Round 2. Justin Oldham v Discomfit: Men are from Mars, UFOs are from Earth

The topic for this debate is "UFOs are not extra-terrestrial in origin, but in fact are secret military craft".

Justin Oldham will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Discomfit will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.


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When this thread becomes unlocked, you may proceed.

Opening statement:

UFOs are not extra-terrestrial in origin, but in fact are secret military craft. This very simple truth contradicts what many want to believe. Many of us embrace the notions of gods, angels, and saints, because we want very much to be a part of something that is bigger than ourselves. Those who champion the idealist notion that unidentified flying objects are in some way extra-terrstrial are cut from the same cloth. They too want to be a part of something bigger and better. With all their hearts, they want to be a part of something so 'grand' in both scope and scale that it just has to be true.

Prior to the invention of flying machines, it was common practice for pre-industrial men and women to assume that unidentified aerial phenomena were divine, or somehow manifested due to forces of nature that they didn't understand. The concept of extra-terrestrial visitations, such as those put forward in the Ancient Astronaught Theory carried on this presumption of divinity well in to the industrialized 19th and 20th centuries.

During the later half of the 19th century, authors like Jules Verne and H.G. Wells provoked a religious backlash when they dared to suggest that the beings who inhabited other worlds might be just as greedy and godless as eartbbound Man. In spite of this fundamentalist uproar, the desire to believe in extra-terrestrial life was so strong that it persists to this day.

Some ufologists claim that alien visitors interact with us to fulfill divine New Age purposes. Others with a more secular point of view suggest that alien visitiations have other more sinister purposes. As a whole, this community insists that the unidentified flying objects that we see in our skies are proof of life on other worlds. They fall back on their faith like it's a big fluffy cushion whenever the UFO's they call attention to turn out to be experimental military aircraft.

Governments around the world have a long history of secretive miitary aviation and aerospace programs. This known policy of deliberate secrecy has fuelled the imaginations of conspiracy theorists, science fiction writers, and New Age thinkers. At the end of October in 1938, Orson Wells stunned America with his "War of the Worlds" radio broadcast. His excellent portrayal of fictional media reports relating to a fictional alien invasion introduced the concept of "visitors from space" to the the general public. Science fiction writers in the 1940's embelished this pop culture sensation, which resulted in that form of literature becoming 'mainstream reading' by the 1970's. Conspiracy theorists from the 1950's to the present have been capitolizing on the UFO fascination.

It's worth noting that the popularity of UFO's and the fiction that surrounds them can be tied directly to the evolution many secret military aviation and aerospace projects. I'll be talking about the specifics of these programs during the expository portion of this debate. When I'm finsihed, you'll know why UFO's aren't space craft from other worlds piloted by aliens with inscrutible agendas, championed by people with questionable credentials, such as Bob Lazar.

There is no doubt in my mind that some UFOs sightings are the result of secret military programs. However I think there is strong reason to believe that not all unexplainable UFO sightings are military projects. We can all agree that a certain percentage of UFO sightings are natural phenomena, space debris and so on. However many UFO sightings are of strange craft exhibiting fantastic behavior not seen by other types of aircraft. This percentage of UFO sightings can not be cast a side simply because other UFO sightings are fake, are military craft or are weather events.

The UFO phenomena has been a convenient smoke screen for the military for sometime now. If an average Joe civilian accidentally caught a glimpse of a secret jet there is a chance they'd simply think it was an UFO. For the military this is worlds better than front page articles of top secret jets.

I believe the US Government has some amazing technologies. However I do not think the US Government has the type of technology exhibited in some UFO sightings. Hovering silently may not be that hard but going from 0 to 1,000 MPH in a few seconds (silently) or making right angle turns at extremely high speeds is. In short, some of the technical abilities displayed by some UFOs seems to defy our understandings of physics.

Am I to believe that the same government who uses model airplanes as "drones" has a secret project with amazingly advanced UFO type technology ?

Are we alone ?

