SR-71 Intercepted 169 Times

Originally posted by neformore
It had the radar cross section of a single engined Piper Cub apparently, which, for a plane 107ft long and with a 55ft wingspan wasn't doing so badly, was it?

I didn't say it's RCS sucked, I said it wasn't stealthy. It's RCS is pretty amazing for a plane that size of that age, but it's not too hard to pick up on radar.


Not like it matters anymore, anything that doesn't that the RCS of a DVD can get wrecked by the most modern AA missiles. The s-400 for example was designed to be precise enough to intercept and detonate properly to hit hypersonic targets moving at over mach 10.

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by uberfoop
That's like calling modern Russian fighter export aircraft 'stealthy'.

It had the radar cross section of a single engined Piper Cub apparently, which, for a plane 107ft long and with a 55ft wingspan wasn't doing so badly, was it?

Actually, the subsonic airframe was pretty stealthy and had a low RCS. However, when flying at its supersonic cruise speeds, the airframe would heat up (and so would the air), which caused a density difference great enough to actually reflect a radar beam.

Catching it, however, was an all-together different story. No known air-to-air missile could hope to strike the SR-71 - aside from a close-in IR-guided missile in a head-on intercept (from behind would be nearly impossible - even assuming the MiG could get behind the SR-71 and still be within "effective" weapon's range). And avoiding a MiG on an intercept vector would be a piece of cake for an SR-71. A small adjustment to the course would place the MiG approaching from the side - the missile would be unable to effectively intercept the aircraft, leaping from the MiG, trying to get in front of the SR-71, then trailing off behind the BlackBird.

Your only hope is a head-on intercept and the assumption that the plane cannot fly higher, still.

The only weapons those SR-71s really needed to fear would be some kind of directed-energy weapon, or being hit by an ICBM on its way into shallow-orbit. Some of the larger SAMs theoretically packed the altitude to nail a Blackbird - but not the maneuverability or the practical interception capability.

Although the Army was testing a new anti-ballistic missile missile a while back, and I was watching a video on it. Pretty nifty device. Pretty much drives a steel telephone pole at Mach 6 into its target (a ballistic missile on re-entry) .... now, THAT, I would be a little concerned about, were I a BlackBird pilot. It's a pretty crazy system - an Aegis radar on wheels (pretty much) and attached to the Patriot's big brother (who is also Superman) - which is attached to a rocket that makes some ICBMs look like a joke..... it's an intimidating weapon.

That, and the thing can maneuver in ways that seemingly defy the laws of physics.

That might be able to shoot down a BlackBird without many problems.

reply to post by Aim64C


Sorry chap, R-77 came years later. MiG-31s dedicated weapon is R-33, look that one up and do the numbers. It’s clearly able to reach Blackbird.

reply to post by iskander


Clearly? Its top speed is mach 3.5 which the 71 is just under at mach 3.2 (declassified)
I'm not claiming to be a russian missile expert but the semi-active radar homing with inertial initial stage final option that was choosen for the missile seems less desirable then the other options that included active radar homing and or a dual IR/radar homing seeker.

Originally posted by iskander
reply to post by Aim64C

 

Sorry chap, R-77 came years later. MiG-31s dedicated weapon is R-33, look that one up and do the numbers. It’s clearly able to reach Blackbird.

Again - that missile is incapable of intercepting the blackbird.

It's a simple matter of ballistics - that missile rapidly climbs, then assumes a ballistic trajectory to come down on top of its target.

Fired from head-on, the blackbird would change-course about 90 degrees, which would put the missile in a chase situation - with the blackbird already in the lead and capable of sustaining its top speed for far longer. The launching aircraft (the MiG-31) is also incapable of catching the BlackBird.

After that missile climbs - its motor is done - detached from the warhead like a mini-ICBM. It would not be capable of hitting the SR-71.

And, again, this is also assuming the BlackBird can't simply increase its altitude even further (the worst enemy of a missile - having to climb even further after its motor has burned out). Another problem is the SARH guidance system - which requires the MiG-31 to 'paint' the target. If the target-lock is broken once the missile goes to terminal guidance, even for a second - the missile will miss.

