Your Beef with Catholicism

Originally posted by WalkInSilence

I believe you are contradicting your self dear, all our knowledge is extracted from those who have walked before us, with out them we would still be ignorant berry gatherers. You have chosen your name here Vipassana, presumably to represent your personality.
An ancient definition of enlightenment? Do we not all pass down a fragment of awareness of the Divine?

[edit on 11-8-2007 by WalkInSilence]

Well said, and certainly I do not mean to come across as angered. At the same time though I do truly feel the catholic church and christianity have led millions astray. Sure there are many great people out there who practice these religions, I have many friends who are Christian. But just because they are nice people does not mean they are correct in their faith.

If we are in agreement that those who come before us are imperfect, than who are they to hold their doctrine over us as truth? You contradict yourself on that point...

As for my name, meditative insight comes from within, not books of the past.

A synonym for "Vipassanā" is paccakkha (Pāli; Sanskrit: pratyakṣa), "before the eyes," which refers to direct experiential perception. Thus, the type of seeing denoted by "vipassanā" is that of direct perception, as opposed to knowledge derived from reasoning or argument.

Heres a quote from the first paragraph of the link you provided:

While it is a type of Buddhist meditation as taught by the Buddha, it is essentially non-sectarian in character and has universal application. One need not convert to Buddhism to practice vipassanā meditation.

I ask you if Catholicism grants the same freedoms?

I am not discounting all foreknowledge, I am simply choosing not to follow it completely without investigation. My investigation has led me to believe that the bible is full of false representation of God and spirituality...

Please stay on the catholicism topic though. This isn't about me, but rather my beef with Catholicism.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Vipassana]

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Vipassana]

Basically the Pope is a surrugate Jesus then... wow, thats pretty arrogant. I mean, Jesus would have said "ahhhh... whatever.. let them worship me however they choose", and then he wouldn't have paid them any more attention, other than as another equal follower.

Clearskies,

I'm checking out the text you recommended at the site. I went to the authors original site to get the unedited version. It's a lot of text to go through, so give me a bit of time to respond.

Eric

Originally posted by Clearskies

What it means is that through Peter(supposedly), the apostolic successors are granted full authority as Jesus-on-earth.
As well as infallabilty, the pope acts for God according to the church.

Actually, the Church states that the Pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals in specific circumstances and it is believed that he is guided by the Holy Spirit and the teaching MUST be based on Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture (I realize that this doesn't mean much to those of the Sola Scripture bent). Since the declaration of Papal infallibility by Vatican 1, a Pope has spoken Ex Cathedra exactly once.

Catholics do not consider the Pope as a surrogate for Jesus. Catholics do not pray to the Pope. They do not expect the Pope to perform miracles. They do not expect the Pope to grant them salvation.

Eric

Led Astray
Perhaps.
Time heals, the heart that seeks shall find.

Let me tell you some thing. We love our church, with a passion so profound. We want this "institution" to become whole.
We have full and complete consciousness of the past. Do you think a day passes where we are not reminded of the horrid acts committed by "our" church?
No. Every one will remind us.
Humility is born of our short comings.

But having patience for centuries, waiting, hoping, praying.
Gods "house" is not made of gold but of hearts that burn for peace, what ever they may call them selves.
Jesus said: "It is not those whom cry Lord, Lord whom shall be saved; but those whom do the will of my Father"

We know this and are humbled.

How can I express the faith of millions? How?
The Roman Catholic Church is not a dictatorship but resembles a republic.

Within the church if you encounter the individual, you will find every aspect of human expression, concealed and accepted as a valid opinion.

Every single fraction of christianity will proclaim it self as the truth. Should you take time to look into the Ecumenical efforts of the differing fragments you will see that there is a will to unite. For peace.

I would have been burned at the stake in "the old days" today I am an honered member.
Times change.
What ever we say or do in the name of God, does not alter the infinate.
It is our doing.

WIS

Originally posted by EricD

Catholics do not consider the Pope as a surrogate for Jesus. Catholics do not pray to the Pope. They do not expect the Pope to perform miracles. They do not expect the Pope to grant them salvation.
Eric

You don't pray to someone who is alive. When someone meets with the pope, they must kneel,kiss his ring and call him lord(can't find that right now, I'm tired and it's too late)
What do you think people pay money for when the pope opens those doors in Rome for them to walk through and recieve forgiveness?????
You cannot be saved (according to the church) except by receiving All seven sacraments and joining thier church.