The question evokes a torrent of images, feelings and thoughts. People from all walks of life have reported seeing UFOs. Pilots, military men, law enforcement officers and even the President of the United States have reported seeing UFOs. Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Christians, agnostics and atheist have reported seeing UFOs. UFOs have been reported over many important places including Washington DC. Rarely has a phenomena been so widely experienced and reported on. Thousands upon thousands of regular folks just like you and I have seen the strange lights in the sky.

Does that sound like a "secret military craft" to you ?

First Response:

Ladies and gentlemen, my opponent has conceded to several key points in his opening statement. In reverse order of presentation, he has demonstrated his desire to be a 'believer' in the UFO phenomena. His supposition is that any unexplained flying object sightings MIGHT be proof of extra-terrestrial visitation. During the course of this presentation, I'll prove to you that there is no logical reason to suspect--or even hope for-- the possibility that any of what you saee in the sky is an E.T. visitation.

Originally posted by discomfit
There is no doubt in my mind that some UFOs sightings are the result of secret military programs. However I think there is strong reason to believe that not all unexplainable UFO sightings are military projects.

A lot of people have spent a lot of time justifying their need to believe in UFO's. For its part,the United States government has gone out of its way to provide these believers with credible research materials. None of this accomodation has been cheap, or convenient.

Originally posted by discomfit
We can all agree that a certain percentage of UFO sightings are natural phenomena, space debris and so on. However many UFO sightings are of strange craft exhibiting fantastic behavior not seen by other types of aircraft. This percentage of UFO sightings can not be cast a side simply because other UFO sightings are fake, are military craft or are weather events.

As accepted by my colleague, most UFO's are agreed to be, "...any object or light, reportedly sighted in the sky, that cannot be immediately explained by the observer...At least 90 percent of UFO sightings can be identified as conventional objects, although time-consuming investigations are often necessary for such identification. The objects most often mistaken for UFOs are bright planets and stars, aircraft, birds, balloons, kites, aerial flares, peculiar clouds, meteors, and satellites..."

What are we to make of that small percentage of sightings that go unexplained? If my colleague is to be believed, they must somehow ALL be suspected of extra-terrestrial origin. I am comforted by the knowledge that there are so many active investigators digging in to this UFO matter. they may not make the discoveries they're hoping for, but they will eventually see these things for what they are.

Originally posted by discomfit
The UFO phenomena has been a convenient smoke screen for the military for sometime now. If an average Joe civilian accidentally caught a glimpse of a secret jet there is a chance they'd simply think it was an UFO. For the military this is worlds better than front page articles of top secret jets.

A casual analysis of the facts proves that the reverse of this statment is true. Since the 1950's, the UFO community has been exploiting the secrecy of government aerospace programs for its own gain. "Offciial secrecy" has been blamed for "failure to prove" by virtualy all known UFO advocates. The lack of any official Federal response to these charges has been accepted by most true believers of Ufology that the advocates are "right."

Originally posted by discomfit
I believe the US Government has some amazing technologies. However I do not think the US Government has the type of technology exhibited in some UFO sightings. Hovering silently may not be that hard but going from 0 to 1,000 MPH in a few seconds (silently) or making right angle turns at extremely high speeds is.

A casual examination of "some UFO sigitings" demonstrates that the average uninformed observer doesn't always know what they are looking at.

Originally posted by discomfit
Am I to believe that the same government who uses model airplanes as "drones" has a secret project with amazingly advanced UFO type technology?

Yes. It's worth noting that UFO believers have increased their expectations each time some new aerospace breakthrough is announced. U.S. Navy jet fighters take off at very high speeds over a very short distance. In the 1970's variable geometry aircraft defied explanation when first seen. The AV-8b Harrier first made famous by tye British was the source of much consternation when it was revealed to be capable of hovering, and radical turns. the F-117a Stealth Fighter was itself mistaken for a flying saucer when first viewed by self-proclaimed experts as it flew near Groom Lake. The F-22 Raptor is known to us, but its exact flight potential is still "classified." How many times will that be mistaken for a UFO while on maneuvers?

