Take the THEORY out of Conspiracy and stick to the FACTS.

Every body we pull out of the matrix is a soldier for Zion.

The Definition Of Insanity

I'm going to put this in my signature today, because it describes nearly six years of pointless 9/11 bickering perfectly...

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." -- Albert Einstein

Is it wrong to analyze what happened on 9/11? Certainly not.

Is it wrong to share opinions about what happened on 9/11? Certainly not.

Is it wrong to keep steering the discussion away from who actually did it? Definitely.

Driven To Distraction

Whatever your personal theories on 9/11 may be, good for you. We're all entitled to our opinions, and rightly so.

But what I'm seeing from the so-called "Truth Movement" amounts to nothing less than complicity with mass murder.

The "Movement" is away from anything that might actually result in the exposure, trial and punishment of those who are truly responsible for the 9/11 atrocities.

And just who is responsible? I don't know.

That's precisely my point. We can talk about squibs, free-fall, micro-nukes, missiles and holograms forever and accomplish... what?

Conspiracy Fact

The mass murders of 9/11 are a genuine conspiracy.

Not the bogus connotation assigned by a false popular belief that questioning the government is "wrong" or "crazy", but a genuine criminal conspiracy as defined by law.

To date, those truly responsible for planning and executing the crime of murdering 2,974 people on 9/11 have not been caught or put on trial.

The FBI tells us it was Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Great. But since when has it ever been appropriate in the United States to convict someone without a trial?

Where is a public judicial examination of the entirety of the evidence?

Should we be content with the dubious, scripted and jarringly incomplete conclusions of a an insider-stacked "blue ribbon commission"? Or the bizarre, disjointed and highly suspicious proceedings surrounding Zacarias Moussaoui?

Is that supposed to represent justice?

Why is it now considered "crazy" to question the government about 9/11?

The founders of the United States made it crystal clear that a government which refuses to answer to the people is illegitimate, so why is such behavior now considered acceptable under the guise of "fighting terrorism"?

A Need-To-Know Basis

My position on 9/11 is quite simple: I want to know who was really responsible, and I want them punished.

That can only be accomplished by identifying and exposing the real 9/11 conspirators, whoever they might be.

Circular arguments and bogus claims that bring discredit to honest inquiries and give officials an excuse to dismiss legitimate demands for accountability are utterly irrelevant to this goal and, to the extent they cloud the truth, counterproductive.

Needless to say, that bothers me. A lot.

Mission Accomplished

Is any one theory to blame for covering the tracks of the 9/11 conspirators? No. After all, one of them is probably correct.

Neither is there anything wrong with freely speculating about what actually happened.

Open discussion of all events such as these is a right I demand as a person, and protect to the best of my ability as a moderator on ATS.

But after almost six years of government hand-waving, dissembling and bald-faced lying about 9/11, and over three years of witnessing what seems to be an ongoing and deliberate campaign of derailing intelligent discussion of 9/11 on ATS, I've had enough.

The absurd, pathetic spectacle known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" is not only failing to move in a direction that would accomplish the goal of uncovering the truth, it is actually making the truth harder to find.

By bringing discredit to the very idea of questioning the official government story, the "Movement" is -- whether intentionally or unintentionally -- serving only to hide the tracks of mass murderers.

Has that been the plan all along? I don't know.

The truth remains hidden, and justice for the victims of 9/11 remains unserved.

Intentional or not, Mission Accomplished.

Geez, I'm a little surprised that no one has come to the conclusion that after six years of nothing....perhaps there is no government conspiracy behind 9/11? Is this at all a possibility to consider? After six years, there's no indisputable evidence, there is nothing that could stand up in a court of law, there is nothing that will make the world's scientists go "hmmm..."

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to try and insult anyone here. I enjoy reading about and researching conspiracies myself (thus, my reason for being on this forum). I have little to no faith in our government, so my reasons for not believing in the various 9/11 conspiracies don't lie there.

