Satan is not Lucifer.

reply to post by jakyll

God allows him?? why the hell does god allow him?? why are we suffering and why is there are war?? correct me if i'm wrong but satan(as you believe) is an archangel,yes? and god is "all powerful"?? are you telling me that god cannot kill or imprison an angel!?! it makes no sence!! if god "allows" all this misery,suffering,torture,deprivation and slaughter then maybe he's not the god you think he is! or maybe he is not as powerful as you believe!

There was an age before this one in which Satan rebelled and took 1/3 of God's children with him. God could have killed them/us all but He didn't. Instead He destroyed that heaven and earth age, not earth but the age. We are to be born in this second age as a test to see who we will follow, Satan or God, so He allows Satan to tempt us and gives him certain powers over this world. He is called prince of this world for that reason.

This 2nd age started about 14,000 years ago and that is what the Gen. 1:2 account is about. There are references to the first age but it is not commonly taught. If it were, so much more would be understood. Where a person is in this age, I believe, had a great deal to do with what they did in the first age. In other words, they controlled their destiny just as we do now for the next age. It was our choice in both ages - free will.

So... God is strong enough to imprison an archangel, which is what He will do to Satan through the millennium. He won't kill him because Satan still has a job to do. When this age ends everyone will be judged as far as where they will spend the millennium, on one or the other side of a gulf (not in hell, unless you would consider being able to see others with Christ on the other side a type of hell - I would.) They will be taught during that time without any influence of Statan but he will be released for a short time at it's end to test them again. That is the final test!

I don't want to knock anyones faith,but i cannot believe or worship in a god that would allow such atrocities to happen.(to believers and non-believers.)especially as all you get is,"in the next life it will be better.!" screw the next life,ppl are suffering now! and you believe its ok for your god to allow that!

While we are in flesh, while we are in an age that is full of evil, there will be suffering for some and physical death for all. Our job is to fight this spiritual war by planting seeds of God's Word and trying to make the world the best we can while we are here, for us and others.

If you need documentation for these ideas I would be happy to provide them. I just don't know if this is something you will disregard or be interested in. Either way, according to His Word, it is true.

............Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


It doesn't matter what picture you paint,the story behind it is the same.God has all the power! God could've stopped it all before it began! God did not have to let the war get out've control,but he did! God could've stopped Satan getting into the garden of eden,but he didn't! God does not have to let Satan do anything! the list is endless!

Its so easy to say that this is his plan etc.that satan must rule for a while etc.because that explains away the misery in the world.but if i was God,i would not allow some rebel angel to go about causing trouble to my beloved creation! i'd kick his ass! i'd banish him to the furthest reaches of the universe.and for those on earth who were "corrupted" i'd simply wave my hand and it would be as if it had never happened!

You can share anything you want with me mate,as i love to learn,but i'll never believe in the god that exists in the bible.and i'll never believe in satan.why? because,quite simply,i know too much about the history of christianity.if you read the ancient books and scriptures that are available you will see what i mean.this religion has changed radically over the centuries.its gone so far that its not even a paler version of itself anymore!

I believe jesus was a prophet,but not that he was the son of god.and,as this thread states,satan and lucifer are not one and the same.as i mentioned earlier,satan is a title of government official.there are satans in heaven today passing judgement on ppl! Christianity created an evil nemesis so they could scare ppl,control them etc.the evidence for this is all around you in books such as A History Of The Devil by Gerald Massadie. it was also a way of explaining why ppl suffered.no christian wants to point a finger at god and say its his fault! but is is,because he has created all.and mankind should not suffer when he has the power to end it here and now,this very second!!

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by Sun Matrix

 

Very true....though i should point out i don't believe in god or the devil.if you look at earlier christianity and judaism there was no "evil being" that could get the better of god on a constant and regular basis! believers in christianity have made a humble arch-angel into a god with enough power to rival the almighty!!

These kind of comments get passed around on the net and take life. They usually are spawned by a "know nothing" book writer who discounts the facts.