We can't know precisely what's on the drawing boards of any defense contractor. As much as we may want to meet people from other worlds, we must accept the fact that we haven't found them. As a species, we are spending vast sums and committing millions of man hours to finding them. Until we find them, or they find us, we'll have to concentrate on learning more about the planet we call home. As long as we can be baffled by solar, stellar, atmospheric, and geologic phenomena, we need to keep our feet planted firmly on the ground.

The secret that isn't
One of the weaker links in the "UFOs are a secret government project" argument is that UFOs aren't a secret at all. Nearly every women, man and child in America knows what a UFO is. If my opponent is to be believed UFOs are the governments 'elephant in the room' of secrets. Everyone has heard of them, everyone talks about them, some people have seen them, there are a gazillion videos about them and so on. Not much of a secret government project.

Questions:

If UFOs are part of a secret project why do they give off huge amounts of light? Many UFOs are easily spotted by the amazing amount of light given off. Most secret government projects try to avoid detection, not encourage it. This is one secret Uncle Sam isn't trying hard to keep.

Is it crucial to this secret project that UFOs are flown over heavily populated areas? If the government is trying to keep UFOs a secret why do they keep showing off the technology in plain sight?

If our government has a silent and super powerful propulsion system why hasn't it been implemented else where? Why is this amazing engine only used in a secret project that scares husbands and house wives?

The idea that the government is behind UFOs raises more questions than answers unfortunately.

The majority of our jets and other modes of travel still use internal combustion engines. How is it that our government has been undertaking this project for so long, appears to have yielded successful results yet nothing has come of it?

Is this projects only purpose to terrorize the ignorant populous ?

Time always tells
The theory that UFOs are a secret government project can't escape the test of time.

Not only has this project not produced any public results it also managed to be in full swing prior to the development the modern aircraft. Somehow while the entire world relied on prop engines for flight our government had secret craft more advanced than even our modern day jets.

The fact is that UFOs were being reported long before jets, America, the Air Force or Skunk Works existed. The "secret project" theory skips over this crucial point.

Re Justin Oldhams post

Justin Oldham said,
the United States government has gone out of its way to provide these believers with credible research materials

Project Blue Book in large part was a wash. The primary purpose of project Blue Book was to calm the public and give a sense that the government had the situation under control. I haven't reviewed all of Blue Book but it seems absolutely laughable. Multiple people (including police officers, air traffic controllers, etc) witness something amazing then project blue book steps in and declares it was a star or satellite. Some witnesses outright rejected Blue Books claims as ridiculous.

Justin Oldham said,
As accepted by my colleague, most UFO's are agreed to be, "..any object or light, reportedly sighted in the sky, that cannot be immediately explained by the observer... At least 90 percent of UFO sightings can be identified ..."

I did not previously nor do I now accept this. I concede that many UFO sightings are of natural or known causes. But I can not pretend to know what the percentages are as history.com does. It's unfortunate that history.com provides no data on the study they are referencing.

Justin Oldham said,
A casual examination of "some UFO sigitings" demonstrates that the average uninformed observer doesn't always know what they are looking at.

For over 40 years police officers, professional pilots, air traffic controllers, military pilots, and other military personnel have reported UFOs. Many of these incidents involved multiple witnesses from various vantage points 1|2. On one occasion military jets were scrambled to investigate UFOs but they were unable to achieve missile lock and suffered electronics failure (1976 Tehran).

There is no shortage of significant events in UFO history

Justin Oldham said,
The F-22 Raptor is known to us, but its exact flight potential is still "classified." How many times will that be mistaken for a UFO while on maneuvers?

Probably not very often. Here is an amazing video of the F22 in action. The F22, like most jets (and unlike most UFOs) is fairly loud. This aspect alone will tremdously cut down on how often it's mistaken for a UFO. The majority of UFOs are reported as silent or making a sound different than a jet engine. Also many UFOs are described as functioning very differently from normal aircraft in regards to their maneuverability and speed.

Justin Oldham said,
We can't know precisely what's on the drawing boards of any defense contractor.

