Learn from the fall of Rome, US warned

Originally posted by the_sentinal
Nice touch, with the presidential seal on the guitar, but the nero comment was kinda off, nero took christians and set them on fire, and used them as human torches, I dont think Bush has it in him to do such a thing, I hope not anyway.

How about condoned torture in guantanamo?

Originally posted by mmmuuuumy

Originally posted by nixie_nox
Someone has come out with a novel recently about the correlations between the US and Rome. I heard an interview on it and it is eerily similar. Same thing, that we are headed for trouble. Rome basically fell from power hungry in-fighting among leaders. Sound familiar?

I *think* this might be the book you are talking about:

Are We Rome?: The Fall of an Empire and the Fate of America by Cullen Murphy

www.amazon.com...

Mr Murphy was featured on the Book TV segment of one of the C-SPAN channels after the release of his book. I haven't read it yet, it sounds like he addresses a lot of the issues raised in this thread though.

Thank you! I might have to get it, seems to be getting pretty good reviews.
I like that at the end of the book he doesn't give a doomsday prophecy but says there is still time to change.

Areal51,

You replied to my comment about the Constitution and pornograpy.
You stated:

"...it should be okay for someone to make a living showing people how to have fun putting people back on the planet Earth. "

I doubt you believe that any of these people consider themselves sex instructors, but as I stated earlier in my original post:

One of the reasons cited for our fall is declining moral values.
Well, when you have certain people who have the "Don't preach your morality to me" attitude and these people feel that nothing they do is "wrong" then what is there to do?

Thank you. I think you reinforced my point, which was not about pornography.

Declining Moral Values:

It seems to me that one of the big isssues here is: What is a Moral Value?

Some things we should all be able to readily agree upon, e.g. Murder is bad, stealing is bad, etc. These things, if comitted, produce a disruption in the machinations of society and lead to disorder if unchecked.

Some, however, seem to feel that the definition should be expanded to included such subjectively offensive actions such as sodomy (horrors!) or drinking alcohol (shudder!). Where is the line drawn?

The problem with Rome, aka USA, is that some people have lost that any sense of boundary or deliniation. We are progressing more and more to a "Whatever feels good" society, much as ancient Rome did. That does not however mean, as Free People, we need to regulate every behavior. We now seem unable to make such definitons and that in and of itself is a bad sign.

Originally posted by QuickSilver_2005GT
Areal51,

You replied to my comment about the Constitution and pornograpy.
You stated:

"...it should be okay for someone to make a living showing people how to have fun putting people back on the planet Earth. "

I doubt you believe that any of these people consider themselves sex instructors, but as I stated earlier in my original post:

actually, some people do, and many couples who are in a slump use it to enhance their sex life. Zoologists use animal porn(especially our cousins, the chimp) to try to get less then zealous animals to mate.

One of the reasons cited for our fall is declining moral values.
Well, when you have certain people who have the "Don't preach your morality to me" attitude and these people feel that nothing they do is "wrong" then what is there to do?

Are you referring to just morality or religious morality?
If you are referring to religious reality, that is a discussion for another time.

It is not entirely the peoples fault that we are desensitized and lost our empathy for others. Just watch television and count how many acts of violence we witness, many on childrens shows.

I watch tv with my toddler in mind, so he doesn't get nightmares. Which means any act of violence is bad. You should see how many channels I have to flip through to find something safe. Oftentimes, it is QVC! Oh , a channel selling us something.

We are BOMBARDED, a word that doesn't hold the entire meaning, of how much we are advertised too. Telling us we need need need need need junk. Stuff, to be beautiful, sexy,wealthy, and everything but being happy, and that makes others happy.

Then we insist on living in each of our own McMansions for the excuese of privacy and needing room to hold all our crap. instead of living, sharing, communicating with our families. We have both parents working, not spending time with their children, not preparing healthy meals, not involved with the community, because we need big tvs, cars, cable, lavish vacations,and high end clothing instead of just the neccessities. We watch tv and participate in sporting events instead of volunteering for a local non-profit, helping homeles, etc.