And that is EXACTLY why I think the Pope is a surrogate Jesus, because he affords all the sacraments that Jesus performed for the disciples. Except, I've never seen the Pope disrobe to show his humility in front of the masses he performs this for.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Quazga]

Originally posted by Clearskies

You don't pray to someone who is alive. When someone meets with the pope, they must kneel,kiss his ring and call him lord(can't find that right now, I'm tired and it's too late)
What do you think people pay money for when the pope opens those doors in Rome for them to walk through and recieve forgiveness?????
You cannot be saved (according to the church) except by receiving All seven sacraments and joining thier church.

I'm still working on that other website! I'll comment when I'm done reading the text.

In regards to your post above:

I have never heard of anyone having to call the Pope 'Lord'. I have never heard of anyone doing it, let alone having to do it. I look forward to seeing where you got this from.

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you are talking about paying money when you walk through the door. Can you elaborate? Are you discussing the purchase of plenary indulgences?

The point about the seven sacraments being needed for salvation is completely wrong. One of the sacraments is marriage, so that would leave out bachelors, spinsters, priests and nuns. Another is accepting Holy Orders, which would leave out anyone who is not part of an ecclesiastical order.

Eric

I have a beef. It is misleading, false, arrogant, and dimeaning to the spirit that we call humanity.

The Catholic Church is what has given Christianity a bad name and reputation because they claim authority over all Christians and all Churchs.
Look to the early days of Christianity, before Rome accepted it as their official religion. They martyred thousands of Christians in the most heinous ways. All for not worshipping the Caesar as living God, as the highest of all.

But they realized that you cannot stop Christianity, especially by force. Because devout Christians will gladly and peacefully march to their death, so long as it is a death for the faith, they become martyrs. You can read accounts from Christians who knew they were going to be executed. Typically there is a sense of joy and excitement that they will soon get to be with God and Jesus.

So the Romans couldn't just kill them quiet. They'd be doing the Christians a service by martyring them all, and for each martyr there are new believers. The difference between this and Islamic martyrdom is simple; The Christian peacefully goes to his death, and believes in peace. He wishes not to kill anyone with his own death. The Islamic martyr has ever intent to murder as many 'enemies' as possible with his martyrdom, dying in a fashion that also kills others. They do not believe in peace and do not practice it.

In a modern parallel, we can't stop Islamic Extremism by killing them quiet, because they will gladly march to their death as well. The difference being they will try to kill as many as they can on their way to death, the Christian walks peacefully to his death.

Back to Catholicism. They took all the Roman province Holidays, Pagan holidays that the citizens celebrated in places like Gaul, Asia Minor, North Africa, etc. They simply stuck the Christian holidays over top, on the same dates. Catholicism is therefore a combination of Christianity and Paganism, and by definition that is evil and wrong according to Catholics themselves. So they are walking contradictions. Also, their rituals are man-made. They may be inspired from events in the Gospel, but Jesus did not decree: You must replicate my last supper every time you get together at Church. He did not decree: You must worship me and the image of my dead flesh, or my dying flesh, thrown up on the cross. He did not decree: You must stick an idol of my dead flesh on a cross at the front of every congregation. In essence, he did NOT teach to Hijack God's Church.

These Catholics are idolizing the fleshy Jesus, his body / image, his death. Then they symbolically drink the blood (wine) and eat the flesh (bread). While we know the idea or concept behind this act, it is still strange, and it is still MAN-MADE. All of their rituals.. man made. They butchered the Bible! The Council of Nicea, full of Roman Imperial Theologians, decided which books should stay and which should go.

And guess what? Any books seen to be empowering women in the Church were removed. They did not want women to have their rightful position in God's Church. Women were originally equal to men in all respects when it came to Church, teaching the Gospel, and leading the congregation. Catholicism removed that for the benefit of greedy men to consolidate power, to consolidate control.

They removed books of a 'Gnostic nature', books which question why things are and attempt to explain. Almost like .. ancient tales of a time long forgotten, and they were simply thrown out. The works of Saints, thrown to the dogs. Centuries of wisdom discarded. The whole thing was cut-down, some things were taken from it, some man-made crap was added to it, words and phrases have been changed in it, and practices present in Catholicism may not even be found in the Bible! They butchered it..

And in my opinion, they are drunk from the blood of the martyrs. They are the Whore of Babylon. Look at the Crusades.. thousands of dead martyrs, both Christian, Muslim, and Jew. Then, look at the Inquisition and the Reconquista -- thousands and thousands more were killed in the most heinous ways for petty things that are not even true crimes, in life or in the bible. Accusations which often time were false sent these people to horrible tortured deaths. Being slowly burnt alive, being ripped limb from limb, having your internal organs like your stomach removed from your body whie you are strapped down. Simply heinous.. evil incarnate. there is no excuse, no explanation for this. It was the Roman Empire's persecution part two. Which shows the Catholic Church is the successor entity to the Roman Empire. Nothing good can come of it ..

