US friendly fire kills British soldiers in Afghanistan

Originally posted by Knights
I was aware individuals in America raised money, did the US Governement? Please give me a source.

Did I say a government?
Many Irish-American senators support the republican cause, Ted Kennedy is an example.

Yes thats true- Somehow I can't work out why France would keep their team in Argentina setting up the missles? Even rumoured to have stayed during the war setting up the missles systems?

Key word there, rumoured.

So lets end the pro-UKIP statement and get back to the subject at hand shall we?

[edit on 26-8-2007 by infinite]

reply to post by infinite


Whilst not being a believer in putting blind faith in anything, I think we have to just wait and see.
If deemed necessary then we should request personal evidence from the pilots.
If this is denied then the US will have reneged on their promise to co-operate fully.

History suggests that the US will deny any request, let's hope they have learnt from history and allow it.

Originally posted by infinite
Did I say a government?

It seems to be getting slightly tit-for-tat here. Your last post on face value didn't suggest the US Government, the context in which you used it does (IMO) seem to suggest the US Government was funding the IRA. Your quote from the previous post:

France sided with Britain during the Falkands and gave us information on Argentina military equipment.

Plus, don't recall the French funding the IRA...

So lets end the pro-UKIP statement and get back to the subject at hand shall we?

This is relevant to the thread. US/UK relations are key here- discussing the stance toward the US following such incidents wouldn't derail the topic.

I have to add I have noticed your pro EU stance in several threads- perhaps we should end the pro-Brussels spiel.



[edit on 26-8-2007 by Knights]

reply to post by stumason



That is not what the other article posted says (about Afganistan with British Forces), so if you have a problem with the statement take it up with the british media they are the ones who said it. I for one do not know how many there were, but feel free to prove there were more then one since you are the one claiming there were more not me



As you can see even that has not been confirmed yet it is suspected





[edit on 8/26/2007 by shots]

Originally posted by rogue1
Well at least provide some examples if you're goiing to make these statements. I am not aware of any others and certainly none involving the loss of Coalition lives.

Then perhaps one should pay closer attention the the news. Certainly one should check the facts before making categorical statements.

2002 - American F-16 pilot dropped a 500 lb (228 kg) bomb on Canadian soldiers performing a live-fire exercise, killing four and injuring another 8 in the Tarnak Farm incident.

2004 - Pat Tillman, famous American football player and friendly fire victim in Afghanistan.

2006 - During Operation Medusa, two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolt IIs strafed their own NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, killing Canadian Private Mark Anthony Graham, and seriously wounding five others when soldiers were trying to seize a Taliban stronghold along the Arghandab River.

2006- A U.S. machine gunner accidentally shot (from behind) and killed Canadian Pvt. Robert Costall and Vermont National Guard Sgt. John Thomas near Kandahar, in Afghanistan.

2007 - U.S. forces kill seven Afghan police officers.

2007- One of a pair USAF F-15s called in to support British ground forces in Afganistan dropped a bomb on those forces, killing three soldiers of the 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment, and injuring two others.

Source

It would seem that Canadians bear the brunt of US FF incidents in Afghanistan.

Originally posted by stumason
Then perhaps one should pay closer attention the the news. Certainly one should check the facts before making categorical statements.

Cute Stumason real cute the statement I made refered to Briisih forces alone so you loose then lump them all together to make it look like you are right. Pathedic move:shk:

You said, and I quote:

originally posted by shots
Either he is ignorant or the story you posted earlier was in error that stated there have only been two FF incidents in Afganistan and this was the second and the first was Suspected so where is he getting this time and time again BS?

Where, exactly, do you qualify your statement as to being only British FF incidents? Unless of course you were using invisible ink when you wrote that? That is the comment I originally responded too.

You friend rogue, who questioned me also, stated that he didn't believe there were more than 2 incidents involving coalition forces, which is also wrong. There have been several incidents in Afghanistan alone.

You may find it cute or pathetic, don't really care to be honest. You'll still argue the toss with me because that's what your like.

