Satan is not Lucifer.

Sorry just reposting my input as the the conversation is lost amongst other peoples chats so I will make seen better which leads to another undertanding or asks new questions.

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Just wondering what is the Star of David is about maybe a connection to this and has that got anything to do with Jesus being the morning star? There was a bright star at his birth too maybe different things and meanings here, sounds the same but could have a different symbolism.

This could be it, the morning star was meant to be Satan anyway, he was meant to be the morning star that failed so Jesus took up the role as his will bring right where Satan's went wrong as the morning star, two different stars one that failed one that wins out of what is right so Jesus fulfils that role as he too came down as man but in a different way as saviour. Like two different philosophies going on here right wing or left in politics but does not mean it’s the same person.


[edit on 19-8-2007 by The time lord]

Originally posted by The time lord
Just wondering what is the Star of David is about maybe a connection to this and has that got anything to do with Jesus being the morning star? There was a bright star at his birth too maybe different things and meanings here, sounds the same but could have a different symbolism.

This could be it, the morning star was meant to be Satan anyway, he was meant to be the morning star that failed so Jesus took up the role as his will bring right where Satan's went wrong as the morning star, two different stars one that failed one that wins out of what is right so Jesus fulfils that role as he too came down as man but in a different way as saviour. Like two different philosophies going on here right wing or left in politics but does not mean it’s the same person.


[edit on 19-8-2007 by The time lord]

I cant find anything connecting the Shield of David, aka Star, to Jesus, Morning Stars, actual stars, Satan, or even Ancient Israel.

It wasnt named Shield of David till the Middle Ages and was an Amulet associated with the names of Seven Angels. The Hexagram itself is an Ancient Symbol. It can be found in Ancient India. One was found in Sidon dating back before Jesus. Its found all over the world just not connected to Jesus or even David.

@mikeboyd....my apologies.some of my comments were not directed at you,but others.its just that it was like 5 in the morning and brain forgot to put down these peoples names,lol

Originally posted by jakyll
@mikeboyd....my apologies.some of my comments were not directed at you,but others.its just that it was like 5 in the morning and brain forgot to put down these peoples names,lol

Apologies accepted. I get abit confused my self if a reply isnt directed at anyone specifically. Its as if a statement is being made to a general audience. So then I reply.

I think its because of conditioning and self-ignorance that there is misconceptions not only about Lucifer and Satan, but many other things as well. A lot of people just repeat what they see or hear for others as well as the net and media. We consume these things and identify with them as our own, this is the spread of ignorance. These are household names now, and even I conjure up a stereotypical devil when I hear Lucifer or Satan. It is hard to do but people must break their conditioning and deny ignorance.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by PontiacWarrior]

Anyway this a only a website, no excuse to call names or be personally nasty to people we never met or be pround to be nasty from safe location in a cowardly safe haven of our distance. We have different views and extended knowlege to things and we should be here to help out with the situation or subject not to threaten people personally because that is not exactly the argument here its not an argument as such but a quest for truth and knowlege. Anthing else borders behaviour of ignorance, sorry to say.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by The time lord]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

The oldest known copy of the Book of Enoch is from around 160 BC. It was part of the what we would call the Bible today during the time of Jesus. It is quoted in Jude. Jude 14-15.

I know. I ask a lot of questions to try to get people to think. Just like I asked you who the mortal Babylonian king being talked about in Isaiah 14 is. Though you have made an effort to answer, you have not used the text to come up with the right one.

Baal means Lord or Master.

No doubt, that's why people should pay attention when someone talks of worshiping the Lord on SUNday. Best make sure which Lord is being discussed. That's a common smoke screen to fool the blind.

An epithet often used for Hadad, the Syrian storm deity. He's basically Marduk and Zeus. In the Bible Ba'al isnt even given the dignity of being a Demon. G-d says he is nothing more than the work of man's hands. Shaped and sculpted stone and metal.

Marduk and Zeus huh? I agree..........and Pan and Osiris and Jupiter etc. etc. etc. Baal is much more than the storm diety.

Semiramis? Youve been reading the Hislop hypothesis from a Protestant minister in the 1800s who created the idea that Semiramis and Nimrod were the source of all pagan deities. The truth is there isnt anything historcial to prove she even lived and especially was the source of Mother Goddess legends.

