I'm sure quite a few would be offended.

Offense resides solely in the offended. Deciding you'll be offended by another's remarks is a decision on your part, it does not equate to the person making the comments performing a punishable act.

And, yes, I think you are correct that if the girl had made the comment in reference to any religion, she would have suffered the same ill-treatment. I've got a feeling if she had made an anti-war statement she may have as well. That's my point here - if madness can get off his anti-religion horse for a minute this is a matter of being allowed to exercise your freedom of speech without retaliation from spineless jerks who seem to dedicate themselves to being "anti-offense police". These PC police are stripping our ability to speak on any contentious issue - whether it be religion, politics, war, whatever.

Let's review what took place here because some one tried to tie this to separation of church and state. This girl was not speaking on behalf of the school. She had meritoriously earned the right to speak to her classmates due to her scholastic record. If she had decided to use that right to call them to action to "rail against the machine" that is causing their brothers and sisters and friends to die in an unjust war she would have been within her rights. It was her time earned to pass to her classmates what she felt was important for their future.

Originally posted by forestlady
Well, I see nothing angry in Madness's post.
But I can't help but wonder if the girl had given a speech proselitizing for Paganism or Islam, what would have been the response? I'm sure quite a few would be offended.

I think this is a good point. Personally I think it already happened at my graduation. I had senator Venerables speak where he condemned pop music and exhalted politics. So...what am I supposed to do about it? My answer to this good question is, if someone stood at my graduation and said, "Satan really helped me through this, I urge you all to find the truth about him" then yes, it may make people squirm in their seat, but it is the speaker's opinion. The speaker is not a news reporter, they are a person and are entitled to their beliefs.

Originally posted by forestlady
A public school graduation is not the place to proselytize for any religion. I find the girl's stance to be offensive, if I wanted to hear about Christianity, I'd go to church.

Thank God for churches then, eh?

Originally posted by forestlady
I'm sick of self-righteous religionists evangelizing wherever they feel like it, then claiming oppression for being Christian, at the same time denying other people the right to express their religion.

Christians should not be denying other peoples rights to express their religion.

Thanks for the agreement on the money point madness. It's been a while since we agreed on something

Valhall, I like your points and am glad you're here discussing it.

Instead of her ad-libbing, she should've written Jesus Christ in her speech when she submitted it for approval. When the school said "no", THEN it is time to question "why"? It really doesn't say much for trust if she's going to take the wheel of the ship and take it where she wants to go.

[edit on 1-9-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Valhall

Offense resides solely in the offended. Deciding you'll be offended by another's remarks is a decision on your part, it does not equate to the person making the comments performing a punishable act.

...which lets anyone with offensive behavior off the hook. If someone calls your mother all sorts of bad things, you're not going to take offense? Well, with that type of thinking, then you're saying that you choose to take offense to Madness's replies? You can't have it both ways.

Instead of her ad-libbing, she should've written Jesus Christ in her speech when she submitted it for approval. When the school said "no", THEN it is time to question "why"? It really doesn't say much for trust if she's going to take the wheel of the ship and take it where she wants to go.

I agree 100%. I wouldn't go so far as to call her message offensive but I do believe that it was highly inappropriate. Perhaps my Christian upbringing differs from hers but I am of the belief that deceipt is not something that should be encouraged, applauded or rewarded. IMHO it is this type of thing that turns people away from Christianity as it gives the message that hypocrisy is justified if it's to spread the word.


Jemison

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

apparently i said nothing...

Well, I realize that just a small whiff of spirituality really puts your panties in a wad, but no she did not express that her faith is right and no she did not attempt to convert people. She encouraged them to learn more about Jesus and the sacrifice he made.

alright... quote from the speech

"We are all capable of standing firm and expressing our own beliefs, which is why I need to tell you about someone who loves you more than you could ever imagine. He died for you on a cross over 2,000 years ago, yet was resurrected and is living today in heaven. His name is Jesus Christ. If you don't already know him personally I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice he made for you so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with him."

emphasis added

the parts i added emphasis too are the parts where she's attempting to convert people. now, had she said that her belief that jesus died on the cross, loves her, etc etc helped her become a better person, i'd be ok. but the fact that the entire reason she mentioned it was to encourage others to learn about her religion, that's called proselytizing..

And yes, it is a major situation because a citizen has exercised their freedom of speech and now been punished for doing so.

freedom of speech? she's attempting to override the establishment clause, you can't say she's losing a first amendment right to override the first amendment...

Now - where in that statement did I refer to christians or persecution? No where.

you're turning an attempt to override the first amendment into an issue of free speech...

Why don't you go get some counceling for that unhealthy anger you have because quite frankly we're not health experts here and we can't help you - but your militance on anything that has the slightest spiritual factor to it is damned sure getting annoying.

i have no problems with personal spirituality... i was far from angry when i was typing that... and, honestly, this was a superfluous ad hom attack.

as fl said, it's quite clear that there was no anger in my post.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


the parts i added emphasis too are the parts where she's attempting to convert people. now, had she said that her belief that jesus died on the cross, loves her, etc etc helped her become a better person, i'd be ok. but the fact that the entire reason she mentioned it was to encourage others to learn about her religion, that's called proselytizing..

Nope - you are wrong. The part you quoted is where she witnessed the message of Christ's life, sacrifice and gift. That's not an attempt to convert, that's witnessing the Gospel.

And the First Amendment allows her the right to do that.

Heh, come on she was preaching with the aim to convert. Just like the mormon and jehovah dudes who think they have a right to knock on my door at 9am to tell me the 'good news'.

If she just said "my faith has been a great source of comfort during my school days", "I thank Jesus for guiding me", "Thank you Lord for giving me a brain" etc etc etc., then it's a personal thing - between her and her god-dude. Like when an athlete wins a gold medal, I've heard a few thank their lord and similar for allowing their success.

She went beyond that methinks.

[edit on 1-9-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
Heh, come on she was preaching with the aim to convert. Just like the mormon and jehovah dudes who think they have a right to knock on my door at 9am to tell me the 'good news'.

Nothing like it and since her actions were only witnessing, I don't know where you get off acting like you know what her intent was.

If she just said...[blah blah blah]...

She went beyond that methinks.

Yeah, she did - what's your point?

[edit on 9-1-2007 by Valhall]

That when mormons and Jehovah dudes 'witness' on my doorstep they are attempting to convert me. They are not there for the offer of a cup of tea.

That is what she was doing. She used the opportunity of a captive audience to preach her faith in the aim of converting. Her intent was pretty obvious from her words...

I encourage you to find out more about the sacrifice he made for you so that you now have the opportunity to live in eternity with him

I think that's pretty rude. But, hey, each to their own.

Originally posted by melatonin

I think that's pretty rude. But, hey, each to their own.

Right, okay, you think it's rude. Apparently you're offended by it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be covered by the right to free speech. And since you most likely don't care if you spend any time with Jesus, her statements actually have no connection to you at all. You don't want to hang out with the Jesus dude? just ignore her. But she has the right to make a profession of faith.

[edit on 9-1-2007 by Valhall]