Your best bet at nailing a BlackBird would be to fly up in its face and nail it with an IR homing missile at a near point-blank range. Because you're not keeping pace with it, nor are your missiles.

Your best bet at nailing a BlackBird would be to fly up in its face and nail it with an IR homing missile at a near point-blank range. Because you're not keeping pace with it, nor are your missiles.

I agree, the best chance of knocking down a Blackbird would have been to use IRST and heat seeking missiles from the front. As soon as the SR-71s warning system detected hostile radar the pilot would be taking evasive measures that would have put the plane out of harms way.

Maybe someone has the numbers on how many missiles were shot at the Blackbird over its lifetime but IIRC it was 4,000 with no hits.

[edit on 10-1-2008 by what-lies-beneith]

reply to post by Aim64C

Again - that missile is incapable of intercepting the blackbird.

It's a simple matter of ballistics - that missile rapidly climbs, then assumes a ballistic trajectory to come down on top of its target.

For crying out loud, how many times do I have to repost the same sources?!

It’s not my OPPINION, it’s a matter of FACT.

The R-33 long-range missile was created for arming MiG-31 fighter-interceptors. It became operational in 1980 and is capable of engaging SR-71 strategic reconnaissance aircraft, B-52 and B-1 bombers, aircraft of front and transport aviation, and also helicopters and cruise missiles. The R-33 may be used at any time of day, under any weather conditions, in the presence of interference and jamming to engage targets flying against earth and water surfaces. The missile is made in a normal aerodynamic scheme and has a cruciform configuration. Lifting surfaces of the R-33 are made with a low aspect ratio and two control surfaces are folding for its semirecessed accommodation beneath the platform's fuselage. Control and stabilization in three angles are accomplished with the help of four mechanically unconnected (differential) aerodynamic surfaces activated by gas drives. The missile is equipped with a semiactive radar homing head that locks onto a target on the trajectory. Guidance of the R-33 to a target is a combination: inertial in the initial phase and homing in the terminal phase.

The R-33 is the first Russian air-to-air missile to use an onboard digital computer, which has stable characteristics compared with analogue devices. It is fitted with an active radar proximity fuze and impact fuze as well as with an HE-fragmentation warhead.

www.globalsecurity.org...

The Vympel R-33 (Russian: Вымпел Р-33, NATO reporting name: AA-9 Amos) is a long-range air-to-air missile developed by the Soviet Union. It is the primary armament of the MiG-31 interceptor, intended to attack large high-speed targets such as the SR-71 Blackbird, the B-1 Lancer bomber, and the B-52 Stratofortress.

www.answers.com...

www.fas.org...

Fired from head-on, the blackbird would change-course about 90 degrees, which would put the missile in a chase situation - with the blackbird already in the lead and capable of sustaining its top speed for far longer. The launching aircraft (the MiG-31) is also incapable of catching the BlackBird.

Yep, and that would be called a “mission kill”, and if it doesn’t turn, it’ll will be a kill.

And, again, this is also assuming the BlackBird can't simply increase its altitude even further (the worst enemy of a missile - having to climb even further after its motor has burned out).

MiG-25 holds the absolute altitude record to this day, 121 thousand feet.

MiG-31 cruise (operational) alt is 17,500 m (57,400 ft) with cruise speed of M2.35. Max horizontal alt is 89K feet (27K meters) with maximum speed of Mach 2.8 which can be exceeded to unspecified number if mission requires.

SR-71A max horizontal alt is 85K (26K meters)

Cruise speed is Mach 3.2, max speed Mach- 3,2+ bit not exceeding 427 degrees C CIT.

R-33 Mach 4.5 launched in horizontal or aeroballistic trajectory.

Do the Math and figure out the Fpole when fired from Mach 3 MiG-31 at 80K feet.

As history records, MiG-31s presence in the vicinity of SR-71 will result either in a mission kill, or a launch of a R-33s which may or may not catch the Blackbird, but since Foxhounds hunt in packs, the first shots will be fired only to flush the Blackbird out into another flight of 31s, and it will be the second flights job to finish it off.

