Take the THEORY out of Conspiracy and stick to the FACTS.

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but in my time in the 9/11 "truther" camp, I've become more than a bit agitated that so little has been accomplished.

Increasingly, I'm becoming convinced that certain members of the "truth movement" are worrying more about getting themselves in documentaries and on the radio (and limited coverage on CNN) than about really getting the FACT that 9/11 was a dirty operation in one way or the other (LIHOP or MIHOP...it's a white wash and a lie either way and necks need to be cracked over it).

I think it's about time that we truthers band together and say to hell with the "theories" for the time being. When I say "theory", I'm talking about the Pod, The holo-planes, what REALLY hit the pentagon and other things that we simply CANNOT prove to the American public at the time because they American public is so apathetic at this point that it's gonna take some HARD facts to wake them up.

Am I the only one that thinks we need to get down to some grassroots and go after the 100% proof that we need to wake the public up?

I think our first step is to focus all of our attention on PROVING that there is no way those planes brought down the towers the way we were told they did. The way that we prove this is PHYSICS. We need to get the American public to wake up and realize that there is NO WAY PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE those towers collapsed as fluidly and quickly as they did as the result of a structural failure and a pancake collapse. 2 110 story buildings falling at near the rate of freefall in a vacuum without some assistance? NO WAY!!! We need to get the American public thinking again!!! Sure those 15 or so stories that started collapsing first were heavy, but heavy enough to pound the other 95 or so stories below them to little more than DUST? Maybe in Wonderland, but New York City ain't no Wonderland.

I feel the PHYSICS is the KEY to opening the public's eyes. THEN we work on the HOW.

I'm sorry to some of you guys out there, but you aren't gonna reach a whole lot of people by telling them "HEY!! THE PLANES WERE FAKE!!!!". At least not right off the bat because the first thing they are gonna think is, "What the hell is this idiot talking about? I watched it live on CNN". Even if you are right, it's just not the way to wake up the everyday apathetic, government loving American.


But, that's just how I see it.
Jasn

Dear SimiusDei:

Please don’t shoot me!

Everything is relative. Everyone has different thoughts on was and wasn’t feasible on 9-11.
For me, a “no planer”, the absence of planes on 9-11 is the clearest most provable fact of all.

Not a single plane part was found traceable back to the purported flights. Practically all plane parts are numbered. No, not the barf bags. But everything mechanical relating to flying. But not a single part was found. But then again, many believe in alien spaceships. And not a single, teenzie-weenzie alien nut or bolt has ever been found either.


It is theoretically impossible for aluminum aircraft to slice through quarter inch thick steel 14”x14” box beams, spaced densely at only 25 inches apart.

We watch films everyday for entertainment with realistic crashes and explosions. We have been seeing them for the past 60 years or so. They’re called Hollywood movies. But when the mainstream media shows it, well then it has to be real, right? Had 9-11 been a Bruce Willis movie, people would have demanded their money back. Apparently, the special “effects”, the blob-of-a-plane flying into the towers was so crappy that it became credible, or, more likely we were are all too horrified to consider any other possibilities.

Holograms or no holograms, it doesn’t really matter. But there were no planes. The FACTS prove that.

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods

reply to post by Wizard_In_The_Woods



haha wizard, don't worry....I'm not shooting anyone.....though you may want to watch out for Otis over

I'm definitely not part of the "9/11 truth movements" and I have not seen evidence to persuade me that there was an "inside job". (And I request that be read exactly as it is stated.) But I do believe the physical evidence shows that there was more to what brought down the towers than a plane impact and a subsequent fire; especially if you rely on the data given by the NIST (i.e. thieves).

So, I would say welcome! Welcome to what I believe is a reasonable and critically thought out position. To center on what is physically evident, and not allow yourself to be dragged toward theories that seem to be more hinged on personalities and motives than on evidence.

I agree,
theories like PODS, just paint the real movement in bad light.

Its obvious something 'fishy' happened, so lets look at 'earth-like' technologies before we blame 'far-out' idea's.

In my mind, it doesnt matter how it occured, simply that it did occur.
So much intellegence, 22 foreign nations all telling the USA that it was coming..

The government let it happen.

thats enough in my book to prosecute them all.

reply to post by Valhall


Request noted and granted.

(The Overlord grants an audience with the young SimiusDei)

Originally posted by SimiusDei
Perhaps I'm wrong here, but in my time in the 9/11 "truther" camp, I've become more than a bit agitated that so little has been accomplished.