[edit on 26/8/07 by stumason]

reply to post by stumason


I qualified it in two places the 2nd time was here and the first time was here which had you looked real close was directly below this quote you just posted

originally posted by shots
Either he is ignorant or the story you posted earlier was in error that stated there have only been two FF incidents in Afganistan and this was the second and the first was Suspected so where is he getting this time and time again BS?

[edit on 8/26/2007 by shots]

The father off one of those soldiers killed, spoke to the BBC:

The father of a British soldier killed by US "friendly fire" in Afghanistan has said he cannot understand how somebody "got it so wrong". In an exclusive BBC interview, John Foster demanded a full investigation into the death of his 19-year-old son.

Lets hope his plea does not fall on deaf ears. Do the appropiate thing, not hiding anything. Provide 100% evidence of what actually happenned. Until there is, the blame is going to continue.

Source

Oh the US will cooperate and provide evidence, however we will also conduct an internal investigation of our own. All US military personnel are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), if they are found guilty by the US military they will be punished. However if they are cleared under the UCMJ we will not subject our personnel to further trial under foreign courts. We do not recognize the ICC for this very reason and we will not extradite our soldiers to be held aboard. This is a long and established policy, we hold our own people accountable.

It's really starting to get on my t1ts here, the way that people are using this tragic event as an excuse for their own petty squabbles.

Get a grip. Three soldiers died in tragic circumstances, two were very seriously injured. Stop turning this into another petty US vs the rest of the world argument.

I don't care about who said what about how many incidents there have been or who was involved. The important thing is that young soldiers have been killed in a serious accident, so how are we going to prevent this happening again? How are we going to sort out more effective IFF capabilities?

Half the people on this forum haven't contributed a fraction to their country that these lads have, so stop p1ssing on their graves for the sake of a childish argument.

[/rant]

Remedies:

1)
All ground forces calling for CAS should be held accountable for the linear distances between them and their targets.
If its 200 meters and we have experienced CEPs > 200m due to a number of reasons including pilot/FAC error, then we should introduce a use-at-own-risk disclaimer for all CAS called in at ranges equal to or lesser than that.
200 meters is just a dummy figure I am using to make my point.
Obviously there is a actual figure that should be arrived upon.

2)
I do not know if the munitions were LGBs or iron bombs but CAS fire (esp in areas where friendlies are present) should be restricted to guided munitions only. That excludes strafing gun fire as well. Again these munitions can be authorised only beyond a pre-decided safe distance between friendlies and targets.
Note that the actual distance between friendlies and targets should be responsibly provided by the personnel calling in the CAS.
This reported distance should be used to authorise the 'type' of fire to be used by the CAS.
Similarly the very fact that they are calling in CAS should mean that they are beyond the CEP(again this includes human/technical maladies) of any CAS fire.

3) If it is a MAJOR irritant(and obviously it doesn't seem to from the official British standpoint) that USAF CAS is unreliable, then the British should refrain from calling USAF CAS and only call RAF CAS. That would obviously require a drastic increase in Harrier jets in Afghanistan and th possible inclusion of new RAF fixed wing a/c types.
Personally, I doubt this is going to happen; I doubt the MoD budget allows it.

Accountability in coalition forces is always a gray area. One cannot expect a country to hand over its military officials for trial by foreign courts. It just doesn't happen. The converse should not be expected as well.

If the above are in place then the occurence of blue-on-blue will drastically reduce IMHO. Also if blue on blue does occur after these safeguards are in place, then it will be easier to determine the fault:

-Either the safety distance reported was incorrect/not updated
-or the pilot used the wrong munitions at the wrong time.

total accountability.

Get a grip. Three soldiers died in tragic circumstances, two were very seriously injured. Stop turning this into another petty US vs the rest of the world argument.

Those soldiers died as a result of someone not doing their job properly. So you get a grip already. And it is not petty how many more troops are going to be killed as a result of friendly fire before something is done about it. And another thing would like to see you saying what you have said to the father of one of those soldiers killed. I really do not think his
responce would be nice. Or say it to those families whom, the justice system has failed.

so how are we going to prevent this happening again?

Easy pull them out off both Iraq and Afghanistan completely.

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
Easy pull them out off both Iraq and Afghanistan completely.

Iraq yes, Afghanistan no.

We have support from the native population in Afghanistan and we should help them.