Another problem is the SARH guidance system - which requires the MiG-31 to 'paint' the target. If the target-lock is broken once the missile goes to terminal guidance, even for a second - the missile will miss.

That’s just wrong, pleased read source.

Your best bet at nailing a BlackBird would be to fly up in its face and nail it with an IR homing missile at a near point-blank range. Because you're not keeping pace with it, nor are your missiles.

Maybe in a comic book or a cartoon where the space for all that action is limited by the size of the page or the TV screen, but in real life the world is a whole lot bigger then that.

For SR-71 that big world immediately gets a whole lot smaller as soon as MiG-31s appear in the area.

A good source for missile “non-comparison” charts;

www.canit.se...

I said it before and I’ll say it again, Soviet/Russian tactics have always focused on joint effort, and pondering upon scenarios in which a lone Blackbird valiantly goes against a lone Foxhound is simply ludicrous.

MiG-31s always patrol in multilayer packs, and SR-71 can only hope to skim right on the outskirts of the protected areas, because otherwise it will have to avoid both SAMs and MiG-31s, which will ruin anybody’s day.

The fact that officially SR-71 was never shot down has a lot more to do with the shooting down of the U2.

After such a disaster, loosing another spy plane was (and still is) simply not an option, and that’s why SR-71 was never shot down even if it was.

Here’s what I read years ago from a diary of a Russian WWII MiG3 interceptor pilot, and this is relevant to this conversation because German ground units were so effective specifically because they always had reliable and plentiful air reconnaissance data provided by Luftwaffe.

In fact, just by looking at any Soviet WWII stock footage, just about in every shot they are busy assembling, positioning, paining, and making all kinds of camouflage and decoys. Inflatable/Wooden planes, tanks, etc. All in a effort to confuse daily Luftwaffe recon flights.

His regiment was often tasked with hunting down high altitude German reconnaissance flights. Gruppenfliegerstab 32/41. (under Kommandeur der Luftwaffe Panzer-Armee-Oberkommando 1)

Talking about cat and mouse games. He explained that a zveno by it self had no chance of scrambling and intercepting a good German crew, regardless if they were flying BF 109s, Bf 110G, Fw 189s, etc.

Only in a team effort they could corner and either mission kill or intercept the intruder.

The pilot was from a village, and he wrote that it’s just like hunting down a village wolf with a string of red flags. (“village” wolf is a “lone wolf” that is no longer afraid of the humans, and attacks livestock at night)

After learning movement patterns of the wolf, the hunting party isolates a wooded area by putting up a string around the trees about 3 feet of the ground. The string has red flags evenly spaced a few feet apart, and when strung up it makes a coldasack.

Then they place the bait to lure the wolf into the area, and when the wolf takes it they flush him out towards the “flagged” trees where the shooters are.

Wild wolves don’t know how to react to the red flags and can’t jump over or under them, so they just run alongside, and that’s where the shooters bring them down.

Same strategy was (is?) used on recon planes since they always had the energy advantage. After learning their approach patterns and probing them for their limitations (speed, acceleration, altitude), “flushing” party will be placed in the patrolling area, while the shooting party will be right where those limitation “red flags” will stop the intruder in its tracks.

Nature teaches us absolutely everything we need for survival, and it will always be that way.

Originally posted by iskander
R-33 Mach 4.5 launched in horizontal or aeroballistic trajectory.

Umm as I perviously posted the max speed I found sited was 3.5 on wiki but GS says 4.5 I'm more then tempted to say your right though.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.globalsecurity.org...

From what you said though did you claim that it was wrong that the 2nd phase after burnout with a full mach faster isn't a factor on the tracking or lose of hight of the missile?



[edit on 11-1-2008 by Canada_EH]

reply to post by Canada_EH

From what you said though did you claim that it was wrong that the 2nd phase after burnout with a full mach faster isn't a factor on the tracking or lose of hight of the missile?

No. Being a Mach faster allows it to pull lead on evading Mach 3,5 target.