Oh, a great deal has been accomplished...

1) A vast myriad of conflicting, fanciful, inventive, and sometimes laughable theories are permeating the web like no other topic.

2) The "Truthers" are fractured into dozens of cult-like "camps" with splinter groups and off-shoots each religiously believing their theories are correct and everyone else is counter intelligence.

3) The general public detests "9/11 Truthers" and NYC tourists are exposed to legions of black-shirted spittle-spewing activists shouting angry slogans at ground zero.

These are grand accomplishments not to be taken lightly. It tooks years of a continually focused effort to develop 1,987 different theories on the collapse of the World Trade center, and the 918 theories as to what made the hole in the C-Ring of the Pentagon.

---sarcasm mode off---

Now... the sad part is, sarcasm aside, the above rant is true.

Increasingly, I'm becoming convinced that certain members of the "truth movement" are worrying more about getting themselves in documentaries

And when they get on MSM documentaries, they ramble on comparing themselves to how Galileo was jailed for say the world was round. - (embarassing)

I think it's about time that we truthers band together and say to hell with the "theories" for the time being.

Sadly -- and I fear I'll get some flack for this -- I think it's time to abandon the "Truth Movement." There's too much baggage. At one point I thought it was salvageable, but now I don't think so.

I think our first step is to focus all of our attention on PROVING that there is no way those planes brought down the towers the way we were told they did.

I think it's time to give up on considering that aspect of the attacks. If nothing has been proven in very-nearly six years, it's either a dead-end or a dead-heat and neither is going to get anyone anywhere different than where we are now.


My post here outlines where I think the investigation needs to go. Focus on what is known, and follow the leads. If there are verifiable tidbits that lead to discovery of how the towers were felled or what hit the Pentagon, other than what the 9/11 Commission believes, you'll find them be rewinding to the beginning.

Part of that rewind needs to consider that, even in the event Operation Northwoods were to go forward, the plan was to use a minimum of existing assets.




(Astounded by these new revelations, SimiusDei steps forth, reinvigorated in the search for truth, and takes the first step toward changing the world)

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


(In mid step, however, SimiusDei stops as he realizes that he has already changed the world.)

Sadly, I am almost to the point of agreeing with you that the "movement" needs to be abandoned altogether. There just seems to be that last stubborn bit of me that keeps pulling me back everytime I move myself to far more important issues. I know what it is, but it's not the right reason to keep coming back.

(SimiusDei bows ever so slightly to the Overlord. "I wish it were that easy, friend." With a sigh of regret, he turns and walks away.)


Edit: Something about the concept of a "new revelation" just strikes me kind of odd. Hmm. Perhaps it will come to me.



[edit on 23-8-2007 by SimiusDei]

reply to post by SimiusDei


Although I am a firm believer in the official story is bunk, I never post in here, it's way to hostile for me. I just read. And to tell ya, I think this is probably the best idea I have read in this forum. I think that this is the one theory of them all that could be proven 100% AND be believed by the public. I'm not saying that any of the other theories can't and maybe won't be proven, but that the science of the disaster would be much more palettable to the general population than missles, no planes, lasers, etc.. I think most people are programed by what we see on tv, in papers, through marketing to not accept something as incredible as the government could conspire to do this or be complacent enough to let it happen.

But science is something that we are taught from a young age to trust. We use it to explain things to our children from when they first start to ask why the sky is blue or were does the sun go at night. It's taught to us in school. The average person takes what is presented to them at face value and doesn't bother to look to the motives behind things. Science would be the best way to crack this nut, so to speak, and open peoples eyes to the issues surrounding this event, in my opinion anyway. It's something we are taught to trust from when our minds first started to question things.

reply to post by SimiusDei


I agree 1000%, and I have said this many times, some theories must be put aside for the greater good, BUT just for now, after the basic core truth of the matter is revealed that is a false flag Op. by CD was commited, then we can explore the other area's of HOW the staging was rigged.

Divided we fall, united we stand.

Thats why disinfo is doing a great number on the movement.

I suggest the 911 pound gorilla be re-activated and by democrtaic polling
test out all the theories by vote IP tracted of course to prevent repeat voting.
Ask certain question to get 5 core beliefs (Top 5)
For example

1) Was this a False Flag Op? Y/N
2) Was this a controlled Demo? Y/N
3) Did planes fly into the WTC? Y/N
4) Was WTC7 brought down on purpose? Y/N
5) Did a normal passenger plane hit the Pentagon Y/N

This is just a few idea's could be more or less, or different questions but they have to be answered with yes or no.