Nope, never read Hislop book, though I have run across the book on the net. I've just run across thousands of reasons why these dieties are connected. You just connected Baal, Marduk and Zeus. It's not hard to connect Osiris to Zeus or Dionysus the son of Zeus. Pan to Baal........no problem. Adonis to Tammuz..........That's why I ask a lot of questions to get people to think. How did Adonis die.....Killed by a wild boar......same as Tammuz. Imagine that.

I am completely against the idea of Sunday worship. So we have a similar view there. The G-d of Abraham is not a Sun deity. He didnt ask to be worshipped on Sunday either. Sun deities get worshipped on Sunday, like Sol Invictus/Mithras.

I'm not sure I can connect them all like that. Zeus, Hadad, and Marduk all are assocaited with Storms, Rain, Lighting, or Thunder. So its easy to associate them. I could throw Thor and Indra into that group as well.

Pan though. Pan is nothing like them. Osiris isnt like them either. Jupiter is similar to Zeus and later became the same but he didnt start out like that.

Jupiter translates to Sky or Heavenly Father. He was originally more of a Sky deity originally than Storm deity.

A number of deities are connected but it has nothing to do with Nimrod or a semi mythical Semiramis. Try to find the works of Joseph Campbell. He wrote a number of books on the same idea that most myths are connected.

I think it has more to do with Celestials like the Sarim and Beni Elohim than any humans.

Originally posted by PontiacWarrior
I think its because of conditioning and self-ignorance that there is misconceptions not only about Lucifer and Satan, but many other things as well. A lot of people just repeat what they see or hear for others as well as the net and media. We consume these things and identify with them as our own, this is the spread of ignorance. These are household names now, and even I conjure up a stereotypical devil when I hear Lucifer or Satan. It is hard to do but people must break their conditioning and deny ignorance.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by PontiacWarrior]

I completely agree. Have you ever looked at the concept of memes? They are kind of like Information Viruses. Thats basically what I'm struggling against is a number of Memeplexes that ignore whats actually written.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

I'm not sure I can connect them all like that. Zeus, Hadad, and Marduk all are assocaited with Storms, Rain, Lighting, or Thunder. So its easy to associate them. I could throw Thor and Indra into that group as well.

Pan though. Pan is nothing like them. Osiris isnt like them either. Jupiter is similar to Zeus and later became the same but he didnt start out like that.

You need to go beyond connecting simply by their traits, though that is certainly part of it.

As for Osiris.....Isis becomes pregnant by a bolt of lightning etc. The encyclopedia and other sources have no trouble in connecting Baal to Bel to Zeus....Osiris to Zeus and Dionysus....Ahura Mazda to Zeus etc. Google Pan Baal.........they are linked etc.

A number of deities are connected but it has nothing to do with Nimrod or a semi mythical Semiramis. Try to find the works of Joseph Campbell. He wrote a number of books on the same idea that most myths are connected.

I have run across Campbell on the net. Seems to have a problem denying archaeological evidence and draws plenty of wrong conclusions. I don't really read anyones books. I like to think for myself, as it's too easy to shoot holes in these these type books. If you are getting your info from Campbell you are looking in the wrong place.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I have run across Campbell on the net. Seems to have a problem denying archaeological evidence and draws plenty of wrong conclusions. I don't really read anyones books. I like to think for myself, as it's too easy to shoot holes in these these type books. If you are getting your info from Campbell you are looking in the wrong place.

Go beyond linking their traits? There is no way these various beings are the same being. There is a set number of archetypal patterns that a number of them follow, but not all the same being.

I think what your trying to say is that somehow there is this Other Deity, or Opposing Power that takes the forms of all these deities. The problem with that is the G-d of the Bible has no Equal and no Opposite. Satan and any other Celestial for that matter have no authority other than what G-d gives them.

Azazel is an example of a Celestial not obeying G-d and he was rendered paralyzed and powerless. He is certainly no evil dualistic force. He has no influence over anything.

If you want an idea where many of these Deities originate, who or what they really are:

DEUTERONOMY 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations; ask your father, and he will show you; your elders, and they will tell you. 8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of men, He fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of The Sons of G-d . 9 For the LORD's portion is His people, Jacob His allotted heritage.