But the "Truth Movement" just doesn't work correctly. It works backwards. People have arrived at a conclusion (the government did it) and are constantly and continually revising and altering how they did it, to fit to their conclusion. I've even seen people say quite a few times in this forum that they don't care how or why it was done, they just know it was done by the government, period. That's some pretty scary thinking, in my opinion.

This thread is also a good example of double standards between people who believe the 'official' version and those that don't. The aim of this thread is to find one critical piece of evidence that will open an average person's mind up to the idea that it was a government conspiracy. The logic being that if you can throw a wrench into the official story, that person will have to alter their conclusion. Why? Because people come to conclusions based on evidence and if the evidence is wrong or questionable, they must come to a different conclusion. I think we can all agree that was the purpose of this thread.

However, the '9/11 Truth Movement" is immune to this type of thinking. If I throw a wrench into the evidence of a government conspiracy, you would think that person would change their conclusion (as illustrated above). This is not the case. The '9/11 Truther' will hold the same conclusion but attempt to find difference evidence to support it.

Hopefully those last two paragraphs make sense. Because of this, I almost find it to be an admission that the 'official story' takes evidence, looks at it, and arrives at a conclusion while the 'truthers' have a conclusion and then scramble to find evidence to support it.

This is also why there are so many different conspiracy theories. One theory is shot down, so another theory is made to fit the pre-determined conclusion. Then that one is shot down, so another theory is made and so on.

So, my advice (from someone who doesn't believe in a government conspiracy) is to embrace the path of logical thought and to 'think in the right direction'. Look at all the evidence you have. Confirm your evidence from multiple sources (not sources that are biased for or against a government conspiracy) as this particular sub forum seems to be a breeding ground for inaccuracy paraded as 'fact'. Then, draw a conclusion from your evidence. Be open minded that the conclusion may not fit what you want it to fit.

I'll throw another one out there for you. The government conspiracy theory that I am willing to accept is that they knew of the attacks and allowed them to happen. The best way for the government to make it look like terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into multiple buildings is to let terrorists hijack planes and fly them into multiple buildings. No need for global hawks, demolitions, lasers, micro nukes, holograms, DEWs, etc., and you get the exact same result with much less room for error. I think this should be the number one approach (but only if their is evidence that points toward it).

Thanks for letting me have my say.

Originally posted by MajicThe "Movement" is away from anything that might actually result in the exposure, trial and punishment of those who are truly responsible for the 9/11 atrocities.

And just who is responsible? I don't know.

To date, those truly responsible for planning and executing the crime of murdering 2,974 people on 9/11 have not been caught or put on trial.

By bringing discredit to the very idea of questioning the official government story, the "Movement" is -- whether intentionally or unintentionally -- serving only to hide the tracks of mass murderers.

I wish I had more time to address all the protests in this recent series of posts. But I have to keep it short. Those who criticize “truthers” as obstacles to finding the “mass murderers” of 3,000 U.S. citizens are forgetting one small detail. We went to war because of 9-11 and have killed hundreds of thousands because of it.

Killing people has always been a “stretch” ethically and not to mention from a Christian religious turn-the-other-cheek perspective. So at the very least before one decides to put a cap in “the bad guy’s head”, might not it be best to make darn good and sure that one has indeed found the actual culprit? If there were no planes, then there were no “terrorists”. But that’s outlandish conspiracy theory. At least two of the above posters believe in 9-11 related “terrorism”. But none of the “highjackers” were Iraqi. Most were Saudi. Still we didn’t care. We went after Iraq because we wanted to, and had so all along. Oops, that was speculative too, sorry

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods

Obstacle Course

Originally posted by Wizard_In_The_Woods
Those who criticize “truthers” as obstacles to finding the “mass murderers” of 3,000 U.S. citizens are forgetting one small detail. We went to war because of 9-11 and have killed hundreds of thousands because of it.

There are two problems with these statements:

1. How do you know who's "forgetting" what? Are you a mind-reader?

2. Saying "we went to war because of 9-11" is a gross oversimplification of what has actually happened. It's quite arguable that 9/11 served as a pretext for war, but not at all established that is was the actual reason.

My advice: try not to put words in the mouths of others. It's disingenuous and self-discrediting.

