Learn from the fall of Rome, US warned

Political corruption,apathetic populace,demoralization,over-extended military,economic failure,unemploymen.Its quite easy to see why we are being compared to the same decline as rome suffered.As ive said before its to bad we dont have a leader here with the courage to oppose this system of failure and eventual national doom.

I just wonder what the society would be like without the circus act.

It depends what you consider to be the circus. I personally consider the circus to be specific medias; the television, the newspapers, and the magazines. I didn't include the radio, because there's a lot of people bashing the government on the radio, so I assume the government does not control, or does not care, about what is said on the radio, probably because it's impact is tiny right now compared to the other medias.

Furthermore, I consider the whole economic system to be a circus aswell. By example, the job we choose for our life is directly linked to the economic system. Since we are little children, we have been directed and taught to be slaves to the economic, profit-based, system. Mandatory school by example. And government's supporters have done an extremely good job at convincing people school was important. I find this extremely funny. Let me explain you the irony of the situation. Each children going into our schools right now does nothing more than learn knowledge, absorb information that the governments have chosen for those children to learn. By example, they tell those children that the earth is round, and not hollow, and they will present that information as an ultimate and undeniable truth. And now we wonder why we have problems making the sceptics believe anything else than what they were taught? During several years school will fill the children's mind with the vision of reality the government want the childrens to have.

Now one could argue that mathematics by example are important, and useful. I have to disagree. For a normal person, mathematics means knowing which bananas cost the less depending on the price/weight. That's a usefulness created by the circus, for the circus, it's completely irrelevant in another society, or context, it is not universal. For a scientist, mathematics mean having a structured method of calculating something. However, those wonderful laws only work within the extremely limited reality vision of science, and automatically if something cannot be explained by that slim vision of reality it is deemed that it was created by another element of that slim reality, but it is not a new element. Hmm, difficult to explain. By example scientists say that near-death experiences are illusions of the dying brain, and all sorts of other "logical" explanations, and they totally refuse to accept that the afterlife might be part of reality. Everytime a scientist refuses a new concept as being part of reality, they refuse to expand their perception of said reality. And thus no matter how much they try to find cures to diseases, or new technology, they will never go very far because their knowledge of reality is incomplete, flawled, and they refuse to fix it.

Now that being said, school certainly does not teach people to think for themselves, and it certainly does not make society evolve. School teaches you to be a slave of society, and to think the way the government wants you to think. Yet, this is what all parents want for their children; a "good" education. Don’t get me wrong, I think school should exist, even just for the sake of learning people how to write, but it should not exist in it’s current form.

After their education, the young people either become a well behaved slave, a company worker, then consume whatever is left of their money on whatever goods the circus economy sells. Or, much less younger people become the company presidents who exploits the workers, which the government also needs.



[edit on 14-8-2007 by Atlantix]

Truth is, no matter how much you'd like it to be otherwise, no matter what job, or occupation you have in this society, if you are not the exploiter you are the exploited. And no matter how much you'd like to think so, you do not have the power to decide what you do in your life in this society. Perhaps you are an architect, and love what you do, but in the bottom line, what you do as a job is not helping humanity evolve, and it is not creating anything important, you're job exists because people can make money off your back, use the product of your work at their own gain. Perhaps you think "But I do cool revolutionary buildings!", then I'd answer; “Since when are mundane things like that more important that the evolution of humanity, or the knowledge that your job ultimately has the sole goal of leeching money off you and others?”. If I clear up the unclear concept of money, let’s just say money is work. When someone makes money off you, they are actually taking away the consequence of your work, taking away what is rightfully yours. Society should not be about money, it should be about evolving. And wake up friends, the society in which we live is a well planned circus; the Medias are only a circus in a circus.


Overall, I’d say my writing style was sloppy on this post, but I got the point across. Can’t blame me, I’m french, english is not my speciality.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
Someone has come out with a novel recently about the correlations between the US and Rome. I heard an interview on it and it is eerily similar. Same thing, that we are headed for trouble. Rome basically fell from power hungry in-fighting among leaders. Sound familiar?