As a result of our desire for cheap and useless junk, we have created a narcissitic society that is only focused on what the individual wants, instead of what society needs.

We are not all like this. My best friend and I have decided that the best thing for us to do together is to do volunteer work as our outings instead of dumping too much money into a bad movie. It is not only enjoyable, but a learning experience and we help others.
I advise family members to do the same.
This year, instead of buying people junk for the holidays, I will be making a donation for each of them to a charity.

As soon as my son is old enough, I plan on making a Saturday routine of volunteering at a horse rescue up the street so he can learn the value of caring for another creature that has been neglected or hurt by someone else.
When some supposed religious person starts about how things would be better if there were prayers in school, I swiftly put them in their place. A lot of the people who commit atrocities are old enough to have had prayer in school. I ask them, do you shop at walmart? you do? so is prayer going to help all the Indionesians that just made your clothes in sweatshops that don't have childlabor laws? Do you recycle? NO? What was the last charity act you did? you can't remember? Doesn't God help those who help themselves? hyprocrites.

If everyone stopped whining about how bad society is, and started leading by example, there wouldn't be so many issues of morality.

Originally posted by QuickSilver_2005GT I doubt you believe that any of these people consider themselves sex instructors...

Well, when you have certain people who have the "Don't preach your morality to me" attitude and these people feel that nothing they do is "wrong" then what is there to do?

What I did was use your example of pornography for the purpose of argument. My argument does not cover "these people feel that nothing they do is 'wrong'". What my argument covers is a persons right to make a living at whatever they choose to do. Typically people make the best living they can out of the best that they can do. So, as far as morality is concerned, a nuclear physicist should be able to design nuclear weapons if that is what will enable him to survive, and a porn actress should be able to to make pornographic movies. It's true there have been "No Nukes" movements just as there have been movements against porn that have been led by Tipper Gore. The thing is both practices, building nuclear weapons for use by the U.S. military and pornographic materials for use by any adult who enjoys it, is protected by the Constitution and by federal, state, and local laws. Some municipalities, at least as far as porn is concerned, have made porn illegal. So there is a certain amount of flexiblity built into the American system of government.

I did not posit an argument that folks can just go out and start blowing people's brains out. Nor did I pose an argument that's favorable to rapists, or other types of sex offenders. What I did was pose an argument that highlight's the ability of adult U.S. citizen to choose their own law abiding course of living what they determine to be a fulfilling life. There are lots of people who choose to destroy their lives, well, the Constitution protects them, too. Although, I wouldn't say that the Constitution encourages self-destruction. If one happens to be religious then that provides another level that helps individuals to moderate their behavior. Still, though, no has to be religious if they do not want to be, and even God has decreed that. And so along those lines, why should men be able to dictate what other men can and cannot do?

There in fact is a moral dilemma that every civilization faces. However, we, being human, our sense of morality changes all of the time. There was a time when corporate monopolies were wrong because they were not in the best interest of the common good. Well, corporate monopolies are normal these days. That doesn't mean that they're beneficial, it just means that they're normal. There's so much dysfunction in the middle class these days that I don't even know where to start. However, this level of dysfunction is viewed as normal. And when I analyze the situation the dysfunction has a lot to do with unexpressed ideas, talents, and desires. Folks are pent up about money. They're pent up about not living their dreams. They're pent up about the sins that their parents visited upon them when they were children. They're pent up about their health and their looks. And many are pent up about sex. The jury is out on what makes people snap, but it's common knowledge that too much stress about anything is not a good thing. Some folks physically collapse, some have a nervous breakdown, some withdraw from society, some folks go on a rampage. Many, many of these folks represent the middle class. This is not to that the elite and lower class are excluded from these same sorts of problems.

Moral crisis? Of course there's a moral crisis. Much of the moral crisis has to do with folks not taking responsibility for their own welfare. In my opinion, if there's a number one sin, it's folks not living their lives as they see fit. Civilization cannot withstand irresponsible citizens.

