Satan is not Lucifer.

Originally posted by ModernDystopia


Much like the yin and yang, the light and dark side, etc.

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." -Revelations 16:22

Both are one in the same, neither good or evil.

It's also interesting to note that the story/myth of the main Mayan god Quetzalcoatl almost identically parallel the story/myth of Jesus. Only difference is that when Quetzalcoatl passes on, he ignites himself and ascends into the sky, and becomes the morning star, or Venus.

Very, very interesting stuff.

How does that compare to the figure that is actually in the Bible, Helel Ben Shaher? Better yet what about all the various Goddesses? Venus, Aphrodite, Ashtar, Astarte, Ishtar, etc? Some are merely the goddesses of love and beauty. Others are goddesses of Carnal Lust including Blood Lust. I seem to be missing something.

[edit on 17/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Helel Ben Shahar translates to "Son of Dawn" - or Venus/The Morning Star.

As for the goddess Venus, the Babylonians named the planet "Ishtar" after the goddess of love and womanhood. The Romans then named the planet Venus, after their goddess of love and womanhood.

[edit on 17-8-2007 by ModernDystopia]

Originally posted by ModernDystopia
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

Helel Ben Shahar translates to "Son of Dawn" - or Venus/The Morning Star

I know that already. I seem to be missing the Venus angle. I have Mesopotamian goddesses on one hand who drink their father under the table to get power on earth, have legendary thirst for sex and blood, Greco-Roman deities who are more vane and less violent, a Jewish teacher from 2000 years ago, and an Aztec deity who brought wisdom. I am abit confused.

Originally posted by ModernDystopia

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

Lucifer, to me, has too many parallels to Jesus to ignore. They could be the two sides of the same entity.

Much like the yin and yang, the light and dark side, etc.

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." -Revelations 16:22

Both are one in the same, neither good or evil.

It's also interesting to note that the story/myth of the main Mayan god Quetzalcoatl almost identically parallel the story/myth of Jesus. Only difference is that when Quetzalcoatl passes on, he ignites himself and ascends into the sky, and becomes the morning star, or Venus.

Very, very interesting stuff.

I was intrigued by your bible quote, so I looked it up. What bible is that verse in? Its not in the KJAV nor the Good News Bible anyway, they both end at Rev 16:21.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


It basically goes like this. Babylonians called the planet Ishtar, after their goddess of love and womanhood. The Romans called the planet Venus, after their goddess of love and womanhood. The Greeks called the planet Phosphoros which translates to Latin as Lucifer and translates to English as Light Bringer. They later changed the name to Aphrodite, which is essentially the Greek version of the Roman goddess Venus.

Like I said earlier, Lucifer only became associated with Satan after St. Jerome and poets made the connection.

reply to post by BlackGuardXIII


I typed it wrong, my mistake. It's Revelations 22:16

Originally posted by ModernDystopia
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

It basically goes like this. Babylonians called the planet Ishtar, after their goddess of love and womanhood. The Romans called the planet Venus, after their goddess of love and womanhood. The Greeks called the planet Phosphoros which translates to Latin as Lucifer and translates to English as Light Bringer. They later changed the name to Aphrodite, which is essentially the Greek version of the Roman goddess Venus.

Like I said earlier, Lucifer only became associated with Satan after St. Jerome and poets made the connection.

Ishtar and Inanna are more like Kali than Venus or Aphrodite. What I see is different cultures with different ideas. Primarily female deities being identified with the planet we call in modern times Venus.

But this misses the whole point of My thread: Satan is not Lucifer.

I'll put it in these terms Satan is not Venus, Ishtar, Inanna, Lucifer, Helel, or Aphrodite.

Another thing is where is all of this Promethian or Lucifer/teacher mess coming from? None of these deities were anything like Prometheus.

Thanks for that, it is certainly a clear link between Lucifer and Jesus, and it is right there in the bible.
Most people would not think that the bible would link those two so clearly.
But then again, I had already felt there was a link. It is just one more example of where the bible's actual text is at odds with what Christians teach. Like the people who were around at the time of Adam and Eve, and the ten commandments saying there are other Gods, etc. Of course, I am told regularly that I am not qualified to interpret scripture. It is my experience to hear that whenever I tell Christians I feel that the most likely meaning is what is actually written down. Lots of times the experts, and the consensus view is that what is written actually means something else, like when it says teacher it means teacher, but when it says Rabbi, it means teacher, but only if it is referring to Jesus, etc.

to me this has always been the opposite of the holy trinity - similar to father, son and holy ghost. Also when someone changes in the bible so does their name. God always reassigns a new name with a new meaning.