II CHRONICLES 18:18 Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all The Host of Heaven standing on His right hand and His left. 19 And the LORD said, 'Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will persuade him.' The LORD said to him, 'In what way?' 21 "So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.' 22 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you."

NEHEMIAH 9:5 . . . "Stand up and bless the LORD your G-d forever and ever! Blessed be Your glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise! 6 You alone are the LORD; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all. The Host of Heaven worships You."

JEREMIAH 19:13 "And the houses of Jerusalem and the houses of the kings of Judah shall be defiled like the place of Tophet, because of all the houses on whose roofs they have burned incense to all The Host of Heaven."

II KINGS 17:15 And they [Israel and Judah] rejected His statutes and His covenant that He had made with their fathers, and His testimonies which He had testified against them; they followed idols, became idolaters, and went after the nations who were all around them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them that they should not do like them. 16 So they left all the commandments of the LORD their G-d, made for themselves a molded image and two calves, made a wooden image and worshiped all The Host of Heaven"

II KINGS 21:3 For he [Manasseh] rebuilt the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; he raised up altars for Baal, and made a wooden image, as Ahab king of Israel had done; and he worshiped all The Host of Heaven and served them. 4 He also built altars in the house of the LORD, of which the LORD had said, "In Jerusalem I will put My name." 5 And he built altars for all The Host of Heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD. 6 Also he made his son pass through the fire, practiced soothsaying, used witchcraft, and consulted spiritists and mediums. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger.

JOB 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together and all The Sons of G-d shouted for joy?"

DEUTERONOMY 4:19 "And beware not to lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all The Host of Heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven

JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when The Sons of G-d came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."

JOB 2:1 Again there was a day when The Sons of G-d came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."

PSALM 82:1 [A Psalm of Asaph.] G-d has taken His place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods He holds judgment: 2 "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah 3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. 4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." 5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6 I say, "You are gods,Sons of the Most High, all of you; 7 nevertheless, you shall die like men, and fall like any prince." 8 Arise, O G-d, judge the earth; for to thee belong all the nations!

DANIEL 10:5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude. . . . 12 Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your G-d, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.

DANIEL 10:20 Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Now I must return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I am through with him, the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I am to tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth. There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince."

ISAIAH 24:19 The earth is broken asunder, the earth is split through, the earth is shaken violently. 20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard and it totters like a shack, for its transgression is heavy upon it, and it will fall, never to rise again. 21 So it will happen in that day, that the LORD will punish The Host of Heaven on high, and the kings of the earth on earth. 22 They will be gathered together like prisoners in the dungeon, and will be confined in prison; and after many days they will be punished

The Answers are in the Bible itself.

[edit on 19/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

I whould love to add my own ranting and raveings to this topic and agree with you on saying Satan is not lucifer at all...


Hell is based on a Monarchis type group being a king and queen a royal family... Satan was the name of the king a Title given .


The frist King of hell was a Female named Satin who hade a Blood bond with the demons of hell there form was changed and mishapend by finding A realm that time was held still in by brakeing it open immense power was riped forth and changed there forms for all time..

Lucifer one of the Kings of hell Bound Satin in to himself cruseing the royal line but controlling it the same as her..


thats all for my rant but another interasting tid bit

The saying At hells heart i stab at thee is really a term describing the way in wich the kinds of hell took over for there fathers.. By the Heart of darkness.

Thanks for reading ever one and injoy

more evidence that the bible is a reference to the movements of the stars, and predictions along with them perhaps, metaphore and forsight..nothing more interesting!

I think its as or even more important to discuss about silversurfers surfboard. Is it really silver or just silvercoated. Or is the incrediple hulk really green or only green-ish....

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Thanks for that, it is certainly a clear link between Lucifer and Jesus, and it is right there in the bible.

Probably on the 'Top Ten Most Ignored Blatant CLUES' list, no doubt!

If all the seemingly ( on the surface and according to mankind's PREFERRED theology ) irreconcilable BLATANT clues were given the weight they deserve in any one's study ( if they so choose to study they must study thoroughly but selectively seems to be the norm)...
well, then, we really wouldn't have much to talk about in regard to these sorts of perpetual conundrums...

Of course, I am told regularly that I am not qualified to interpret scripture. It is my experience to hear that whenever I tell Christians I feel that the most likely meaning is what is actually written down.