Anyway, someone doesn't have to be teaching in order for one to learn something.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by Areal51]

All the talk about "moral values" ignores the obvious fact that people have very different ideas about what "moral values" are - to me, Enron execs bilking grannies out of their savings and our country bombing hapless third-worlders into charred paste in order to ensure access to their oil are far more pressing moral problems than pornography or what two consenting adults choose to do in the privacy of their own bedroom...

Moral values aside, I think that the OP was looking for a more generalized comparison of Rome and the U.S.
I would exhort any moderators to give instructions to get this back on line and save an interesting thread, before it degenerates into: "Are homosexuals destroying America?" or such like.

Originally posted by TruthWithin
Poetics Forgiven! EXCELLENT post. Did you write that or find it somewhere?

Thanks very much TruthWithin, very much appreciated. It's actually something I wrote six months ago for my now-moribund blog and adapted for here. The parallels between Rome and our present state are just so compelling that you simply can't help but write something along these lines on a slow news week.

Originally posted by Now_Then
Did Rome have nukes?

Oh dear - this time it's really gonna end in tears. What were Romes death throws like? If they had WMD's would someone of panicked and hit the big red button?

They may have since they were overwhelmed with lead poisoning from the water supply late in the empires time line. Now all we need here in the US are massive quantities of lead in our water supply and we may see the same fate as Rome did.

Though there are many reasons the roman empire fell , one theory is that they suffered from lead poisoning which clouded thier decision making process and contributed to thier demise. Picture generals and senate members going out of thier minds trying to defend against thier enemies. I think lead poisoning was a major reason the ROman empire failed when it did. MY opinion of course.....

Originally posted by grover
PLEEZZZZE!!! Study your history. We need no elite plotting our demise (they more than anyone else know which side the bread is buttered on and have a vested interest in continuity) or anything else like that to cause our fall. Civilizations fall for two reasons.... the fail because they have depleted their resources or because they cease to inspire. In short part of the reason a civilization falls in physical and part is spiritual.

No cultural form is permanent. Even the ancient Egyptian civilization which is the longest lasting we know about, 3000 + years finally wore out and ceased to inspire and motivate and ultimately, that led to its demise. The Chinese and Hindu remain because both are almost infinitely flexible within their cultural patterns and continue to adapt.

When a civilization and its founding myths and ideals cease to inspire, that civilization begins to die. It happened to Egypt and it happened to Rome. The barbarians only had to push and the whole facade crumbled.

The other reason, depletion of resources has also been a major fall of a civilization's collapse... the Maya being the classic example; and that, in the long run is our biggest threat, not terrorists or anything like that.

The depletion of resources, and a failure to address the fiscal and social crises looming on our horizon will do us in yet.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by grover]

Gorver right on track my friend, I absolutly agree in whole to this post. This is why America is now pushing in the middle east to control the resources we need to continue our way of life. Russia and China will be doing the same thing very soon, Well Russia has started it with the flag under the north pole. (lol) and China IMO is on Irans side when we try and take control over thier resources. I dont see any good coming out of this resource grab. Could be what we all fear in the future, an all out war for oil......... IT HAS STARTED BY THE WAY !!!!

Take care

Originally posted by geemony
Gorver right on track my friend, I absolutly agree in whole to this post. This is why America is now pushing in the middle east to control the resources we need to continue our way of life. Russia and China will be doing the same thing very soon, Well Russia has started it with the flag under the north pole. (lol) and China IMO is on Irans side when we try and take control over thier resources. I dont see any good coming out of this resource grab. Could be what we all fear in the future, an all out war for oil......... IT HAS STARTED BY THE WAY !!!!

Take care

The bad part about this global grab for the remaining few sources for oil is that the leaders who see no other option but to bully their way in the power struggle, will ultimately see this as a "do or die" senerio and be more likely to resort to nuclear means seeing that the end is near anyway, I know this sounds bad but in my opinion some in Washington would have no problem taking the rest of the world down with them as things become more hopeless in the eyes.