Baal worship has roots to Babylon. Baal is Lucifer, Lucifer is Satan. The Jews were well aware of who Baal is. This was nothing the Christians made up.

You said look at earlier Christianity and there is no evil being.........that's just plain wrong. Look at the writing of Paul and John. If I need to provide quotes, let me know.

reply to post by Sun Matrix


I love to read!
And if something interests me i will read everyones point of view,not just those that i agree with! And many times i have been proved wrong! but thats what learning is all about!

What i ment when i said there was no evil being in christianity in the early days,was that it wasn't satan,it was not personified as lucifer.this was added into the bible at a later date.don't forget as well,a lot of the bible comes from hebrew scriptures,and there is no evil being in their faith!


Can i just ask.if you believe in Baal,allbeit as another personification of satan,does that mean you believe in the gods and goddesses of pagan religions?? just curious,because a friend of mine in america that believes that these faiths were based around angels sent to earth to be guides for mankind.

reply to post by Sun Matrix


oh,and as you seem to have a great hatred against all things babylonian,and you mention only male gods.what do you think of the much earlier worship of mother goddess/earth?? no name has been given to this faith,but evidence exists all around the mediterranian and part of the middle east.its a faith that predates all,from hinduism to zorothustranism.

Originally posted by whirlwind
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

You know the bit about the King of Tyre is a prophecy not history. If it had been written as history which it wasnt, Eden was not created yet for your hypothetical pre creation. On top of that Eden was most likely created after the Sixth day.

Mike, I believe it is both history and prophecy. God teaches the future through what has happened. 1Cori.10:11 - Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Your quoting the King of Babylon again. The bit about the 1/3 of the angels is prophecy too in Revelations. The Dragon is trying to stop what appears to be the Birth of the Messiah in the prophecy.

He can't stop what has already taken place. 1/3 followed him in the first age and in this age he tried to stop the birth of the Messiah. He first attempted that in the garden.

Where did you get this ages idea?

Some of the scriptures I have given. Here are a few of the others.

Jeremiah 4:22 For My people is foolish, they have not known Me, they are sottish children and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23.I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was (became) without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Earth and heaven became without form and void. God created it to be inhabited but it became void (Isa 45:18)

24.I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25.I beheld, and lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
This is NOT Noah's flood as here there was NO MAN and NO BIRDS.

26.I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger.
27.For thus hath the Lord said, "the whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end".

He shook the earth and flooded it. When Satan next makes his appearance, Gen. 3:1, in the garden it is after the creation of Adam and Eve and long after his rebellion.

What I write next isn't scripture but the "Book of Jasher" is quoted twice in the Old Testament (Joshua 10:13 & 2Samuel 1:18). Some credence therefore should probably be given this. Jasher, speaking of the creation (Jasher was the son of Caleb, a contemporary of Moses) says in 1:4-5

And the abyss fled before the face of the light, and divided between
the light and the darkness. So that the face of nature was
formed a second time.

Another clue to this first age is given in Gen. 1:28 when God told them to "replenish" the earth, not plenish it. Still another is found in 11Corin.12:2:

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.

If this tells us of the third heaven then we must be in the second age. If there is a second age there had to be a first age. Heaven is singular here as it is a new beginning.

The "foundation" of this world is spoken of by Jesus in Matt.13:35:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

Foundation is katabole - overthrow, casting down, disruption, ruin. The earth became tohu and bohu (ie. waste and desolate) and darkness was on the face of the deep before the heavens and earth which are now.(2Pet.3:7)

This isn't something people must believe for their salvation but it does bring more understanding of scripture, at least it does for me.

.....Whirlwind

Jeremiah 4:22 which you completely took out of context has nothing to do with Creation. G-d is announcing his anger to Judah. G-d is telling Judah that the Earth is in Chaos.

Read the whole text it begins in Jeremiah 4:3

The quote from Isaiah is also out of context. Its a prophecy for the Persian Emperor Cyrus. G-d plainly says He created the Earth to be Inhabited which it is Inhabited. Nothing about any Precreation here.

