Declassified Technology notes Moon Bases UFO technology

There are a number of things that amaze me about this thread including:

When some posters attempt to explain certain simple physics concepts to the OP, who obviously has no technical background and asks nonsensical questions, other posters seem to feel that the the thread is somehow being hijacked or the OP is being attacked.

The leaps in logic being demonstrated in this thread, such as reading technical papers discussing the requirements for and difficulties to be overcome in order to set up a base on the moon and concluding that the U.S. military has bases on the moon.

That a paper presented to the Safety and Flight Equipment Symposium by two Swedes who work for SAAB, the company that builds the JAS 39 Gripen, and found on STINET somehow means that the U.S. is helping to fund the development of the fighter. For anyone who says "But GM owns Saab!", GM owns Saab Automobile and not SAAB-Scania the aircraft manufacturer.

There are more things but I suspect if I write them, it will come off as an outright personal attack.

By the way, did you realize that a person with a pacemaker could be classified as a cyborg by strict definition.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam

Originally posted by mikesingh
Mach number is the ratio of the speed of an aircraft to the speed of sound at SEA LEVEL, at a temperature of 21 °C (70 °F) and under normal atmospheric conditions, which is 760 miles per hour.

Mach number isn't normalized. It's the ratio of the speed of an object to the speed of sound in the surrounding medium, not to STP. It varies with altitude, temp and gas composition.

Tom, I think you've misread what I'd said. Mach number isn't 'normalized'. What I meant was the speed of sound is taken to be 760 mph at sea level at a temperature of 21 °C (70 °F) and under normal atmospheric conditions.

In other words, Mach Number indicates aircraft speed relative to the speed of sound at the same place or medium or conditions. Mach 1.0 at sea level under standard conditions is 760 mph. At 35,000feet it is 663 mph and so on.

Cheers!

"Declassified", huh? Not something I'd take attention to. Like that's giving someone a banana split and getting back a grape.

[edit on 30-8-2007 by Sytima]

Please allow me to put my size 9 foot in my mouth.

I thought Mach number was the relationship of the speed of the aircraft to the speed of sound which is variable with temperature ONLY.

Atmospheric pressure, gas, clouds and the easter bunny are only relevant because they affect the temperature.

True airspeed varies with altitude and temperature for a given Mach number but not the Mach number itself.

reply to post by johnlear


Hmmm... Getting a trifle complicated, what? Ok. Here's some more gen on the subject....

The Mach number depends on the speed of sound in the gas and the speed of sound depends on the type of gas AND the temperature of the gas. The speed of sound varies from planet to planet.
www.grc.nasa.gov...

There's a good calculator (even for Mars!) here...

Cheers!

It sounds like the government knows more about planet biospheres
from first hand experience, or through alien imparted information
doesn't it? A statement like "the speed of sound varies from
planet to planet" reads as if we've been to other planets and
ran sound tests. Interesting.

Originally posted by infiltr8u
reply to post by nightmare_david

 

your post about the super men experiments reminded me of the movie universal soldier, maybe that is where they got the idea for the movie?

Actually now that you say that. The guy who apparently escaped from the experiments said that he and others were brought to this one area in a field one night and were asked to demonstrate their skills. He said one thing involved lifting a car and flipping it over. He said when this was done they brought out some people who had been watching and one of them was the actor Kurt Russell. He said Kurt Russell didn't believe what was going on and thought it was a fake car made of foam or something and when he was showed it was a real car he began to get nervous and he left with the other men he came out with. Don't know if that's true. If any of it's true actually

He said years later the movie Soldier featuring Kurt Russell came out and it's somewhat based on the MK-ULTRA experiments he was a part of. The movie is about a futuristic society, some people are selected at birth to become soldiers and trained in such a manner that they become inhuman killing machines. He said this is what they've been doing for years and years now.

He was talking about how the people who run all this like to watch school sports to pick their subjects at young ages. He said anyone who has kids that play sports for their school to pay attention to the crowds of these games and look for military men. They're always in uniform and never clap they just watch closley for anyone that has good skills at young ages. Once they find good subjects they being the process. He mentioned that they also use a lot of children who already have parents in the military and that a lot of the child kidnappings from the mid 70's up into the 90's were kids that were taken and put into this program. He said to look at the amount of children kidnapped in that period that were never found and you see they were all around the same age, height and weight and were in school sports.