Once you establish this focus on these and these alone, forget about everthing else FOR NOW.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


I hear that the truth can also get you incarcerated for a lengthy number of years. I'm also sure that it's a bit of a factor in the ongoing disgrace that is our divorce rate.

Wait, did I just hijack my own thread?

Jasn

The discussions about WTC collapse, Pentagon plane no-plane or Flight 93 shot down or heroes on a plane can go on forever. Neither side can prove anything because the information is incomplete. These discussion seem to start and end in the same place no matter how long the discussion is. These discussion are very interesting, but they don't further the cause. They only further the thoughts of someone who already believes something else happened on 9/11.

As for presenting alternate ideas to others, people are turned off when they hear the word conspiracy. It's odd because nearly every crime ever committed was a conspiracy and no matter what you believe about 9/11, it was a conspiracy. Conspiracy has an automatic reaction equal to crazy. However, everyone lends an ear to "cover-up." Put forth the idea there was a cover up because there was an obvious cover-up regarding 9/11, as shown in the film "9-11 Press For Truth" video.google.com... or www.cooperativeresearch.org... Then discuss some other events like Iran-Contra and Mena drug trafficking.

Once you can show someone the was a cover-up, they will then become intrigued and be more receptive to other ideas. Alot of people just don't want to believe their government could have played a role, and you can't make someone do what they don't want to do. This is also odd, because I don't know anyone who thinks that politicians are completely honest. It is understood by everyone that we are lied to. So why do so many people immediately jump on their side when you point a finger at them? You may be an extrememly honest person, but if you say the liars may have had a part in 9/11, you become the dishonest one and the liars become the sane a rational ones. Is this an example of conditioning?

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord Sadly -- and I fear I'll get some flack for this -- I think it's time to abandon the "Truth Movement." There's too much baggage. At one point I thought it was salvageable, but now I don't think so.

Hmm. So it’s the “back to business” as usual approach. The “easy way out”. Let’s just go on with our lives. Because life is good. Anything interesting on television tonight? Well, that’s the attitude 99% of people have. Perhaps that IS the sane approach. Perhaps that IS the healthiest possible mindset. But, and this but is bigger than J-lo’s ass, ignoring the issue/problem won’t make it go away. What happened on 9-11 and why, is all-out significant for the times we live in. If we understand 9-11, we will get an idea of what’s in the future.

You guys already know this. 9-11 happened because we, the United States are strategically commandeering (stealing) the world’s last significant petroleum reserves. As a bonus, we’re only doing this specifically in ways which our closest “ally” approves. And, everyone — e.g. Alex Jones — seems to keep bellyaching about the “New World Order”. Well that’s ridiculous, because that frightening New World Order, well that’s us!! We’re the ones dictating our demands to the rest of the planet. We’re the ones telling the other countries what to do. Not the other way round. The U.N. is OUR tool for crying out loud, how much more obvious can it get?

But of course, all of this is boring. The playoffs are much more exciting. Or dudes, let’s talk about Dulce and Area 51. Now that would be cool!!

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods

[edit on 8/23/2007 by Wizard_In_The_Woods]

Originally posted by SimiusDei
Perhaps I'm wrong here, but in my time in the 9/11 "truther" camp, I've become more than a bit agitated that so little has been accomplished.

I think it's about time that we truthers band together and say to hell with the "theories" for the time being. When I say "theory", I'm talking about the Pod, The holo-planes, what REALLY hit the pentagon and other things that we simply CANNOT prove to the American public at the time because they American public is so apathetic at this point that it's gonna take some HARD facts to wake them up.

Am I the only one that thinks we need to get down to some grassroots and go after the 100% proof that we need to wake the public up?

I think our first step is to focus all of our attention on PROVING that there is no way those planes brought down the towers the way we were told they did. The way that we prove this is PHYSICS. We need to get the American public to wake up and realize that there is NO WAY PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE those towers collapsed as fluidly and quickly as they did as the result of a structural failure and a pancake collapse. 2 110 story buildings falling at near the rate of freefall in a vacuum without some assistance? NO WAY!!! We need to get the American public thinking again!!! Sure those 15 or so stories that started collapsing first were heavy, but heavy enough to pound the other 95 or so stories below them to little more than DUST? Maybe in Wonderland, but New York City ain't no Wonderland.