R-33s official specs state that it’s capable of engaging targets flying up to Mach 3,5 at maximum altitude of 92 thousand feet, or simply put a target such as SR-71.

R-37 on the other hand, being the next gen R-33 is designed to engage hypersonic targets, thus its Mach 6 speed.

In April of 1994, world’s first air-to-air intercept was conducted by R-37 from a distance of over 300km.

R-33 weighs 491 kilos, R-37 weighs 600 kilos.

www.testpilot.ru...

sergib.agava.ru...

edit:spl


[edit on 12-1-2008 by iskander]

[edit on 12-1-2008 by iskander]

[edit on 12-1-2008 by iskander]

I think if the Soviets had had a missile that could have effectively intercepted the SR-71 when it was operational they would have used it. It's great SUSTAINED speed and height allowed it to avoid/outmaneuver all the missiles shot at it (4000?).

According to men who flew it operationally like Brian Shul, when engaged all that was required was to put the throttle to the stops and make a slight adjustment to the trim to increase altitude. Mach 3.2 may be the official de-classified top speed of the SR-71 but operationally pilots quote Mach 3.5 or higher. The Blackbird became more efficient the faster it flew, the restricting limit being how much heat the titanium skin could take. The engines of the missiles shot at it on the other hand burnt out in seconds.

It's no wonder no SR-71 was shot down, and it would still be an effective platform today with modern engines and avionics.

reply to post by what-lies-beneith


[qote] I think if the Soviets had had a missile that could have effectively intercepted the SR-71 when it was operational they would have used it.

After U2? I don’t think so. That was a total disaster for us and risking SR-71 to Soviet SAMs/interceptors would have put a definite end to the entire concept.

After Cuban U2 went down Soviets didn’t want an escalation either.

Soviets did what they needed to. They kept the Blackbird away from places they didn’t want it to be. I do believe that on occasion Blackbird skimmed over some remote parts of USSR, but not anywhere close to defended areas of any value.

It's great SUSTAINED speed and height allowed it to avoid/outmaneuver all the missiles shot at it (4000?).

Not true, a mission kill is a mission kill, R-33s fpole reaches it no problem, and in conjunction with SAM traps and organized MiG-31 hunting party the Blackbird would simply have no place to go.

Red flags.

Mach 3.2 may be the official de-classified top speed of the SR-71 but operationally pilots quote Mach 3.5 or higher.

Let’s go with what we got, because the same is said about Soviet gear, and in the end it always turns into a mess.

The Blackbird became more efficient the faster it flew, the restricting limit being how much heat the titanium skin could take.

Yeah, as I posted earlier that would be 427 degrees C CIT.

The engines of the missiles shot at it on the other hand burnt out in seconds.

Do you know the burn time of R-33?

It's no wonder no SR-71 was shot down, and it would still be an effective platform today with modern engines and avionics.

After U2s having SR-71 shot down was simply not an option, POLITICALLY.

Exactly the same as having a B-2 shot down is simply not an option, and it will NEVER happen. B-2 will be retired before it ever suffers a loss. Why? Because a single unit costs as much as an entire aircraft carrier, and B-2s will simply never be sent into real harms way unless Galactic WWIII brakes and we have to fight it “Independence Day” style.

Having lost two F-117 is not a big deal really. They are combat aircraft, tactical missions, sh!t happens, but with birds like SR-71/B-2/etc, risking them is not an option.

Not true, a mission kill is a mission kill, R-33s fpole reaches it no problem, and in conjunction with SAM traps and organized MiG-31 hunting party the Blackbird would simply have no place to go.

This is hardly practical. There was always a limited amount of Mig-31s they were a strategic asset based around the most important sites in the Soviet Union and required permanent facilities. They weren't like Mig-29s that you could base wherever you felt like. The SAMs that had the range and speed to reach the SR-71 were likewise in relatively small numbers and required semi-permanent bases that could be plotted using Rivet Joint and satellite missions. The Blackbirds as a result started their mission with a good idea of where the threats were located and what path to take to complete the mission.