More importantly, it's an example of what the discussion needs less of.

I realize I'm making a broad characterization when I criticize the "9/11 Truth Movement". That's quite intentional.

I challenge anyone and everyone who identifies themselves as "9/11 Truthers" to abandon folly, fantasy and falsehood, and instead focus on the most important "f-word" of all.

Facts.

Originally posted by Majic
I challenge anyone and everyone who identifies themselves as "9/11 Truthers" to abandon folly, fantasy and falsehood, and instead focus on the most important "f-word" of all.
Facts.

Excuse me for not choosing my words carefully enough. I’ll rephrase. Those who criticize truthers as counter-productive to finding the mass murderers of 3,000 U.S. citizens are ‘ignoring/not understanding/not recognizing/are in denial’ of one small detail.

We were only able to go to war in the Middle East because of 9-11 and have killed hundreds of thousands in the process. Without 9-11 the American public would have never tolerated our involvement in Iraq. No we cannot prove that absolutely. We cannot ‘rewind’ history and replay different scenarios. So if anyone wants to believe 9-11 wasn’t the impetus for war that’s fine. But I’m not the only one saying that it is (the reason for war). The president himself says it over and over again. He stresses ad infinitum that 9-11 has necessitated the “war on terror” and compared its importance to that of WWII.

Facts? Great. Let’s mention some. We are at war at this very moment. That’s a fact, isn’t it? And wouldn’t it be nice to know if we’ve been fighting/clobbering/killing the ‘right’ people, i.e. people who did us harm? I for one would like to know if we’re still the good guys or have morphed into imperialist storm troopers.

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods

9-11

Was seemingly produced by a conglomerate of different willing corporations and money players in order to facilitate a collective goal.
Also known as "The Process". They spend years acting and being like americans, start businesses, take over and eventually buy power. They put a perfect rogue patsy that connects it all so they can move with minimal disruption in command.

The goal of 9-11. Seize the world using the disguise of freedom. But for what you ask. Well thats an unbelievable scenario which former presidents themselves have eluded to. And what many here at ATS understand as alien beings.

There are many different races on this planet and in space. Some are good, some are not. Aliester Crowley known for his insane love for magik and ritual. Has been stigmatized as a portal opener, as a ritual he did was left unfinished. He and his 3rd wife i believe, the last 2 committed suicide, coincidentally. They were in a pyramid and having sex when she started becoming possessed, saying that they have offended the pharoah who rests there. Eventually according to the story, he is also communicated to, by a creature with an alien looking head, Aiwaz

He then wrote the book of the Law which had the pentagram on the front, and a religion was started. His religion.

These portal openers are everywhere, and have the ablitiy to invite not so nice creatures into this aspect of time/space. Now recall for me the flashing helicopter in the smoke. That was no helicopter flashing, it was a portal opening and closing..aka conduit. masked by smoke, a ship jumped through and cloaked, then flew off to its predetermined destination.

How do I say such nonsense you ask? Heres my evidences:

www.youtube.com...
the 911 stargate

altreligion.about.com...
The Book of Thoth

www.youtube.com...
The Boleskine House

www.youtube.com...
THe london eye and stargate

www.youtube.com...
The 911 Pyramid Mega-Ritual

www.youtube.com...
The NASA stargate, pentagon ritual

www.youtube.com...
UFO over florida

www.youtube.com...
Lake erie ufos

www.youtube.com...
China UFO..Comapre this to the helicopter flash you see in the smoke on 9-11

911eyewitness.com...

www.bushisantichrist.com...

www.thefreedictionary.com...
crowley was interested in 77, is this what it means?















[edit on 24-8-2007 by mastermind77]

One Small Detail

Originally posted by Wizard_In_The_Woods
Excuse me for not choosing my words carefully enough. I’ll rephrase. Those who criticize truthers as counter-productive to finding the mass murderers of 3,000 U.S. citizens are ‘ignoring/not understanding/not recognizing/are in denial’ of one small detail.