You are not alone, my dear - religion is a selective school of thought and it seems to me that religious thought impedes intimacy with G.O.D. and clouds one's potential understanding with a sense of forced propriety and exclusion.

Lots of times the experts, and the consensus view is that what is written actually means something else, like when it says teacher it means teacher, but when it says Rabbi, it means teacher, but only if it is referring to Jesus, etc.

Who do you mean when you say 'experts?'

Self-proclaimed or truly experienced through literal understanding?

Profits or prophets? "~)

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
No, Helel is simply the poetic name of a man in a prophecy who dies. Its just a dead guy or someone who will die.

How did you come up with that? The name is actually Heylel and is the result of making a proper name of a the word 'halal' which means:

A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

One may boast in one's self or one may boast in G.O.D.

Let he who glories, glory in G.O.D. and G.O.D. alone!

Nebuchadnezzar is the epitome of this idea in the OT; neatly and perfectly taught in just one single chapter in the book of Daniel (the fourth chapter)...

The lesson for all of us - sons of G.O.D. as well as sons of men....first we come and vainly attempt to make a name for our selves in the typical human futile fashion...eventually we learn that we can do nothing of duration or value apart from our Creator. And the interim of what most call 'mortality' is nothing more than the fiery furnace of precious refinement toward the perfection of Spirit (which is TRUTH).

The more we are chastised, brought low (to the sides of the pit), and abased in our lives, the more we will be lifted up in the end....it is a GOOD thing to be a branch so abominable that even the Earth will not abide burial of same for any amount of time.

Only the dead are buried...those who live are those who are cast out of their graves!

What goes up, must come down....and what goes around, comes around.

I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me. And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him. And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him.
(Jeremiah 27:5-7)

The concept that is totally overlooked is that of REPENTANCE....Neb repented - as the king of Assyria (Babylon) - in the book of Jonah his kingdom is called Ninevah. The names may change in order to distract the prideful eye - who knows? Clearly, though, it is the act of sincere repentance (turning or RE-turning toward G.O.D.) that is the underlying mechanism of salvation for the human soul!

It is an idea (in specific relation to the Babylonian King) which Christ reiterated in Palestine when chastising the Pharisees for their vain self-righteous attitude:

But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
(Matthew 12:39-41)

Another excellent diversionary tactic! The 'sign of Jonah' is NOT that of resurrection (for those he condemned for seeking after a sign) but is, instead, is the WITHERED VINE.

Read the 4th chapter of Jonah: he was angry in a totally childish manner because the work that the LORD sent him to do, on behalf of the people of Ninevah, was a SUCCESS! He prophesied for three days and the WHOLE nation immediately donned their sackcloth and ashes and repented in full!

And yet it made Jonah mad that G.O.D. would be fair enough to be both merciful and generous with the heathen the same as with those that would consider themselves 'favorites' of 'chosen.' Such a selfish attitude will be overturned at the hand of G.O.D.! And so, in the end, it is the heathen who are given judgment over those who felt such a thing would NEVER happen!

Why would it happen?

BECAUSE the heathen repented! And the Pharisees did not!

It was the Pharisees in the days of Christ...and today it is (mainly/generally) the evangelical Christians...truly there is nothing new under the sun!

'Repent' is the message then and now. Follow G.O.D. Listen only to G.O.D.

That is ALL that matters, in the end - not names, not places of birth - not even past behaviors and transgressions!

It is NEVER too late to turn toward G.O.D. and leave the selfish ways of the world behind!

However, the first shall be last and the last shall be first....



Heylel might well be the leader of the pack - wolf or not - it is G.O.D.'s choice and not man's!

Jonah

Wicked seeds seek for a sign
Worm and blight, withered vine
Cruel sun blasting on their head
Without love, the wind is dead

But anger is not heaven's way
God sent love to save the day
Shining Son on cursed tree
Broken hearted slaves set free

G.O.D. bless us ALL!

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The only struggle is Humanity's. Our Trial in the Adatel where G-d is Judge, Satan is Procurator, the Angel of the Lord might be our Advocate, and the Morning Stars and Sons of G-d Assemble.