It was an interesting story to read. Is it all true? I don't know, but the stuff this guy talked about would be a damn good movie

[edit on 31-8-2007 by nightmare_david]

Originally posted by erwalker
There are a number of things that amaze me about this thread including:

When some posters attempt to explain certain simple physics concepts to the OP, who obviously has no technical background and asks nonsensical questions, other posters seem to feel that the the thread is somehow being hijacked or the OP is being attacked.

The leaps in logic being demonstrated in this thread, such as reading technical papers discussing the requirements for and difficulties to be overcome in order to set up a base on the moon and concluding that the U.S. military has bases on the moon.

That a paper presented to the Safety and Flight Equipment Symposium by two Swedes who work for SAAB, the company that builds the JAS 39 Gripen, and found on STINET somehow means that the U.S. is helping to fund the development of the fighter. For anyone who says "But GM owns Saab!", GM owns Saab Automobile and not SAAB-Scania the aircraft manufacturer.

There are more things but I suspect if I write them, it will come off as an outright personal attack.

By the way, did you realize that a person with a pacemaker could be classified as a cyborg by strict definition.

The OP was clearly being attacked at the start of this thread. If you can't see that, then you're blind. All the attacking and immature arguing was taking the thread of course. When the first 5 pages are nothing but people arguing about g-forces when the thread is about a site that feature declassified documents, that's taking the thread of course and considered hijacking. None of that arguing was needed. Sorry, but you're wrong there.

About the documents. Did you even bother to read more than a couple or what? Once you get into reading them you can see that some are obviously just theories. While others talk about things - like bases on the moon - in a manner that implies that it's already been done. They're very detailed in describing things. A paper written as a simple theory wouldn't go into the details like that and they wouldn't talk as if they already know how to do this and that if it's a theory. IMHO you didn't read more than a couple pages then came in here to rant.

Obviously you're not interested in any of it so why even bother arguing? If it's a subject you dont' care for then ignore it and move on to another thread. Nobody here forced you to post on this.

As part of a project for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, Sandia National Laboratories is developing and testing the feasibility of using of a cooperative team of robotic sentry vehicles to guard a perimeter and to perform surround and diversion tasks. This paper describes on-going activities in the development of these robotic sentry vehicles. To date, we have developed a robotic perimeter detection system which consists of eight ''Roving All Terrain Lunar Explorer Rover'' (RATLER?trademark!) vehicles, a laptop-based base-station, and several Miniature Intrusion Detection Sensors (MIDS). A radio frequency receiver on each of the RATLER vehicles alerts the sentry vehicles of alarms from the hidden MIDS. When an alarm is received, each vehicle decides whether it should investigate the alarm based on the proximity of itself and the other vehicles to the alarm. As one vehicle attends an alarm, the other vehicles adjust their position around the perimeter to better prepare for another alarm. We have also demonstrated the ability to drive multiple vehicles in formation via tele-operation or by waypoint GPS navigation. This is currently being extended to include mission planning capabilities. At the base-station, the operator can draw on an aerial map the goal regions to be surrounded and the repulsive regions to be avoided. A potential field path planner automatically generates a path from the vehicles' current position to the goal regions while avoiding the repulsive regions and the other vehicles. This path is previewed to the operator before the regions are downloaded to the vehicles. The same potential field path planner resides on the vehicle, except additional repulsive forces from on-board proximity sensors guide the vehicle away from unplanned obstacles.(Author)

Pluto remains the last outer planet as yet unsurveyed by any passing spacecraft. The spacecraft, Pluto Kuiper Express, is part of an approach by NASA to build, smaller, better, cheaper satellites for future space exploration. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory is designing a mission that will conduct reconnaissance of the Pluto/Charon system, determining their composition, atmosphere, and geological characteristics. If successful, the spacecraft will be sent to observe objects in the Kuiper Belt, laying just beyond the boundary of the solar system. To reach Pluto in a reasonable time frame at the lowest cost, several trajectory options must be carefully considered. This thesis presents a comprehensive analysis of a trajectory consisting of a Jupiter Gravity Assist flyby to Pluto. JPL specified two nominal launch dates of November 2003 and December 2004. The daily C3 requirements for these dates were determined by using the JPL programs MIDAS and CATO. This facilitated the creation of nominal launch periods for these two dates. By comparing the launch energy required by the trajectory on each day of the period to the performance capabilities of several medium lift launch vehicles, launch strategies for each day were compiled. These results allow JPL to make the final decision of the most feasible arrangement for launch, and build an alternate launch plan should the primary become unavailable.