I feel the PHYSICS is the KEY to opening the public's eyes. THEN we work on the HOW.

I'm sorry to some of you guys out there, but you aren't gonna reach a whole lot of people by telling them "HEY!! THE PLANES WERE FAKE!!!!"..


But, that's just how I see it.
Jasn

very true you will need proof to say the plane America saw on tv was fake. Then prove to the witnesses on the street that the PLANE they saw was actually a missile.
yes we need to study what the physics of a plane going 500 mph. vrs. the steal beams of the trade center impacted at a slicing corner angle does to the stability of the rest of the un-compromised corners. then burn it in a concrete oven and prove it doesn't effect the beams AND concrete .
Its not like the buildings ONLY caught on fire! they were SLAMMED by a plane. the impact ruined the structure. The fire broke the camels back so to speak but do some tests on the physics of it.
ARE there tall buildings in Chernoble Russia? If so slam a plane in one of them and lets see what happens, theres nobody there anymore good testing ground. you are gonna need a building with multi level elevators to get that detonation effect when the air in the shafts gets compressed and blows out the windows on the floors below in the collapse.
i'm sure all our intelligent agencies knew what was in the works for 9/11 but i think each only had part of the picture and if they talked it over they may have been able to see the whole picture.
The best case you guys have is Tower 7. But You need video or pictures of all sides on ground level to see what damage is evident considering that is where it fell from, Ground - up. Did the wtc collapse compromise its foundation? it was basically ground zero for an earth quake too ya know. ever see burning buildings fall like that in earthquake damaged zones? Seeing a 10 second collapse of a building from 15 blocks away isn't enough to cry inside job.
MY EYES ARE OPEN! I see what you see but MY MIND IS OPEN TOO. So it will take some PHYSICS experiments to prove to me and the rest of the world that the fake planes had no effect and the towers were demolitioned.i listed a couple of counters to your guys claims and i doubt anyone will prove with experiments that it happened your way.

i am glad to hear some one ask for some thought and trial of experiment to strengthen a speculative accusation. We have never witnessed such an event before. allot of unique cause and effect happened that morning.
size of plane times speed by angle and pitch and how many floors of weight above pushing down on hole. Then add the weight of office things and water in pipes. How many beams were snapped by impact then how much fuel was left and did the heat intensify in the concrete walls. did the concrete walls help the walls from falling and if so could they have been destroyed bey the fire? could the water in the pipes been vaporized by the extreme temps and then when the temps lowered as time went on did it allow the water to flow onto the extreamly hot metal beams creating the metal to buckle,explode, or snap? was the top of the tower the Wrecking Ball to the lower floors. did the violent vibrations harmonically crack the lower floors weakening them for the coming wrecking ball. "many mud slides are dry its just the vibrations that flow the stream of soil down hill" did the debris earthquake fire create the perfect recipe for a building near by to fall from the ground up.
these things need to be thought out proven , investigated and disputed before you cry treason and accuse every one you disagree with guilty of playing a role in the horrors of 9-11. I have never seen an accident or another deliberate attack come close to this before and that may be a great reason why we have no experience in understanding the physics behind the cause and EFFECT of the wtc collapse.

i will show you a clip that i'm sure will go right OVER your head and you wont understand the connection i'm making here. The eye and mind without experience and familiarity will not recognize or believe an event without being easily repeated. it will cry fake, PHYSICALLY impossible, or CREATE its own truth to what it sees and compare it to whatever category the brain can cram it into like water flowing threw the least resistance.

www.youtube.com...

i have done this for people many times its easy to do and its hard to explain but not impossible. this is Physics at work. simple equation with magical result. now calculate everything in the towers going on without getting lost in the chaotic theory and lets see what we get.

i still can't believe that there are people out there who think that 9/11 was all terrorist

Originally posted by Wizard_In_The_Woods

Hmm. So it’s the “back to business” as usual approach. The “easy way out”. Let’s just go on with our lives. Because life is good. Anything interesting on television tonight? Well, that’s the attitude 99% of people have. Perhaps that IS the sane approach. Perhaps that IS the healthiest possible mindset. But, and this but is bigger than J-lo’s ass, ignoring the issue/problem won’t make it go away. What happened on 9-11 and why, is all-out significant for the times we live in. If we understand 9-11, we will get an idea of what’s in the future.