The Serpent in Genesis is a Creature of the Garden not Satan or any of the other Host of Heaven. Nahash is a Naga like creature.

I see no replenish in Gen 1:28, you must thinking of after the Flood when G-d instructed Noah.

You do realize the Numbered Heavens have nothing to do with any past Creations. They are like Planes or Levels. There are supposed to be Seven Heavens or Seven Levels of it.



[edit on 29/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

Well we have been moved. I feared that. My original intention in starting the thread was not Flame bait. The point of Posting in the Conspiracies in Religion was because it plainly is a Conspiracy in Religion. People have used Satan as an excuse to kill and torture People. It still goes on to this day.

Somehow though this thread was considered to not be Conspiracy related material. The History of the Roman Church is filled with Conspiracy. The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, The Crusades, Conspiracy against Jews and non Roman Catholics throughout the Middle Ages, against Scientists in the Middle Ages, and who can forget the Jesuits? Lets not forget the Ratlines after World War 2 and Nazis being funneled into South America too. Dont forget P2, Gladio, and even the Child Abuse mess.

In modern times there still are conspiracies within the Church from the Charismatic movements and Prosperity Ministries conspiring to get Church members to empty their bank accounts so that Ministers can live in Multi Million dollar homes, drive $400,000 cars, and multi million dollar private jets.

Maybe I should of went into detail about the Conspiracies to use Satan to kill, steal, and destroy.

You dont have to be a Theist to see what's happened in history. You can be a complete Atheist or Agnostic and see that Humans conspired to kill, steal, and destroy using Satan as an excuse to do it.

That was my point in posting this to the Conspiracies in Religion forum. I was hoping to Deny Ignorance.





[edit on 29/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by jakyll

What i ment when i said there was no evil being in christianity in the early days,was that it wasn't satan,it was not personified as lucifer.this was added into the bible at a later date.don't forget as well,a lot of the bible comes from hebrew scriptures,and there is no evil being in their faith!

Christ refers to Satan and his offspring and that's the earliest Christianity can be:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Hebrew scriptures are the Bible. There is an evil being from the beginning. The first prophecy in the Bible was about him:

Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.....
15.And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel.

Can i just ask.if you believe in Baal,allbeit as another personification of satan,does that mean you believe in the gods and goddesses of pagan religions?? just curious,because a friend of mine in america that believes that these faiths were based around angels sent to earth to be guides for mankind.

You asked this question to Sun Matrix but if you don't mind I'm going to stick my .02 cents in. Any pagan deity is just another form of Satan. Anything that we worship other than God is idolatry. They are all the same, no matter what they're called or when they came about or what religion they're from. They mean nothing, they are nothing but false religion.


......Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


So your saying that even deities that were connected to love,peace,family,hearth,vegetation,music,poetry etc etc are all evil? are all connected with satan?

If the christian faith didn't exist as a fully formed religion until the time of jesus,how can they be considered evil and false? how can the believers be cosidered wrong and mislead? after all,they knew nothing else.its not as if they turned their backs on christianity is it? it didn't exist for them to do that!




And to mikeboyd.sorry your thread got moved mate.i know what your trying to show ppl,but i guess the powers of ATS don't.silly buggers.lol.

reply to post by MikeboydUS

Jeremiah 4:22 which you completely took out of context has nothing to do with Creation. G-d is announcing his anger to Judah. G-d is telling Judah that the Earth is in Chaos.....Read the whole text it begins in Jeremiah 4:3

It isn't out of context at all. The subject begins in 22 where God tells us His children are a bit stupid and don't know what happened from before, the end of the 1st age. God is telling them the earth WAS in chaos, because of His fierce anger and that it will happen again.

The quote from Isaiah is also out of context. Its a prophecy for the Persian Emperor Cyrus. G-d plainly says He created the Earth to be Inhabited which it is Inhabited. Nothing about any Precreation here.