Lucifer is the archangel in Heaven. Lucifer, leading a third of the Angels, starts a war in heaven which fails and he is cast down to earth.

Lucifer then becomes Satan a word meaning (adversary) and (accuser). Satan is the fallen angel.

Satan supposedly invisible to the people of earth will eventually rise and tak a form, which will be called, the Devil, the Beast or Antichrist. He is the embodiment of evil. The evil son.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Thanks for that, it is certainly a clear link between Lucifer and Jesus, and it is right there in the bible.
Most people would not think that the bible would link those two so clearly.
But then again, I had already felt there was a link. It is just one more example of where the bible's actual text is at odds with what Christians teach. Like the people who were around at the time of Adam and Eve, and the ten commandments saying there are other Gods, etc. Of course, I am told regularly that I am not qualified to interpret scripture. It is my experience to hear that whenever I tell Christians I feel that the most likely meaning is what is actually written down. Lots of times the experts, and the consensus view is that what is written actually means something else, like when it says teacher it means teacher, but when it says Rabbi, it means teacher, but only if it is referring to Jesus, etc.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star (aster orthrinos).

Aster Orthrinos is not Phosphoros.

I highly doubt there is a link between a Jewish teacher from 2000 years ago and a minor Greco/Roman deity. I just dont see it. Morning Stars in the Bible are already shown in Job to be a Class of Celestial Beings like the Seraphim or Kerubim. These Morning Stars are not related to the word Helel but are infact two Hebrew words one Stars kokawb and the other morning boquer.

This is just to much over simplification of unrelated words translated badly.

If your implying that Jesus and Satan are somehow connected there is simply no basis. It would be like comparing Gandhi to Shiva.

In Isaiah 14:12 various bibles use the term King of Babylonia, Lucifer, and Morning Star. Which is it? If it is not Lucifer, why would they use that name? Just curious about how the bible could end up containing verses that call both Lucifer and Jesus the morning star?

Originally posted by zerotime
to me this has always been the opposite of the holy trinity - similar to father, son and holy ghost. Also when someone changes in the bible so does their name. God always reassigns a new name with a new meaning.

Lucifer is the archangel in Heaven. Lucifer, leading a third of the Angels, starts a war in heaven which fails and he is cast down to earth.

Lucifer then becomes Satan a word meaning (adversary) and (accuser). Satan is the fallen angel.

Satan supposedly invisible to the people of earth will eventually rise and tak a form, which will be called, the Devil, the Beast or Antichrist. He is the embodiment of evil. The evil son.

Opposite? G-d has no opposite. Read Isaiah 45:7. There is no cosmic struggle with G-d. There is only humanity's struggle. The word Lucifer does not appear at all in the Bible. It is a Latin word, a Roman divinity. The actual word is Helel and refers to the King of Babylon in Prophecy.

There was absolutely no War in Heaven, at least not yet. For most Christians the Book of Revelations is Prophecy. The Following would be a Prophecy.

Rev 12:7-9
"7 Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back,
8
but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
9
The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it. "

Lucifer did not become anything. He was and still is a defunct Roman deity. Satan has not fallen.

There are other fallen Celestials but the Procurator is not one of them.

[edit on 17/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
In Isaiah 14:12 various bibles use the term King of Babylonia, Lucifer, and Morning Star. Which is it? If it is not Lucifer, why would they use that name? Just curious about how the bible could end up containing verses that call both Lucifer and Jesus the morning star?

You have angels in Job called morning stars. You have the King of Babylon called a morning star. You have Jesus being called a morning star. Yet these are all different words being translated as morning star.

Helel for the King of Babylon carries a mythological significance from Canaanite myth in a manner similar to Phophoros and Lucifer/Vesper. It is related to the planet Venus.

The Aster Orthrinos doesnt have the mythological implications of Phosphoros.

The Morning Stars of Job have nothing to do with Venus.



[edit on 17/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

They both sound evil to me!!

Are we saying that their are more thatn 1 to fear in the afterlife??

Originally posted by redseal
They both sound evil to me!!

Are we saying that their are more thatn 1 to fear in the afterlife??

No, Helel is simply the poetic name of a man in a prophecy who dies. Its just a dead guy or someone who will die.