I believe this is the crux of my opponents argument. The idea that we can not know everything on the defense contractors drawing board is suppose to somehow prove that no UFOs are of alien origin rather they are secret projects.

My belief that UFOs are not of this earth is based on one very simple idea : Many UFOs exhibit characteristics far beyond our capabilities. To the best of my knowledge we've never produced an aircraft that can move like a UFO.

Second Response

My esteemed colleague’s argument rests on faith, and hope. Faith in the existence of extra terrestrials, and the hope that they might one day step forward to reveal themselves. Before the introduction of powered flight, in centuries long past, primitive Man did look up in to the sky and he did wonder at what he saw. Without the principles of academic logic and empirical science, he conjured the spooky mysticism of astrology and the cults what we now call Ancient Astronaughts. The real “secret that isn’t a secret” is the fact that some people still cling to ancient mysticism because it favors their world view, and what they hope for the most.

When it comes to unidentified flying objects in the modern post-industrial context, we need to understand that the root cause of most airborne phenomena are STILL meteorological and atmospheric in nature. In spite of our advanced science and trained reasoning, we can still be fooled by what we see. Because it is now a cultural norm in many societies to entertain the notion of extra-terrestrial life, we hesitate to rule it out when we see something that defies our ability to comprehend or explain.

Eyewitnesses whom we may regard as “credible” can come from many different walks of life. Soldiers, sailors, pilots, police officers, and even air traffic controllers can’t all be expected to have a working knowledge of science and technology that would allow them to tell the difference between astronomical events and the very latest in aerospace technologies. The same physics that make it possible for us to misinterpret what we see have also provided us with the tools to unlock the mysteries of radical flight, strange illumibation, and aerodynamic anomolies.

It's not enough to debunk the UFO theory. It's not enough to demonstrate what these cutting-edge craft really are. We need to understand that the thinking which gives birth to them is vast in scope, and highly complex in its scale. One of the lesser known truths of aviation and aerospace development is the time scale that is often required to concieve and then create testbed technologies. Working the kinks out of these advanced ideas is known to take 50-75 years. As the facts of the case reveal, we are attempting to create certain advanced craft that could take two or more centuries to perfect.

It's worth noting that certain of the known radical techs concieved by the Nazis (Germany, World War Two, 1939-1945) are still under classified development after 65 years. Secrecy does have its limits, thanks to researchers and investigators of all sorts. We now know that the unearthly glow alleged to be given off by certain UFO's isactualy a secret U.S. government concept that has been under development for the last 40 years.

It's true that you'll find any number of alleged UFO books, movies, and videos, if you bother to look. In all cases, buyer beware. The future of classified technologies is something that we can only guess at, but we don't have to guess about the future of UFO worship. It'll be with us until we actually make that "first contact." Running down the many leads can tease us in to a frenzy of speculation when we look back over the last 60 years of classified aerospace development. The secrets of high-tech aviation and space travel might not be a kept very well, but thre's no doubt that we can trace a definite pattern of advancement.

The only measurable 'progress' made by UFO advocates would seem to be their ability to justify what they see based on what they've learned about the most radical theories and technologies which have been exposed by journalists and dedicated conspiracy buffs.

What Justin calls "faith" I call "vision". I didn't simply read about UFOs and come to believe they are real. UFOs are not like religion, they are not some story passed down for thousands of years. Many people alive today have seen UFOs with their own eyes.

Where is the evidence

My colleague has half heartedly written of UFOs as swamp gas, mistaken identity and a bad case of the black helicopters. There is absolutely no doubt some of the unexplained UFOs are military craft and the result of normal activity.

My opponent wants us to believe the government has amazing secret projects that are causing ufo sightings all across the globe. Where is the evidence and why would the government do such a thing ? Does my opponent have any evidence from this century which lends weight to their claims ?

My opponent continues to ignore the major technology gap between us and UFOs. UFOs are not just "better jets", UFOs are capable of physics defying feats. UFOs appear able to defy the effects of gravity, this is vastly different from how some experimental aircraft may operate. UFOs aren't simply scramjets with upgrades.