Where here has anyone suggested that we just ignore 9-11?

What's being suggested is that the "truth movement" scrap its current method of operation for a more calm one. One that's based in actual truth. Not wildly speculating about controlled demolitions and exotic weapons.

As SO stated in this thread, the "truth movement" isn't exactly a united front all working for the same goal. it's a slpintered mass of theories that all can't be right.

The theories that are least likely to be accepted by mainstream America are "no plane at the Pentagaon" and a controlled demolition of the WTC's. Yet the vast majority of what is discussed are those theories.

There is enough evidence that the government completely, (intentionally?), failed to stop the attacks on that day. There is enough evidence that Osama bin Laden, and in fact the whole family, have deep ties with the United States and it's elite leadership.

It begs the question: If it was found out that the United States government in fact was complicit in 9-11, but the towers weren't brought down by anything but the planes, would you be any less outraged? Absolutely not.

So why not start with the beginning? Show to people that there was clear foreknowledge something was going to happen and nothing was done to stop it. Show to people that Osama had worked for the CIA. These aren't difficult things to prove.

Maybe then the pieces can fall into place and we can discover what happened with the towers.

Originally posted by Wizard_In_The_Woods
Hmm. So it’s the “back to business” as usual approach. The “easy way out”. Let’s just go on with our lives. Because life is good. Anything interesting on television tonight?

I think you know damn well that the portion of my post you quoted is not even remotely related to this sentiment.

Perhaps you missed the more important point? The existing tactics of trying to prove "conspiracies" through available photos and compressed digital video is not working. And worse, it's creating a divisive atmosphere even among those inclined to look for a conspiracy.

You guys already know this. 9-11 happened because we, the United States are strategically commandeering (stealing) the world’s last significant petroleum reserves.

In the universe of "conspiracy speculations" that scenario is like an iceberg... it's the publicly visible portion of what's happening. If we lack the ability to submerge, we can only guess at what's beneath the surface of the water.

The conspiracy-minded person would consider that a constant state of conflict, or threat of conflict, perpetuates the need for a controlling federal government and robust military industry. It doesn't matter if the threat of conflict is communism or terrorism, it generates an appropriate need.

The conspiracy-minded person would understand that the threat of conflict has often been maintained in the past through "let-it-happen" or "make-it-happen" operations where covert assets were employed to ensure an appropriate outcome. Projecting that knowledge to present time, we should examine the events of 9/11 differently than we're doing now.

The conspiracy-minded person understands that activism and protests have been deployed or inspired as psychological tools in the past as the provocateur is just another asset in the arsenal of tactics. With this in mind, we might wonder if the "9/11 Truth" movement's focus on activism focused on difficutl-to-prove theories is an intended outcome.

And, everyone — e.g. Alex Jones — seems to keep bellyaching about the “New World Order”. ...snip...
The U.N. is OUR tool for crying out loud,

The conspiracy-minded person would speculate that recent US foreign policy failures are but one milestone in a weakening of our super-power status, designed to bolster the need for a unifying world organization.

Originally posted by Wizard_In_The_Woods
Hmm. So it’s the “back to business” as usual approach. The “easy way out”. Let’s just go on with our lives. Because life is good. Anything interesting on television tonight? Well, that’s the attitude 99% of people have. Perhaps that IS the sane approach. Perhaps that IS the healthiest possible mindset. But, and this but is bigger than J-lo’s ass, ignoring the issue/problem won’t make it go away. What happened on 9-11 and why, is all-out significant for the times we live in. If we understand 9-11, we will get an idea of what’s in the future.

Wow. That's a powerful statement my man and I totally agree with every word of it.

Good post!

Originally posted by Wizard_In_The_Woods

Hmm. So it’s the “back to business” as usual approach. The “easy way out”. Let’s just go on with our lives. Because life is good. Anything interesting on television tonight? Well, that’s the attitude 99% of people have.

Care to produce some figures for that claim?

It it obvious in your posts that you are under the assumption that is is accurate, regardless of the truth. You assume that if someone argues the fact that there is not enough evidence to ever PROVE how 9/11 truly went down, that they believe the official story. Well I am here to tell you friend, that is the pendelum swing of ignorance. Why do you automatically convict the person of being some sort of pop culture televison addict who doesn't care? I fail to see your logic, but I'm willing to listen to any explanation that would clarify.

fweshcawfee, feel free to elaborate as well.




[edit on 24-8-2007 by kleverone]