When did we send Probes to pluto? I don't remember this being talked about in 2003-04

This report documents the proceedings of a workshop on issues involved in extraterrestrial planet surface activities involving mining and construction. In this second workshop dedicated to the subject, participants formed three discussion groups: (1) Construction and Mining Concepts and Equipment Designs, (2) Design Standards and Codes, and (3) Operations and Performance. Mining and construction tasks were categorized into 11 primary functions. Several equipment types and designs were reviewed for specific surface tasks, and surface and underground mining techniques were reviewed. It was noted that there is a need to develop separate codes and specifications for extraterrestrial construction, although earth-based codes provide a good starting point, and existing Corps of Engineers' Construction criteria and specifications may be a good model on which to base the new codes. Several key operational tasks, and concepts for accomplishing them were developed. One such important principle is to progress from simple to complex. Any lunar base should begin construction with modular, selfcontained units, and gradually progress to more complex construction using locally derived/developed materials. All groups emphasized that mission plans should be formed as concretely as possible, including crew size and mission timetable, to help establish realistic operations and performance criteria. extraterrestrial bases, lunar bases, extraterrestrial construction.

Proceedings of the FY90 Workshop on Extraterrestrial Mining and Construction, August 7 - 9, 1990.

Report on $ they made from ET bases mining WTF!!! 1990 FY = fiscal year

[edit on 31-8-2007 by infamouskiller]

Report Date:
1966

Media Count:
16 Pages(s)

Organization Type:
F - AIR FORCE

Report Number(s):
TC-1005 (TC1005)
TT66-61193 (TT6661193)

Monitor Acronym(s):
TT (TT)

Monitor Series:
66-61193 (6661193)

Descriptors:
*LUNAR BASES, *MOON, AUTOMATIC, ASTRONAUTICS, ASTRONOMY, USSR.ZLUNAR BASES, *MOON, AUTOMATIC, ASTRONAUTICS, ASTRONOMY, USSR.Z

Abstract:
The report gives a brief description of the instrumentation, launching, and soft landing of the Soviet Luna-9 moon station.




[edit on 31-8-2007 by infamouskiller]

Accession Number:
AD0487007

Citation Status:
ACTIVE

Title:
ANNUAL MEETING (2ND) OF THE WORKING GROUP ON EXTRATERRESTRIAL RESOURCES ON OCTOBER 23 - 25, 1963.

Fields and Groups :
030200 - ASTROPHYSICS
220100 - ASTRONAUTICS
Corporate Author:
AIR FORCE MISSILE DEVELOPMENT CENTER HOLLOMAN AFB NM

Report Date:
OCT 1963

Media Count:
91 Pages(s)

Organization Type:
F - AIR FORCE

Report Number(s):
MDC-TR-63-7 (MDCTR637)

Descriptors:
*EXTRATERRESTRIAL BASES, *SYMPOSIA, *NATURAL RESOURCES, EXTRATERRESTRIAL TOPOGRAPHY, LUNAR BASES, FEASIBILITY STUDIES, SPACE BIOLOGY, WATER, LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS, FOOD, ORGANIC MATERIALS, PLANNING, LOGISTICS, PLANETARY ATMOSPHERES.ZEXTRATERRESTRIAL BASES, *SYMPOSIA, *NATURAL RESOURCES, EXTRATERRESTRIAL TOPOGRAPHY, LUNAR BASES, FEASIBILITY STUDIES, SPACE BIOLOGY, WATER, LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS, FOOD, ORGANIC MATERIALS, PLANNING, LOGISTICS, PLANETARY ATMOSPHERES.Z

Identifiers:
CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS, SPACE LOGISTICS.

Abstract:
The Working Group on Extraterrestrial Resources is composed of people from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), the U. S. Air Force, Office of Engineers of the U. S. Army, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and the Rand Corporation. It was organized for the following function: To evaluate the feasibility and usefulness of the employment of extraterrestrial resources with the objective of reducing dependence of lunar and planetary exploration on terrestrial supplies; to advise cognizant agencies on requirements pertinent to these objectives, and to point out the implications affecting these goals.