We're talking about an aircraft that spent most of it's time CRUISING at high supersonic speeds. By the time it was detected and its course determined there was probably no time to get Mig-31s into place for an intercept. It's not like a Tu-95 heading into European or Alaskan airspace at 500 knots. The Blackbird would have been traveling at over 2,000 mph and the time to launch and climb to altitude to even come close to a missile launch window on it would have been almost non-existant. That was the whole point of building a Mach 3+ surveillance aircraft.

[edit on 12-1-2008 by what-lies-beneith]

reply to post by what-lies-beneith

This is hardly practical. There was always a limited amount of Mig-31s they were a strategic asset based around the most important sites in the Soviet Union and required permanent facilities.

Ok then, the “Aug/September 2007 Vol 8 No 4. Issue of "Combat Aircraft" must be full of crap.

Lets send them a complaint!

We're back to semantics, if they're defining an interception as forcing a SR-71 to change course 169 times during a mission then it's possible. I doubt it was prevented from completing its mission that many times.

As for a MiG-31 intercepting an SR-71 in the traditional sense, it's nonsense. The MiG had niether the altitude or sustained supersonic cruise capabilities. It was more of a very expensive point defence system.

reply to post by what-lies-beneith

As for a MiG-31 intercepting an SR-71 in the traditional sense, it's nonsense. The MiG had niether the altitude or sustained supersonic cruise capabilities. It was more of a very expensive point defence system.

Blackbirds surveillance use is a spin off, we do know that. Originally it was supposed to carry metal, not glass.

YF-12A.

If you honestly believe that after losing TENS of millions in the Great Patriotic War, and after seeing Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Soviets knowingly allowed a Mach 3+ interceptor/bomber design to violate its airspace, I can honestly end here.

There is a torrent file out there, Discovery Channel Wings of the Red Star, MiG-25 Foxbat.

It’s chopped, the part about the welding is cut out, it does not show the original Zaslon verses AN/APG-71 diagram, but it still clearly defines the roles of both 25 and 31.

Lockheed planned a whole series of fighter and bomber versions of the Blackbird, if they had ever gone into service the Soviets would have been in deep trouble. Lockheed demonstrated a successful lookdown/shootdown system for the SR-71 that would have allowed a relatively few interceptors to pick off Soviet bombers attacking over the pole. It's bomber version would have been able to avoid or outrun most Soviet air defences and take much less casualties than the B-47, B-52 and even the later B-1B fleet. They even developed a kinetic energy bomb, that didn't need explosives, just the meteoric speed the SR-71 would have given it.

One of the reasons it wasn't developed for the combat role was the destabilizing affect it would have had. The other was cost.

It was one hell of a good plane, and that doesn't take anything away from Soviet aircraft as you seem to feel. It was designed for a different purpose than the MiG-25/31 series by one of the greatest aviation minds ever.

[edit on 13-1-2008 by what-lies-beneith]

reply to post by what-lies-beneith

Lockheed planned a whole series of fighter and bomber versions of the Blackbird, if they had ever gone into service the Soviets would have been in deep trouble.

I hate to do this, but even before Skunk Works crew ever got together, Soviets were getting ready for the Canadian Avro Arrow, which LITERALLY created the high-supersonic technological foundation for the entire US aircraft industry.

I hate saying it out laud, but in comparison to what was supposed to be, F-14 Tomcat fares as an aborted fetus existing on life support.

The relevant question here is what are the origins of the Aim-64?

The massive irony is that the Arrow back then was what the Tomcat could never come close to.

Originally posted by iskander
I hate to do this, but even before Skunk Works crew ever got together, Soviets were getting ready for the Canadian Avro Arrow, which LITERALLY created the high-supersonic technological foundation for the entire US aircraft industry.

The massive irony is that the Arrow back then was what the Tomcat could never come close to.

Star that. Many thanks iskander. The CF-105 Avro Arrow and its engineers where at the top of the game when it came to high alt interceptor aircraft with high top speeds that where no matched for the next 15 to 20 years much like the TSR-2.