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone

Get a grip. Three soldiers died in tragic circumstances, two were very seriously injured. Stop turning this into another petty US vs the rest of the world argument.

Those soldiers died as a result of someone not doing their job properly. So you get a grip already. And it is not petty how many more troops are going to be killed as a result of friendly fire before something is done about it. And another thing would like to see you saying what you have said to the father of one of those soldiers killed. I really do not think his
responce would be nice. Or say it to those families whom, the justice system has failed.

Yes, someone b@llsed up. However too many posters have completely ignored the fact that people have died here and are simply throwing around anti-war/anti-american sentiments that have no relation to the situation at hand.

Don't try lecturing me about how people react to the deaths of friends and family in combat. I'm in my 17th year in the Army. I was stagging on the main gate when many of the posters were on Cow & Gate. I've carried enough coffins and seen enough families crying over graves to know that throwing blame around achieves nothing. What does help is trying to prevent it happening again.

so how are we going to prevent this happening again?

Easy pull them out off both Iraq and Afghanistan completely.

Oh yea. Let's not go to war - people might get killed .

[edit on 27-8-2007 by PaddyInf]

Originally posted by PaddyInf
However too many posters have completely ignored the fact that people have died here and are simply throwing around anti-war/anti-american sentiments that have no relation to the situation at hand.

I haven't ignored the fact people have died.

I'm not throwing anything around. It's an open secret on ATS that I am extremely pro-European and I'm not too keen on the current US administration.

At least I'm honest about it.

Don't try lecturing me about how people react to the deaths of friends and family in combat. I'm in my 17th year in the Army.

So was my Dad and numerous members of my family.
I fail to see your point.

Don't try lecturing me about how people react to the deaths of friends and family in combat.

And dont you dare come on here and try lecturing me either. Works both ways.

I for one is with the father of the soldier that was killed. No cover ups at all, like they have done in the past where families have been failed on seeking justice.

Originally posted by infinite
I haven't ignored the fact people have died.

I'm not throwing anything around. It's an open secret on ATS that I am extremely pro-European and I'm not too keen on the current US administration.

At least I'm honest about it.

What makes you think that my comments were aimed at you? My comments were about the general direction that the thread is heading, i.e. away from the deaths of the soldiers. They were not aimed at individuals.

Don't try lecturing me about how people react to the deaths of friends and family in combat. I'm in my 17th year in the Army.

So was my Dad and numerous members of my family.
I fail to see your point.

Read the rest of the post (which may I add was also not aimed at you was in direct response to another member). My point was that the previous poster was implying in a very patronising manner that I had no idea about the realities of the situation. I was stating my background in order to make the point that he was mistaken.

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
And dont you dare come on here and try lecturing me either. Works both ways.

I for one is with the father of the soldier that was killed. No cover ups at all, like they have done in the past where families have been failed on seeking justice.

I have no intention of lecturing you. I do take offence when someone implies that I have no idea of the consequences of a job that I have done for the majority of my adult life and that has had a direct impact on my family.

I am very sorry for your loss. My brother lost both his legs in an IDF attack in Iraq. I lost 2 good friends in Afghanistan. My brother is still glad we do what we do. I'm still proud of my job. I don't want to start a flame war that detracts from the sad events that are the topic of this thread.

[edit on 27-8-2007 by PaddyInf]

CAS at close quarters is no joke!
Mistakes can be made and they sure as hell can be made by guys who call in the CAS in the first place.
Nobody's saying that it happened this time or any other time, but its a possbility.

It seems like people are determined to have their pound of flesh on this thread.
Why not look at solutions that AVOID the problem in the future instead of playing a blame game.
If you guys have a major issue with USAF CAS, call in your own CAS!
Or put proper procedures in place for safe and accurate coalition CAS.

A witch hunt will may weed out the guilty but it will NOT address the recurring problem in general.
And that is what is required. A solution to the recurring problem. Not some unproductive finger-pointing from both sides!

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
Easy pull them out off both Iraq and Afghanistan completely.

Iraq yes, Afghanistan no.

We have support from the native population in Afghanistan and we should help them.

So Afghanistan is the 'right war' and Iraq is the 'wrong war'?

Its all wrong I tell you!