I *think* this might be the book you are talking about:

Are We Rome?: The Fall of an Empire and the Fate of America by Cullen Murphy

www.amazon.com...

Mr Murphy was featured on the Book TV segment of one of the C-SPAN channels after the release of his book. I haven't read it yet, it sounds like he addresses a lot of the issues raised in this thread though.

One of the only things that was a clear cut difference between the U.S and the Roman Empire was due process. I'm pretty sure Gore Vidal had said that recently on an interview. We've effectively lost that power after all of these acts which deal directly against our own personal and liberal rights. With that lost, we're not only "comparable" to the time of the end of the Roman empire, but, we ARE them.

Then you can draw parallels between the beginning of the Reich and the beginning of the Bush administration all the way down the line to now, but, I won't get into that.

So, while we can compare the U.S to a plethora of things, it all depends on key decisions which will be made in the next year or so. We can go down 3 possible major paths, that's what I believe.

What's so sad about seeing an Empire fall?

Empires ought to die, as the obsolete, brutal institutions they are.

Once rid of our Empire, we have a chance of returning to the peaceful Republic our nation's founders envisaged.

As an American, I look forward to the destruction of our Empire - the sooner, the better.

Did Rome have nukes?

Oh dear - this time it's really gonna end in tears. What were Romes death throws like? If they had WMD's would someone of panicked and hit the big red button?

I wonder what options that leaves the populous though.. in event of a collapse.

The economy is already feeling it. Seen wall street lately? We are accelerating inflation and simultaniously accepting foreign market money just to stay afloat. As it stands, we have only bought ourselves a little time.
The crux of the problem has not gone away. That is, our economic system based upon never-ending debt.
Do you wanna know how many credit card offers I get in the mail on a daily basis?
What about the thriving student loan industry, which specifically targets lower-income young people.

Young people are drowning in debt before they even hit 20! They must take out loans to go to school so that they can have the tiniest chance of "making it" in this world. Even then most of those who graduate end up in debt.

Those who do manage to make a successful living are constantly in fear of frivolous lawsuits, ever increasing taxes, and medical problems that can easily erase all efforts to survive debt free. Please explain how the crap our medical industry has grown to virtually rape anyone who can barely afford a doctor? Does it really cost a car to get appropriate medical care in an emergency? Tell me that you really belive our government can wisely handle the money to pay for health care.

Heck, our esteemed ever-socialistic government owers over 53 TRILLION dollars. That is well over 100,000 dollars per person. Yet out of control spending and pork is at an all time high.

Yup, we are going to fall. Only a few young people can see it coming and they are leaving the US in record numbers.

I am at college age and tragically, cannot go. I cannot afford it, and I refuse to make myself a slave to debt for it. Also, there is no reason to go if my government takes as much as they please, leaving me with worthless promises. screw that.

Our economy will collapse, understand this now.
The required change will not come from our government, or from the teevee addicted ignorant masses. Wake up and either
1 leave
2 fight when the time comes
3 sit on your but and starve when it comes

Donoso, could you post your 3 paths? I would appreciate your input.

the whole financial system of the world is facing a crisis now
in the form of a vaporizing 30 trillion credit derivatives market and central banks the world around are panicking

yes the u.s economy is headed down especially from the fall out of the housing collapse, but watch for all the political, economical, monetary and military reform when the dust settles in what appears to be the BEGINING of the collapse of the international monetary system. it may be GAME OVER

[edit on 14-8-2007 by cpdaman]

Donoso, could you post your 3 paths? I would appreciate your input.

Me too, please post them.
I'd like to see if they differ from mine:
1. The USA continues on its current way, which seems to lead to WW3.
2. The current system is overthrown/changed/reformed (by ballots or bullets, whatever it takes) and the USA again becomes the beacon of freedom and democracy it used to be.
3. The changes are too little too late and the USA sinks down to global insignificance and goes out not with a bang but a whimper.