The difference with Avro is that it lost all of its engineers for the project when it was cancelled (insert your own reason here) and they went on to work for Kelly Johnson and NASA and Boeing etc. Canada at least half of its brillent minds due to the loss of that project.

I hate to do this, but even before Skunk Works crew ever got together, Soviets were getting ready for the Canadian Avro Arrow, which LITERALLY created the high-supersonic technological foundation for the entire US aircraft industry.

I hate saying it out laud, but in comparison to what was supposed to be, F-14 Tomcat fares as an aborted fetus existing on life support.

The relevant question here is what are the origins of the Aim-64?

The massive irony is that the Arrow back then was what the Tomcat could never come close to.

Even the Arrow wouldn't have been in the same class as an SR-71 interceptor. Like almost all high performance aircraft at the time it could only achieve its maximum speeds for a short time.

Like I've been trying to point out to you the SR-71 was unlike any aircraft at the time or even the present. It was designed and built to CRUISE at high supersonic speeds at great altitude. It was also a product of the Skunk Works and people like Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich who designed its unique propulsion system, not Avro Canada.

While the SR-71 production might have benefited from experienced Canadian workers joining Lockheed, it was the Skunk Works that did most of the work in figuring out how to build a titanium airframe plane that would operate at speeds and altitudes where no other aircraft has spent more than a few moments at since.

And unlike the Arrow, Lockheed developed a working weapons system for the SR-71. Based on the GAR-9 AAM and the ASG-18 radar system, the SR-71 would have been able to pick off Soviet bombers at will. It was able to hit twelve out of thirteen drone targets during testing from launch altitudes as high as 75,000 ft. and speeds of Mach 3.2 and at distances of up to 80 miles.

edit- And it was Kelly Johnson and the Skunk Works that produced the first Mach 2 fighter, the F-104 Starfighter, several years before the Arrow project got underway.



[edit on 14-1-2008 by what-lies-beneith]

[edit on 14-1-2008 by what-lies-beneith]

[edit on 14-1-2008 by what-lies-beneith]

reply to post by what-lies-beneith

Like I've been trying to point out to you the SR-71 was unlike any aircraft at the time or even the present. It was designed and built to CRUISE at high supersonic speeds at great altitude. It was also a product of the Skunk Works and people like Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich who designed its unique propulsion system, not Avro Canada.

I’m not going into this thing. There was a great film about the Arrow, and I especially remember when the plant workers were all laid off with out prior warning and just told to go home, there was a swarm of recruiters from every single American aerospace company handing out business cards on the spot.

While the SR-71 production might have benefited from experienced Canadian workers joining Lockheed, it was the Skunk Works that did most of the work in figuring out how to build a titanium airframe plane that would operate at speeds and altitudes where no other aircraft has spent more than a few moments at since.

Actually the Canadians were the ones to first start really working with titanium, and it was exactly what made the Arrow so special. It was the first aircraft that extensively used titanium.

And unlike the Arrow, Lockheed developed a working weapons system for the SR-71.

Hold on there, I seem to remember Astra radar/FCS, and a very ambitious Sparrow II program which US Navy chose not to tackle.

Based on the GAR-9 AAM and the ASG-18 radar system, the SR-71 would have been able to pick off Soviet bombers at will. It was able to hit twelve out of thirteen drone targets during testing from launch altitudes as high as 75,000 ft. and speeds of Mach 3.2 and at distances of up to 80 miles.

There was a problem with radar return “ghosting” though, and I seem to remember that Bears were able to ghost their returns in a radius of 300 kilometers.

In any case, why the mystery? If sustained Mach3 80 mile intercepts was the name of the game, what happen? Tomcat?

edit- And it was Kelly Johnson and the Skunk Works that produced the first Mach 2 fighter, the F-104 Starfighter, several years before the Arrow project got underway.

What does that have to do with anything?

104 is a completely different bowl of soup, and on that note MiG-21 kind of took the 104 out of the game from the start. A far as I recall the first recorded supersonic air combat took place between the Pakistani 104 and Indian 21, which resulted in a victory for the 21.