The point I was making with Is.45:18 is that God Himself tells us that He created it not in vain. It was not created a chaotic mess, as it was at the beginning of Genesis.

The Serpent in Genesis is a Creature of the Garden not Satan or any of the other Host of Heaven. Nahash is a Naga like creature.

The serpent, Nachash, a shining one, is an angel - The Fallen Angel - Satan. He is not a talking snake.

Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

He was called "the old serpent" as he went all the way back to the beginning, the garden - the serpent of old.

I see no replenish in Gen 1:28, you must thinking of after the Flood when G-d instructed Noah.

Gen.1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth and subdue it.........

You do realize the Numbered Heavens have nothing to do with any past Creations. They are like Planes or Levels. There are supposed to be Seven Heavens or Seven Levels of it.

Where did you find that in the scriptures?


........Whirlwind

reply to post by jakyll

So your saying that even deities that were connected to love,peace,family,hearth,vegetation,music,poetry etc etc are all evil? are all connected with satan?

The first of the 10 Commandments is:
Ex.20:2. I AM The Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
4.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5.Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

If it is not of God then all things that are or have been worshipped are of Satan. Why would someone worship anything else when God made everything? How would you feel if you did everything for your children and then see them bowing down to a stick of wood?

If the christian faith didn't exist as a fully formed religion until the time of jesus,how can they be considered evil and false? how can the believers be cosidered wrong and mislead? after all,they knew nothing else.its not as if they turned their backs on christianity is it? it didn't exist for them to do that!

Christianity is from Judaism. The laws have been with us from the time of Moses and God has instructed His children throughout the Old Testament on what they should and should not do. Idolatry, the worship of any idol, He compares to adultery. That is how He feels about it.



............Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


Aye,i know all that.

But do you understand that there have been times in history,as during the modern voyages of discovery,where ppl/civilisasions had never even heard of god almighty,or jesus,or jews.for them they didn't exist.so thats my point,if your ignorant of gods existence,how can you be classed as evil? how can your faith be classed as evil when it is all you know.for example,buddhist monks in china knew nothing of jesus for centuries.the moaris and aboriginys of australia and new zealand knew nothing of jesus for centuries.vikings knew nothing of gods for centuries...its an endless list! do you see what i mean?


""Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.""

always found this line interesting.do you notice the word god is plural.suggests that the almighty was not the only god,but he would be worshipped as the leader of all.a bit like zeus or odin!!

Originally posted by whirlwind
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

Jeremiah 4:22 which you completely took out of context has nothing to do with Creation. G-d is announcing his anger to Judah. G-d is telling Judah that the Earth is in Chaos.....Read the whole text it begins in Jeremiah 4:3

It isn't out of context at all. The subject begins in 22 where God tells us His children are a bit stupid and don't know what happened from before, the end of the 1st age. God is telling them the earth WAS in chaos, because of His fierce anger and that it will happen again.

The quote from Isaiah is also out of context. Its a prophecy for the Persian Emperor Cyrus. G-d plainly says He created the Earth to be Inhabited which it is Inhabited. Nothing about any Precreation here.

The point I was making with Is.45:18 is that God Himself tells us that He created it not in vain. It was not created a chaotic mess, as it was at the beginning of Genesis.

The Serpent in Genesis is a Creature of the Garden not Satan or any of the other Host of Heaven. Nahash is a Naga like creature.

The serpent, Nachash, a shining one, is an angel - The Fallen Angel - Satan. He is not a talking snake.

Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

He was called "the old serpent" as he went all the way back to the beginning, the garden - the serpent of old.

I see no replenish in Gen 1:28, you must thinking of after the Flood when G-d instructed Noah.

Gen.1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth and subdue it.........

You do realize the Numbered Heavens have nothing to do with any past Creations. They are like Planes or Levels. There are supposed to be Seven Heavens or Seven Levels of it.

Where did you find that in the scriptures?


........Whirlwind

In Jeremiah G-d says the Earth Is in Chaos.