Satan on the other hand deals with living people on earth not in the afterlife. Job and the High Priest in Zechariah were living people. The concept of Evil here is subjective.

From Satan's point of view he sees humans as Evil. From Cain murdering Abel, the lawlessness before the Flood, Sodom, Gomorrah and thats just Genesis. Look at the world today. Murders, Rape, Torture, and Violence. Humans can be quite sadistic, filthy, and ignorant. From Satan's point of view we are Vermin, Pests, Roaches, etc. He tries to prove that the only reason Job was loyal to G-d was because G-d had blessed Job. Job in a sense represents the Good in Humanity. Satan unlike G-d is not kind or merciful. G-d would of spared Sodom had Ten righteous people been in the city. Satan on the other hand doesnt separate the good from the bad. He's like the Medieval Inquisition: Kill them all, Let G-d sort them out.

Thankfully he cannot act on his own. He is not a free agent. Only if G-d wills it can he act. As in Job's case he was given Authority by G-d to act.
There is no reason to fear Satan.

There is only One that should be feared and that is G-d.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The King of Babylon in the prophecy could be the last King of Babylon before the Persian Empire conquered the Babylonian Empire. The Last King of Babylon was named Nabonidus.

No, afraid not. When you understand who the King of Babylon being talked about is.........then you should understand why Lucifer is Satan.

I would suggest that you find out who this Babylonian king is before you conclude that Lucifer is not Satan.



[edit on 17-8-2007 by Sun Matrix]

I wonder if anybody has read these yet:Lucifer-Where did the Word come from and what is its True Meaning?
What the Devil? Prince of Darkness Is Misunderstood, Says UCLA Professor
Its quite interesting indeed .
What else is misunderstood I wonder?

reply to post by olderuniverse


Yea.........the blind leading the blind. One point was brought out...the COUNTERFEIT light.

That is why Lucifer is the morning star...........as is Jesus. Lucifer is the counterfeit. Christ.........Antichrist.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The King of Babylon in the prophecy could be the last King of Babylon before the Persian Empire conquered the Babylonian Empire. The Last King of Babylon was named Nabonidus.

No, afraid not. When you understand who the King of Babylon being talked about is.........then you should understand why Lucifer is Satan.

I would suggest that you find out who this Babylonian king is before you conclude that Lucifer is not Satan.



[edit on 17-8-2007 by Sun Matrix]

I refuse to call the King of Babylon Lucifer, Its Helel, Helel, Helel.

Why would the Procurator of a Divine Court be the Mortal King of a Mortal Nation. Read the whole chapter in Context. I repeat in context it. It even calls Helel a Man.

Originally posted by olderuniverse
I wonder if anybody has read these yet:Lucifer-Where did the Word come from and what is its True Meaning?
What the Devil? Prince of Darkness Is Misunderstood, Says UCLA Professor
Its quite interesting indeed

.
What else is misunderstood I wonder?

Tons of things. There is so much Truthiness in The Church it is silly. Truthiness is a term Stephen Colbert uses on Comedy Central, the Colbert Report. It means basically what feels true rather than what is true.

In addition to who is Helel and who is Lucifer?
The Good and Evil question.
Who or What was the Serpent in Eden?
Who were the people Cain built the city of Enoch in the land of Nod for?
Who is the US and Our?
What is the difference between Eden and the rest of Earth?
Who were the Beni Elohim?
Who were the Nephilim?
Who were the beings that visited Abraham?
Who or what is Melchizedek?
Who or what is the Angel of the Lord?
Why did G-d judge the Egyptian deities?
What was the fire/cloud in the sky in the Sinai?
Who are these other "Celestials" allotted to the other nations?
Who are the Sarim who rule over the Seventy nations of men?
What is the Adatel?
What is Zephon?
Who are the Morning Stars?
What are Ofanim, the wheels of Ezekiel?
What is Satan?
Who is Azazel?
What are the Seirim?
What is Sheol?
What is Psalm 82?
What is Lilith?
Who is the Princes and Chiefs of Persia?
What is Michael, Prince of Judah?
What is the Book of Enoch?
What are Seraphim?
What are Kerubim?
What are Malakhim?
What are Shedim?
What are Angels?
What are Demons?
and I could go on and on and on about the various misunderstanding and misinterpretations.

The Truthiness is Oversimplification of a complex sysytem into something Dualistic. G-d is not Ormazd. Satan is not Ahriman. Judaism is not Zoroasterianism.









[edit on 18/8/07 by MikeboydUS]