Actually we are deep in the last third of Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire."

Sorry for the poetics but here are the parallels:

Almost 45 years ago, Caesar died in Dallas, the long knives replaced by a hail of bullets, with the devolution of honor being such that the modern conspirators hid behind contract killers bought from the mafia rather than looking their prince in the eye as they betrayed him and murdered their republic.

Wars and foreign intrigues followed, as the conspirators, now the rulers of empire, fed at the trough of money and power. In Rome, uneasy parents, witness to the unspeakable, soon enough gave way to sons and daughters who reveled in wealth and decadence.

The rich were never richer, the poor never more despised. The outward forms and structures were maintained, from familiarity and convenience, but all Romans knew that democracy had been supplanted by dictatorship, that Rome had sacrificed its soul to grasp at the delirious prize of world domination.

The pathetic spectacle of the current Congress's inability to stand up to this petty Emperor should be played out in togas. The craven politics, posturing and rank hypocrisy of Congress is a profoundly saddening and shameless display that reveals an institution that is impotent, dysfunctional and frankly irrelevant. The stink of decadence hangs over the farce: Congress is defunct as a viable, let alone co-equal, branch of government. Read your history, so was it then.

The war-mongers took over, driven by desperation and greed, and the Roman Empire collapsed from militarism, hubris and corruption. It over-extended itself in believing it could control and dominate the world, and forgot about its real purpose for being, which was to rule justly over its own citizenry.

Off we go; like good Americans, ignorant of history--and most everything else, for that matter.

Originally posted by jonknight

Barbarians were simply the exploited and conquered peoples that were subject to the empire but had no voice in it. They weren't without civilization, without culture. They were simply the People who had become so exploited by what was obviously a corrupt political system....

Well said jonknight, I'm sure many Native Americans, African Americans, and other poor disenfranchised Americans would identify.

Military expansionism and intervention, corrupt politicians, severe taxation, repeated currency debasement, free grain programs (public welfare), declining morals, and a lax Roman citizenry. Does sounds kinda familiar.

The comptroller general has been touring the country for over a year issuing similar warnings...I have yet to see his message discussed on the Lame St. News. It appears that our only option for dealing with the massively under funded entitlement programs he is so vocal about, will be inflation via the printing press. The clock is ticking on pensions, medicare, medicaid, and social security. Next year begins the mass exodus of 78 million, retirement age boomers (me) from the work force. We are talking ten's of trillions in unfunded entitlements. The gap between the cost of promised benefits and the revenues to pay for them is estimated at $50 trillion for SS & Medicare alone. I hope Mr. Walkers voice is heard soon.

Poetics Forgiven! EXCELLENT post. Did you write that or find it somewhere?

Originally posted by xmotex
What's so sad about seeing an Empire fall?

Empires ought to die, as the obsolete, brutal institutions they are.

Once rid of our Empire, we have a chance of returning to the peaceful Republic our nation's founders envisaged.

As an American, I look forward to the destruction of our Empire - the sooner, the better.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally posted by Atlantix
It depends what you consider to be the circus. I personally consider the circus to be specific medias; the television, the newspapers, and the magazines. I didn't include the radio, because there's a lot of people bashing the government on the radio, so I assume the government does not control, or does not care, about what is said on the radio, probably because it's impact is tiny right now compared to the other medias.
[edit on 14-8-2007 by Atlantix]

Radios and internet are the last beacons of free speach, the radio more, becasue it is free, and all you have to do to get your voice heard it call a number and talk... and sometimes millions of people will hear you... on the intrenet anyone can post/say anything, but some one has to go look at it.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
If the U.S. is Rome, then who are the barbarians?

I love this response and was, in fact, waitng to see if someone had the cojones to ask people to look around and identify the "barbarians" streaming across our borders and in other areas of the world.