"I look at the Earth. It is Tohu Va'Bohu. At the Skies, and their Light is gone. I look at the mountains, They are quaking, and all of the hills are rocking."

So Moses turned Aaron's staff into an Angel?

The Serpent Nachash is described as Chayah, a living creature. That is important. This is not a Spirit or one of the Hosts, but a living creature in the Garden. A creature with seed or offspring too.


Gen 1:28 " G-d blessed them and G-d said to them, "Be fertile and increase, fill the earth and master it, and rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and all of the living things that creep upon the earth."

Heres some bits on the Seven Heavens.

www.ucalgary.ca...





[edit on 29/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by whirlwind
reply to post by jakyll

 

So your saying that even deities that were connected to love,peace,family,hearth,vegetation,music,poetry etc etc are all evil? are all connected with satan?

The first of the 10 Commandments is:
Ex.20:2. I AM The Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
4.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5.Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

If it is not of God then all things that are or have been worshipped are of Satan. Why would someone worship anything else when God made everything? How would you feel if you did everything for your children and then see them bowing down to a stick of wood?

If the christian faith didn't exist as a fully formed religion until the time of jesus,how can they be considered evil and false? how can the believers be cosidered wrong and mislead? after all,they knew nothing else.its not as if they turned their backs on christianity is it? it didn't exist for them to do that!

Christianity is from Judaism. The laws have been with us from the time of Moses and God has instructed His children throughout the Old Testament on what they should and should not do. Idolatry, the worship of any idol, He compares to adultery. That is how He feels about it.



............Whirlwind

I have brought thee out of Egypt, you shall have no gods before Me.

Note two things here:

One: He is talking to the Israelites, He brought out of Egypt.

Two: He is the G-d of Israel. He brought Israel out of Egypt and thus Israel is His alone. He isnt talking to Egypt or any other Gentile Nation which has been alloted the Host of Heaven. Israel is forbidden to worship or follow the Host.

"And beware not to lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the LORD your G-d has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven." Deuteronomy 4:19



[edit on 29/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

About other Gods (in the last days):

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
For all people will walk every one in the name of his god,
and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
Micah 4:4-5

FREEDOM OF CHOICE! FREEDOM OF RELIGION!
Promised by the God of Israel!

And about Babylon:

Be in pain, and labor to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field,
and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered;
there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
Micah 4:10

Where is deliverance going to take place?

IN BABYLON!!

God said, in Jeremiah chapter 27, that all nations must serve the King of Babylon. He never changed that order, either.

And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.
And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him.
Jeremiah 27:6-7

Jeremiah backs it up:

Hearken not unto them;
serve the king of Babylon, and live:
wherefore should this city be laid waste?
Jeremiah 27:17

This made his audience so mad that they put him in stocks (for punishment)!! BUT, yet, Hananiah, who prophesied the OPPOSITE of what Jeremiah said, was in favor with the people...however he died because he taught rebellion against what God said.

Then said the prophet Jeremiah unto Hananiah the prophet,
Hear now, Hananiah; The LORD hath not sent thee; but thou makest this people to trust in a lie.
Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.
So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month.
Jeremiah 28:15-17

Jeremiah chapter 28

[edit on 8/29/2007 by queenannie38]

reply to post by queenannie38


Have you ever thought that the name Babylon has been used in the bible as a metaphor for Rome??
Babylon and then Assyria may have gone to war with the ppl of Judah,but under Cyrus the Great(called messiah by the jews.) of the Persian empire the jews were returned to their homeland.the kings who followed Cyrus did as he did;respected other ppl's gods!

It wasn't until Roman rule that the province of Judah once more became a fighting ground.at this time Parthia ruled over the area that once was Babylons domain,and they were never in conflict with Judah,only Rome.
And,as you no doubt know,the Romans desecrated many holy sites,robbed Judah of its treasures and its ancient relics etc etc.
In the time of Jesus,it was Rome who was the threat,Rome persecuted jews and the newly emerging christians.could not the emperor be the new "whore of babylon"? after all,babylon would never have power again,but Rome went on ruling for several more centuries.and up until Constantine the Great,christians were persecuted.(the next great power in that area was Byzantium.so the name Babylon can be used to represent Constantinople/Istanbul.)