If UFO technologies are only a government project :
1. What is their purpose ?
2. If effective why haven't they been deployed ?
3. If non-effective why has development continued ?
4. UFOs are known world wide, why keep it a secret ?
5. Where is the evidence that the USA has a fleet of UFOs ?
6. How do you account for UFO reports pre-modernized aircraft ?

Justin said,
My esteemed colleague’s argument rests on faith, and hope. Faith in the existence of extra terrestrials, and the hope that they might one day step forward to reveal themselves.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. I do not hope for alien visitations. Me and many other people have no desire to make contact with aliens. You've continually painted belief in UFOs as some type of religious thing. As an atheist I find that amusing.

Justin said,
It's not enough to debunk the UFO theory. It's not enough to demonstrate what these cutting-edge craft really are.

You say this as if you can or already have completed both task. Unless I've missed something please share your evidence with the rest of us.

Justin said,
Eyewitnesses whom we may regard as “credible” can come from many different walks of life. Soldiers, sailors, pilots, police officers, and even air traffic controllers can’t all be expected to have a working knowledge of science and technology that would allow them to tell the difference between astronomical events and the very latest in aerospace technologies.

My opponent has played the "experts expert" card.

In short, the only person able to understand these complicated events is someone who's an expert in several advanced fields. The rest of us just don't got the brain power to judge a jet from a ufo. I might not have three Phds from Some Important College and super top secret clearance but I can tell the difference between a jet and shooting star. I propose that most people are fairly good observers. They might not be able to remember or articulate all the specifics very well yet they saw something none the less.

Stuff falling out of the sky is no big deal to a lot of people. It may be a little scary at first but people get over it. What people have trouble getting over is when a UFO flys next to their car. It's pretty hard to have a case of mistaken identity when the object isn't that far away.

My opponent continually focuses on the less dramatic UFO events that could easily be due to natural causes. I have no interest in these UFO reports. The only UFOs I'm interested in are the ones who display capabilities far beyond those of even our latest jets.

In this debate both parties carry the burden of proof. So far I feel like Justin has skirted his responsibilities.

Making UFO belief look silly does not prove UFOs are a government project.

[ Thank you for the time extension, sorry for the delay. ]

Third Response

As previously demonstated, The desire to believe in some things can be very strong. This trend has been with us since the beginning of time. It's normal human psychology. The argument favored by my colleague demonstrates that theology doesn't have to fact in to the traditionalist nor the sectarian view. It's worth noting that this perespect, regadless of era, continues to reamain self-centric. Empiricism would seem to be a matter of convenience. Please allow me to explain.

Originally posted by discomfit
What Justin calls "faith" I call "vision". I didn't simply read about UFOs and come to believe they are real. UFOs are not like religion, they are not some story passed down for thousands of years. Many people alive today have seen UFOs with their own eyes.

As previously demonstrated, UFO's really are like religion in that stories and images about them have been passed down for thousands of years. The power of tradition, combined with contemporary sightings of misunderstood objects and phenomena, has empowered people down through the centuries to insist that they--as rational beings--are not wrong about the identity of what they've seen.

Originally posted by discomfit
My colleague has half heartedly written of UFOs as swamp gas, mistaken identity and a bad case of the black helicopters. There is absolutely no doubt some of the unexplained UFOs are military craft and the result of normal activity.

As previously demonstrated, the various phenomena that can cause false UFO sightings are more sophsiticated than they appear. Stellar and atmosphereic occurances, combined with mis-indentification of experimental aircraft continue to serve the purposes of conspiracy theorists who want so very much to be "right," even if it means they have to resort to "some but not all" arguments. It's worth re-stating the observatio nthat investigated UFO sightings turn out to be...something else.

Originally posted by discomfit
My opponent wants us to believe the government has amazing secret projects that are causing ufo sightings all across the globe. Where is the evidence and why would the government do such a thing ? Does my opponent have any evidence from this century which lends weight to their claims?

America is NOT the only country that is developing advanced flight systems that are classified. That point has already been made. The main thrust of my oppinent's argument has been directed at the United States, so that's what I'll stick to. Proof of U.S. technical pursuits of radical flight and other aerospace advances has been slowly uncovered by diligent researchers for many decades now.