Note: From time to time the Romans did allow peaceful migrations into their territories by barbarian tribes from the outside. This is the closest analogy, I think, to what is happening now with the hispanic "invasion". A big difference between then and now, of course, is that then there were a lot less people in the world, so more open land for the new arrivals to settle on than we have here in the U.S. today.

[edit on 8/14/2007 by centurion1211]

We are very similar in certain aspects to Rome as Passenger noted. But there are a few very basic differences in our societies that have to be noted.

1-America is not the center of the known world as was Rome. By geographical location we are better able to protect ourlselves than any other nation (given we don't send too many troops abroad).
2-We still have one of the best trained armies with the most advanced military machine yet known.
3-Most of America supports our troops (even if they don't support the war) and we do not see the level of desertion Rome did in its end of days.
4-We the People have the option of pulling our heads out of our collective "rear" and make a change by voice (this means every person of legitimate citizenship).
5-The Barbarians (as they were called in Roman days) are not united to make a notable march on America. The nations we would describe as barbarians today have as much inter-squabbling as we have in our own political elite.
6-All persons in America are "basically" free. Freedom was given to Roman citizens only. I know we are subdued to a degree by Govt but we do have the ability to change this.
7-We still have the net and free radio!

By all comparisons American people have more opportunity to change and direct our own lives more than any other nation. Unfortunately we don't engage our minds and hearts and worry day to day about trivial things. It would appear to me we have made a mockery of freedom. Freedom is no longer an intirinsic need or desire, rather now it is an item that must be bartered with. And barter is what our government, big business, personal security, food, healthcare, etc etc... You name the commodity, freedom is no longer free. We now pay dearly for the most basic of needs.

But we have the choice and the ability to step up to the plate and Swing Away. We decide our future every day. We shape it every day. You can choose to be happy to be free or you can choose to be miserable and fret about nothing at all. You can choose to change the world or you can choose to sit on the fence and watch it go round. You can choose to live in Rome or you can choose to free your America.

I have chosen to free America as well as the rest of the world. I have chosen love not hate. I have chosen to voice my opinions even if I am not the most eloquent of speakers. If you enlist just one person each day to read here on ATS or any other thought provoking forum you have begun a change. What's the worst that could happen?

What I currently see on the horizon is not the most engaging of futures. But I encourage everyone to open their hearts and minds and listen. We as a world on on the verge of an incredible experience. What we decide to do each day to be one as a race is what will free us or enslave us.

Give up not your heart to those who would take it, Rather child give up your heart to those who refuse it.

[edit on 8/14/07 by rezial666]

Originally posted by jonknight
"The Barbarians".
Let's put it in caps. Cause they were so, so , uhh, barbaric.?
Barbarians were simply the exploited and conquered peoples that were subject to the empire but had no voice in it. They weren't without civilization, without culture. They were simply the People who had become so exploited by what was obviously a corrupt political system, denied the pleasures of "citizenship" but expected nonetheless to support it. They saw their chance to be free of the yoke of the oppressors and they took it.
[edit on 14-8-2007 by jonknight]

Not sure which version of history you studied, perhaps something written by Harry Turtledove?

First, "barbarians" were non-civilized people that lived outside the borders of the empire. Sure they had "culture", but civilization? No. Would you say that Bedouin tribesmen in the desert have civilization, the same as the people living in Cairo? No, again. However, the analogy is valid.

Second, free people inside the empire were considered to be Roman citizens, and they also considered themselves to be Roman citizens. They preferred the relative peace and stabilty afforded to them by living in the empire as opposed to what existed outside.

Remember, by "barbarians", we're talking about are groups like the Huns that rampaged across Europe destroying everything in their path. Not peaceful people leading a wonderfully pastoral life.

[edit on 8/14/2007 by centurion1211]

I have made reference to this a couple of times. People always seem to disagree with me. I wonder what has led to their sudden change of heart?