In Revelation 17 it talks of a beast with 7 heads and says,"" The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."" that doesn't sound like the land of Babylon,but everyone knows that Rome has 7 hills!!

reply to post by queenannie38

About other Gods (in the last days):

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
For all people will walk every one in the name of his god,
and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
Micah 4:4-5...FREEDOM OF CHOICE! FREEDOM OF RELIGION!
Promised by the God of Israel!

There is only one God and everyone will walk in the name of that one God, forever and ever. To not think that goes against all other scripture on that important subject. Would He allow other gods to be worshipped in the millennium or eternity when that is what He so warns us against throughout this age?

And about Babylon: ...Be in pain, and labor to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field,
and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered;
there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
Micah 4:10

Where is deliverance going to take place?...IN BABYLON!!

God said, in Jeremiah chapter 27, that all nations must serve the King of Babylon. He never changed that order, either.

And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.
And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him.
Jeremiah 27:6-7

Jeremiah backs it up:

Hearken not unto them;
serve the king of Babylon, and live:
wherefore should this city be laid waste?
Jeremiah 27:17

Babylon, bable/confusion, is being void of the knowledge of God. The one that does that is the king of Babylon and that is Satan. The ones in history are types for The King of Babylon, Satan.

Jeremiah was instructing God's children that they were to go into captivity, God wanted them to do this. He warned that the King of Babylon was coming (just as Satan will come in the end of days). They were to go into captivity to him, just as we will be taken by Satan in the end of days - "serve the king of Babylon, and live". All nations will be under him but we, as Christians, cannot "serve" him:

Rev. 20:4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

All nations will serve him (Satan), as there will be a one world system under his control. The daughter of Zion, will go to Babylon and be delivered from her enemies. How will that happen? God's elect will speak God's truth in Jerusalem (the Holy Spirit will speak through them) and "even the gainsayers cannot resist" Luke 21:15. Then the 2nd Advent happens and Babylon is no more.


.........Whirlwind

reply to post by MikeboydUS

In Jeremiah G-d says the Earth Is in Chaos.

"I look at the Earth. It is Tohu Va'Bohu. At the Skies, and their Light is gone. I look at the mountains, They are quaking, and all of the hills are rocking."

Jere.4:23. I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form......
24.I beheld the mountains....
25.I beheld, and, lo, there was no man.......
26.I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness......

I Beheld, not I Behold. This was from the first age.

So Moses turned Aaron's staff into an Angel? ....The Serpent Nachash is described as Chayah, a living creature. That is important. This is not a Spirit or one of the Hosts, but a living creature in the Garden. A creature with seed or offspring too.

Satan, the serpent, is a living creature. He had offspring, just as the fallen angels did.

Heres some bits on the Seven Heavens....www.ucalgary.ca...

Thank you for that link but it isn't scripture. The thoughts are those of men, traditions of men, that God warns us of. Jesus said that He foretold us of all things and as far as I know the only other heaven I know of is the 3rd heaven Paul told us he was taken to. That, to me, is the one that follows this age.



.......Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


the Seven Heavens is scripture.it exists in islam and judaism.i don't know how to add a link,but you might find this site interesting.www.steliart.com

don't forget,the bible is not the only book of scriptures in the christian faith.

Originally posted by jakyll
but everyone knows that Rome has 7 hills!!

The Earth has seven continents, too!

Bucharest, Romania, also has seven hills:
Mihai Vodă
Patriarchy Hill
Radu Vodă
Cotroceni
Spirei
Văcăreşti
Sf. Gheorghe Nou

There is also a Seven Hills in Australia as well in Ohio.
Lisbon, Portugal is known as the 'City of Seven Hills.'