RAND has been around long before the 70's publicly

There are reports of UFO dating back to 1940 Long before Roswell was even a thought.

I wonder what Project this was called.

Seems Current UFO files are called PROJECT SIGN.

[edit on 31-8-2007 by infamouskiller]

reply to post by mikesingh


Ah, I had read you to say that Mach was relative to the speed of sound at sea level.

In that case, we are in perfect agreement.

Originally posted by infamouskiller
Report Date:
1966

Media Count:
16 Pages(s)

Organization Type:
F - AIR FORCE

Report Number(s):
TC-1005 (TC1005)
TT66-61193 (TT6661193)

Monitor Acronym(s):
TT (TT)

Monitor Series:
66-61193 (6661193)

Descriptors:
*LUNAR BASES, *MOON, AUTOMATIC, ASTRONAUTICS, ASTRONOMY, USSR.ZLUNAR BASES, *MOON, AUTOMATIC, ASTRONAUTICS, ASTRONOMY, USSR.Z

Abstract:
The report gives a brief description of the instrumentation, launching, and soft landing of the Soviet Luna-9 moon station.

news.bbc.co.uk...


[edit on 31-8-2007 by infamouskiller]

[edit on 31-8-2007 by infamouskiller]

reply to post by johnlear


No, the temperature affects the density, so that's definitely a component of it, but pressure does not dictate temperature. It's an independent variable.

It's true that the gas law causes changes in pressure to affect temperature, especially if the volume is confined, but that change in temperature in real life generally radiates away in time. You can have a cylinder of gas at high pressure that's quite cold, for example. When we fill scuba tanks I do it in a water bath in order to absorb the heat, for example.

Gas composition also does not affect the heat. However, several characteristics of the gas change the velocity of sound through the gas. The main ones are the molecular weight of the gas, and the specific heat capacities of the gas at constant pressure and constant temperature.

Gas characteristic variations generally don't come into play in aeronautics but it does have an effect.

I'm not so sure about the Easter bunny's effect on the speed of sound.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
I'm not so sure about the Easter bunny's effect on the speed of sound.

They do it at the speed of sound! Mach + - 1. WHAM BAM. THANK YOU MA'AM !!!

Darn! This is really off topic, what? But a l'l humor in an otherwise 'serious' thread such as this is like a coolant in a hot radiator!!

Cheers!

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam

No, the temperature affects the density, so that's definitely a component of it, but pressure does not dictate temperature. It's an independent variable.

It's true that the gas law causes changes in pressure to affect temperature, especially if the volume is confined, but that change in temperature in real life generally radiates away in time. You can have a cylinder of gas at high pressure that's quite cold, for example. When we fill scuba tanks I do it in a water bath in order to absorb the heat, for example.

Gas composition also does not affect the heat. However, several characteristics of the gas change the velocity of sound through the gas. The main ones are the molecular weight of the gas, and the specific heat capacities of the gas at constant pressure and constant temperature.

Gas characteristic variations generally don't come into play in aeronautics but it does have an effect.

I'm not so sure about the Easter bunny's effect on the speed of sound.

Thanks Tom. I appreciate the time you took to explain this to me. I am just happy that I don't have to actually understand it or explain it to someone else or take a test on it.

If I do ever have to know this stuff I hope I can count on you as my 'Research Associate'. A Research Associate is a guy who explains things to the guy who is running the project who generally can't be bothered with the facts or details. For instance, Zorgon is my 'Research Associate' for the moon stuff. Thanks again.

Originally posted by carewemustA statement like "the speed of sound varies from
planet to planet" reads as if we've been to other planets and
ran sound tests. Interesting.

No, we know what the speed of sound depends on, and those variables will differ from planet to planet.

John's right in a sense, for example, in a perfect world pressure wouldn't matter to the speed of sound, temperature IS the primary variable. So temperatures that are a lot lower or higher than on Earth changes the speed of sound.

But air isn't an ideal gas, so pressure changes (especially gradients) come in as a correction factor. Big pressure changes in non-ideal gases change the speed of sound too.

The gas composition changes the speed of sound, because every gas mix has different Cv, Cp and M values. So if it's really humid, or really dry on Earth, the water vapor cranks in as a correction factor.

On Mars, the gas mix is REALLY different. On Bluptarg-3, it might be all methane. Or mostly ammonia. In which case, again, the speed of sound will change.