Its not enough to know that there are secret projects. It's also not enough for us to know that "they" fly these things when/where we can see them. Again, we come back to the matter of comlexity. As previously asserted and documented, certain of these R & D programs can take 75-100 years (or longer) to have what we might think of as successful results.

It's being suggested by many forward thinkersthat certain research in plamsa energy...which was begun in the 1960's...may one day revolutionize the way we look at aviation and think about UFO's. As more of this new knowledge makes its way in to the mainstream, we will doubtless have another chance to see Ufologists change their stories...again...so that they can explain what they see in the context of their strongly held beliefs, and what they've learned about outdated black budget aerospace projects.

Instead of presenting evidence that proves UFOs are merely a government project my opponent has repeated the same mantra over and over in hopes that it will somehow become more true.

Ignoring the issues doesn't make them go away. My opponent has continually dodged the bullet when it comes to explaining contradictions. Unfortunately this leaves me feeling like I'm beating a dead horse or talking to my own echo.

During this debate I hoped Justin could shed some light on why his supposed secret project is often spotted over civilian areas at very low altitude. I prayed that Justin would tell us why the government would even make project blue book. How insane is it that the government would launch an investigation into its own black ops ?

Unfortunately all of these hopes and dreams have been dashed. Instead of even attempting to explain these things Justin merely assures us all is right with the world and we're all just seeing comets and black helicopters.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
As previously demonstrated, UFO's really are like religion in that stories and images about them have been passed down for thousands of years.

My opponent claims that since there are UFO stories and religious stories then they must be the same type of thing. He ignores the fact that religious stories are based on men doing magic tricks from thousands of years ago and UFO stories tend to be based on things that occurred within the last 50 years seen by people from all walks of life.

All religion has is stories from thousands of years ago for their proof. UFOs don't have to rely on long passed down tales for people to think they exist. There is no shortage of people alive today who have seen UFOs. In this context comparing UFOs to religion is obviously beyond the pale.

My opponent somehow thinks comparing UFOs to religion proves UFOs are a government project, unfortunately this isn't true.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
As previously demonstrated, the various phenomena that can cause false UFO sightings are more sophsiticated than they appear.

My opponent has brought this debate to a grind. I've admitted from the very beginning that there are multiple causes for UFOs sightings yet my opponent parades this fact around as a new revelation. No one has ever doubted that UFOs have multiple causes.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
America is NOT the only country that is developing advanced flight systems that are classified. That point has already been made.

Now we've hit the gold mine.

As you can see my opponents argument when taken to its logical conclusion becomes more unlikely. My opponent has consistently tied UFOs to secret USA military projects. But when confronted with the fact that UFOs are seen across the world he changes gears and now claims that UFO technology is the secret of many governments, not just ours.

One can only wonder how and why so many governments have this amazing technology but none use it (militarily or commercially).

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
It's being suggested by many forward thinkersthat certain research in plamsa energy...

This is an appeal to authority if I've ever seen one. Here is the short version of my opponents paragraph.

"Because some unnamed authorities said XYZ therefor UFOs are government projects."

Where is the evidence ? Why even consider this possibility if there isn't anything more than a horses hair of evidence for such a theory.

[ Sorry for the delay, my sleep schedule is reverse of most peoples and life got a little busy. Thank you for understanding ]

Closing Statement

Ladies and gentlemen, during this exposition I have demonstrated that most of what we see in our skies which could be called UFO’s (un-identified flying objects) are in fact stellar or atmospheric occurrences. There is a small percentage of aerial events which are not found to be astronomical, meteorological, or terrestrial in origin. These “sightings” can be chalked up to the existence of misidentified aerospace vehicles.

Long before the peoples of the world suspected that their own governments might be conducting secret aerospace projects, they took comfort in the notion that alien visitations could explain why certain things happened. This mythology has remained with us, in spite of the evidence to the contrary. It is in fact the case that advances in science have only helped to revive this wish for extra-terrestrial involvement because advances in physics, chemistry, and other technologies have now made it possible for clever philosophical minds to explain what previously eluded them for so many centuries.