Judges: the men of Ninevah/the queen of the South/the disciples of the early Church

(the 24 elders, perhaps? or maybe the number will be 70 so as to be the Sanhedrin - overseen by the 'head' judge, or 'nasi' -

Nasi?
Nazi?

hmmm....

anyway, 'nasi' literally means 'prince' and was the title of the head priest of the Sanhedrin...and who will likely be established in the person/entity/soul of Aaron who was the first official light/fire bearer in the tabernacle as appointed by Moses under G.O.D.'s direction - Aaron is the best fit, name-wise, for 'Lucifer', BTW, and the light is truth - light is light and illuminates truth, whether from the nuclear process of our sun or from a manufactured halogen light-bulb.)

The Prosecutor (accuser): Moses!!

And yes...Christ and those who are His will be the defense attorneys...the 'advocates' for the accused!

Kangaroo court? Or a process toward spiritual maturation?

Whatever it is, it is planned and determined and at the end of the staged production, all will take a bow and then supper will be served.

We all have our parts to fulfill...and we will!

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Inanna, Ishtar, Ashtar, Aprodite, Venus etc are all the same.

Throw is Isis, Madonna, Estora etc. etc. etc.

Some 'mothers' and some 'daughters', Sun!

But in reality, just two?
Like the Father and the Son...

Languages do not alter the nature of the core - the confusion which began one day long ago at the site of a fallen ziggurat persists unto this very day....

If G.O.D. made all mankind (and I believe he did) then that means that we are all children of G.O.D. -
and for example, my name may be Hannah, Ann, or Grace, Joan, Janis, or even John!
....but yet they all mean the same!

Or Lucretia or Lucifer or Luke or Lucasta....same thing, once again!

A rose is a rose is a rose, is it not? And we are told specifically that there WILL be a NEW name! And yet there is just ONE NAME that saves! OLD or NEW the name is the same, essentially!

----------------------------

If there were no mother, there would be no womb, no birth, no life at all

...and if there were no daughter, there would be no bride

...no Son, no groom

...no Father, no estate!

Paul calls it 'the family of G.O.D.' because it is just that, a family! And it comprises all of mankind - from all ages and all lands and in every tongue every uttered or scriven!

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
G-d

Why do you spell God with G-d? Lol - conspiracy! jk

Good discussion. Mayber Lucifer was not the true name of Satan. Or was it?

Please bear with me on this, I believe some Old Testament passages in the Bible such as Esau & Jacob relate to the archangel Michael & Satan from Revelation, a kind of parables Jesus told in the New Testament. Though I believed that the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ now(www.creation-science-prophecy.com...). Jesus said the old would be the new.

In Job even Satan can enter the very presense of God. Wouldnt that be impossible for an enemy of God? Only few could have spoken to God or they would be instantly killed from His powerful presense. (Ark of the covenant). Then again Satan is an angel or spirit form.

God would not even let the people of Babel on earth build the tower to the heavens - by destroying it, let alone Satan to ascend above God. But the ascending passage was with the King of Babylon. So is it possible that Lucifer is a name for Satan? Can an angel ascend? Yes! Jacob spoke of angels ascending & descending in his dreams from God.

But then again...you never know I gave up the Bible and its sayings. Now I dont have to worry about angels or demons or ...HELL. Religion is to much for me.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by burnthemonkeyz1]

[edit on 19-8-2007 by burnthemonkeyz1]

There is no Diety so get that out of your mind right now. There is only one God and he came here in the form of a Holy Man to spread the word, he like all of us do, had a purpose and a goal. Lucifer was cast from heaven and set in stone by the mighty foot of St. Michael. Now, Lucifer is not even close to being the bearer of light so get that out of your mind right now also. AMEN!

reply to post by burnthemonkeyz1


"Though I believed that the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ now"

St. Michael is still an arch angel and is in charge of Sundays. St. Michael cast Satan(Lucifer) into the stone and out of heaven. St. Michael is not the "new" Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was a Holy Man sent here to spread the message, he is now the Holy Spirit that we refer to as God All Mighty. AMEN.

Pick up the Bible or ask your Christian Pastor. There ain't now two ways about it or any what if's this or that. The Bible is the word and it is how the Lord our All Mighty Savior has intended his word to be spread for the ages. If you truly accept God as your savior and Captain then you will feel his presence and know that he is REAL! Do you belong to a church or do you just come and go as you please?