I'm criticizing the "Truth Movement" for burying facts in a barrage of absurd claims and thereby marginalizing by association everyone who has a genuine interest in uncovering the truth about 9/11.

That has absolutely nothing to do with speculation about possible government motives surrounding 9/11.

See this for an explanation of why it's wrong to tie these two together.

If you think my criticism of the "Truth Movement" is unjustified, that's fine.

I know I'm painting with a very broad brush when I do this. I'm very much aware that many "9/11 Truthers" sincerely want to uncover the truth and are trying not to cloud the discussion with nonsense.

And to those of you do, my hat is off to you and I encourage you to do your best to find the truth about 9/11.

The "Movement" as a whole, however, simply has no credibility whatsoever, and while it's convenient to point fingers elsewhere, I believe the movement's worst enemy is the movement itself.

The solution is for "Truthers" to take a genuine interest in truth and stop pushing false claims, bogus theories and patent lies as "truth".

As for my opinions on other subjects related to 9/11, you don't have to speculate about them. They're written right here for you and everyone to read in these and over 12,000 posts to these forums (you're welcome to start here if you're curious).

Please respect my right to express my opinions by not posting false claims about them.

Originally posted by Majic

The "Movement" as a whole, however, simply has no credibility whatsoever, and while it's convenient to point fingers elsewhere, I believe the movement's worst enemy is the movement itself.

The solution is for "Truthers" to take a genuine interest in truth and stop pushing false claims, bogus theories and patent lies as "truth".

Isn’t that what truthers have been doing all along, taking a genuine interest in the truth?

A decision to go to war was based on -9-11. It’s called the “war on terror”. That headline is a daily staple on our news channels. Well, Fox news anyways. For those who haven’t noticed, the “war on terror” is being used to validate governmental policies, foreign and domestic.

Therefore we do not have the luxury of free time to debate. Practically our thoughts won’t make a difference. People discussing 9-11 are a minuscule minority. ATS claims to be one of the biggest internet forums, and how many active posters do we have on 9-11 topics, no more than a hundred, right?
So, while realistically nothing we do or say will matter, morally we can choose ‘sides’. The key question being should we fight a “war on terror” or shouldn’t we? And saying “I don’t know” is a big fat ‘yes’ vote. Because we already are (at war).

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods

The only factual proof we will ever get is the money trail, follow the money and everything will become clear.

Theories are just that THEORIES... "truthers" have a serious problem in thinking that theory = fact, if you call them out, they start yelling and can never back up anything with any real proof, they just spit out more THEORIES...

"truthers" aren't interested in proving "the truth" they are interested in proving "there truth"


This is why the general populace will never listen to "truthers".


[edit on 25-8-2007 by C0le]

reply to post by C0le


The general populace will never listen to truthers because they don’t give a rip (about 9-11). People just want to live their lives and have fun! As long as they can fuel up their SUV’s to drive to church, temple or mosque they’re happy. They don’t want to know the dirty details of what’s being done to make that happen.

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods

"truthers" aren't interested in proving "the truth" they are interested in proving "there truth"


This is why the general populace will never listen to "truthers".

sounds like a stereotype to me.

I just want the government to prove 'their truth', which 'they' have been unable to do sar far.

I would say there are 3 factions in this 'war'. Truthers, anti Truthers, and people who understand that the official reports are incomplete at best.

The general populace will never listen to truthers because they don’t give a rip (about 9-11).

Reason don't listen to "truthers" is because most people consider them
tin foil wearing loons....

For example the no planers - I can give you 50 co-workers who were
several floors above me at work on Jersey side watching as plane
flew into the buildings. My self watched buildings burn and collapse
from top floor of our building. On top of that have others babbling about nukes in the basement, death beams from outer space and more bizarre
"theories".

If were really concerned with "truth" would have to assemble the facts
in a logical and consistent manner not yelling and screaming about
conspiracies.

reply to post by thedman


50 co-workers, eh? But of course, YOU yourself didn’t see a plane fly into WTC-2. That comes as no surprise. No one ever seems to have seen the actual aircraft impacts on 9-11. It’s always the same old story about “knowing” some people who did.