The competitive nature of politics and national survival has encouraged the governments of the world to undertake secretive projects of all kinds. The most high profile of these would be aviation and aerospace programs pursued by the USA. The simple truth is that American secrecy has proven to be less than perfect. It’s in the nature of free republics to expect some degree of information leakage. Speculators, researchers, and conspiracy buffs of all sorts feed on bits and piece of declassified data as they are released, found by accident, or deliberately stolen. The very existence of Above Top Secret dot-com is predicated on this pursuit of knowledge as it relates to secret government projects and agendas.

World War One forever changed the public’s perception of what was possible. People around the world learned new words. Airplanes and rockets became the new tools of fantasy. Science Fiction, as a genre, earned its legitimacy. Authors and moviemakers pushed the frontiers of social theory, unaware that certain governments (like Nazi Germany) were secretly developing new tools for new forms of manufacturing and warfare. The period of 1920-1939 can be characterized as the last decades of technological innocence.

When World War Two erupted, the peoples of the Earth got a crash course in secret government projects, and what they could really do. The Age of Paranoia had begun. Western leaders got a shock when they were told about the extent of Axis technology programs. In spite of the tremendous efforts made to capture inventors, formulas, blueprints, and prototypes, word got out and the general public was shocked yet again to discover that the ‘safe’ boundaries of rational science had once more been stretched beyond their ordinary understanding.

From the earliest days of the Cold War to the present, it has been accepted that any and all governments capable of supporting black projects are doing so. This includes the development of aviation and aerospace capabilities that go far beyond what we can dream of based on mainstream convention wisdom.

We can easily mistake naturally occurring events for alien spacecraft, especially when we want to believe in such things. UFO’s are not extra-terrestrial. As proven here, they are secret military vehicles spawned from classified government research programs that have long and woefully misunderstood histories.

To avoid making this a reply instead of a closing statement I've decided not to read my opponents last post.

Throughout this debate you've seen two sides of the same coin. The fact of the matter is that people have been seeing strange objects in the sky for some time now. Through advancements in science we've come to understand the reasons behind many of these sightings. However it is an undeniable statistical fact that some of these strange UFO sightings remain unexplained.

My opponent claims these are the results of global black ops projects experimenting with super-advanced technology. To support this claim he calls forth the memory of secret German projects and expert opinion of what the future might hold. Unfortunately there isn't much more evidence than that. Instead of focusing on providing evidence that supports his claims of these secret projects my opponent has decided to simply make UFO believers look foolish, like some sort of religious fanatics.

My theory is simple : we can't make aircraft that perform like UFOs there for UFOs were not made by us.

My opponents theory is much more complicated: Secret long term projects involving radical propulsion systems that draw massive amounts of attention to themselves and enjoys flying over civilian areas in plain views.

As I've repeated several times; I have no doubt many UFO sightings are comets and other objects with perfectly normal explanations. However there is something else going on in the sky and it's not normal at all.

If you're here at Above Top Secret then you've probably seen more than a few UFO videos, you may have even seen a UFO with your eyes. So judge for yourself, did what you see seem like some sort of a top secret project or maybe a little something different ?

[ Sorry again for the delay, I had some family stuff going on ]

Thanks again to ATS, The Vagabond and others who made these debates possible. Thank you to Justin for the debate.

Nicely done. Now we await the judges' decision.

The winner is Justin Oldham. Both sides put up an excellent effort on a question that really can't be answered to a complete certainty.

I don't think anybody expected this to answer the question once and for all, it came down to the quality and quantity of persuasive evidence presented by each side. By the end, the weights of the evidence scale were certainly tipped in Justin Oldham's favor from what I could see. Winner: Justin Oldham

The core of this debate seems to be whether or not human technology can do what UFOs have been seen to do, and Justin Oldham did the better job of explaining both the quantum leap that UFOs seem to make over mainstream technology, as well as several of the specific characteristics they display.