Of course you saw the buildings ‘burn’, or more precisely, belch smoke, and then witnessed their collapse. Because those things really did indeed happen.

And anyone with half a heart who even half-heartedly considers the ‘facts’ will have no choice but to yell and scream.

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods

reply to post by SimiusDei


"Take the THEORY out of Conspiracy and stick to the FACTS"


Yes sir!

That is absolutely what we need to do and why people need to start paying more attention to the work of CIT and others who are actually investigating and turning up hard evidence.

There is no "theory" to the north side claim.

It is strictly hard evidence and it proves 9/11 was a military deception.

What I find mindboggling is how long we went listening to folklore about missiles and global hawks, with 0 evidence for it.

I bug out on how long people clamored for the Citgo video and guessed about what Jose Velazquez saw or experienced. Or how often did we have to hear, "Has anybody spoke with the employees who watched the hotel video 'in horror'?"

And yet, here comes CIT speaking directly with witnesses RIGHT AT THE CITGO who tell you what they saw while BLOWING THE OFFICIAL STORY OUT OF THE WATER and yet somehow people still go right back to their "theories" and "beliefs", like there is no such thing as research or investigating.

Some people have no problem dismissing real evidence and call it a "theory", in favor of their ingrained "beliefs".

It's almost like people don't want this to be solved and much prefer the intrigue and excitement of theorizing about it.

Conspiracies are neat and fun.

Originally posted by Speakeasy1981
Geez, I'm a little surprised that no one has come to the conclusion that after six years of nothing....perhaps there is no government conspiracy behind 9/11? Is this at all a possibility to consider? After six years, there's no indisputable evidence, there is nothing that could stand up in a court of law, there is nothing that will make the world's scientists go "hmmm..."

I see the physics of 9/11 as being an above average piece of evidence that there is a coverup.


Jasn

First off, applause to everyone participating in this thread, the posts are thought-provoking and at times quite eloquent.

Jasn,

you're absolutely right in your OP, the physics of the WTC destruction is the crucial evidence to unlocking 9/11, but I frankly despair that even if presented with the mastery of a script written by Einstein and presented by Spielberg, that this would persuade many or have any real positive impact. I have seen over and again on these boards that the most basic logic and physical principles can be argued away and brushed aside. I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again here, understanding the destruction of the WTC requires a certain level of critical, abstract thought and knowledge of basic physics that sadly is beyond many.

I have sat beside a perfectly normal adult who asked me 30,000+ feet over the Atlantic if I wouldn't mind opening the window to get some fresh air, and another who, when told a chandelier was an 18th century antique, then asked if it was originally electrified. Such is humanity, and this ignorance works in favor of acceptance of the status quo regarding 9/11.

On a personal note, I was deeply involved on this board on these issues, particularly the mechanism of the collapse of the towers, since becoming a member, but rarely post on 9/11 anymore because I've seen that knowledge of 9/11 has reached its limits and debate has become a virtual kabuki theatre, and as SO pointed out, barring any unforeseen revelation, the truth movement is hopelessly divided and ineffectual.

Unfortunately, six years on, I find little hope that 9/11 will ever be re-examined in the proper framework, and I doubt even more that one could be created, in light of the deliberate, horrific unraveling and abasement of our governmental institutions. The critical moment has passed, and in very profound ways, 9/11 is a doppleganger of the Iraq war that it enabled--a false victory declared, then a slow, inevitable descent into quagmire, fueled by fundamental lies and unspoken agendas that are carried out without the least care for morality or negative consequences. Bulling your way forward, the imperialistic hubris of "making your own reality."

The lasting legacy of 9/11 will doubtless be an increasing alienation of the populace from its governmental institutions. Whatever your beliefs about 9/11--LIHOP, MIHOP, or good ole govt'l incompetence on a staggering scale--none of them give comfort for the future of this nation. The shock of 9/11 and its legacy is so similar to the JFK assassination, as the governmental cover-up spread disillusion and mistrust among so many. And advanced the appalling agenda of the ruthless few.