[edit on 8/12/2007 by runetang]

My only "beef" with Catholicism is the pedophilia.

Do a quick google and you´ll find that both Islam and Judaism has it´s fare share of pedophilia.

FK

Originally posted by Frontkjemper

My only "beef" with Catholicism is the pedophilia.

Do a quick google and you´ll find that both Islam and Judaism has it´s fare share of pedophilia.

FK

Keep googling and you'll find an inordinate number of pedophiles are also trekkies, go figure.

Now back on topic without the perversion angle.

When my father was around ten years old, his Catholic school had book burnings, comic book specifically, the church taught that comic books caused homosexuality. There is a big book that covers the history of comics and the comics code authority, and this topic is covered in that book. Title of the book? Got me I read it back in 1984 or so.

I've never met a catholic that practiced what was preached.
I don't know the adjectives to describe these people.
Lets see, drunk, drug addicts, sex fiends, hypocrites, gossips, jealous, suspicious, unfaithful. Thats a few descriptions.

There are millions starving, children dying of diseases and the church hordes cash, and spends it on building huge fortresses.

They are against contraception, which leads to more AIDS in their parishes and overpopulation especially among their poorest members.

Damn them all to hell.

[edit on 12-8-2007 by Legalizer]

Legalizer
I would advise you to be very careful of using such condescending and harmful speech on this board.
There are manners in which one can express an opinion with out becoming obviously hostile.

It will be noticed.

WIS

This is a thread where people explain why they're hostile to catholicism.

How on earth would this not become 'obviously hostile'?

Why should it? at least it diversifies things...

I have no beef with Catholicism...
Infact I think if 'Christians' looked at the writings of Henri Nouwen and Thomas Merton they would quite enjoy some words from 'catholics' themselves.

Of course I know that many already read Henri Nouwen, etc...just goes to show that division doesnt help when we 'label' got to go in and see the good that is there, and its there indeed as I have already implied by the mention of Nouwn and Merton.

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by EricD

That discussion then started to move into an exploration of whether or not the Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon as mentioned in Revelation.

So, what are your thoughts on Catholicism?

Eric

The thread authors intent is obviously to debate in a civil manner the theories and opinions of a closed topic.
"Is the Catholic church the whore of Babylon?" A simple comprehensible question, to which the answer may be less obvious.

An intelligent question that demands intelligent, intelligible answers.

I state again not to bash a single belief system.

WIS

Originally posted by EricD



I'm not sure what you are referring to when you are talking about paying money when you walk through the door. Can you elaborate? Are you discussing the purchase of plenary indulgences?



Eric

Eric,
here's something,



As far as sacraments go, If you don't receive all seven, a priest has to be payed alms for the dead to be prayed for him to pray that person out of purgatory......
What do Roman catholics believe?
There are many true christians in the catholic church who receive salvation from Jesus, not the pope.

Quotes from Legalizer in parentheticals.

(I've never met a catholic that practiced what was preached.)

Then I would suggest that you don't know enough Catholics.

(I don't know the adjectives to describe these people.
Lets see, drunk, drug addicts, sex fiends, hypocrites, gossips, jealous, suspicious, unfaithful. Thats a few descriptions.)

Painting with a REALLY wide brush there, aint ya?

(There are millions starving, children dying of diseases and the church hordes cash, and spends it on building huge fortresses.)

You might want to look into Catholic charities and the charitable works done by both lay people and members of the clergy.


(Damn them all to hell.)

Well, that says quite a bit about you, little about Catholics or Catholicism.

Eric

Originally posted by GeneralT.
Eric,
here's something,



As far as sacraments go, If you don't receive all seven, a priest has to be payed alms for the dead to be prayed for him to pray that person out of purgatory......
What do Roman catholics believe?
There are many true christians in the catholic church who receive salvation from Jesus, not the pope.

Thanks for posting! Your points in order:

1) I'm sorry, I can't see that image. Problem with my graphics somehow? Are other people seeing it? If you provide the url from the original I'll check it out.

2) I read the section on the sacraments that your site provided twice and I could not find any mention of all 7 needing to be fulfilled for salvation. Am I missing something?

3) No one receives salvation from the Pope. Anyone who is saved is saved via the Grace of God.

Eric

Hi,

This is in response to Runetang. I didn’t want to quote him/her in his/her entirety as it was a fairly long post. You can see his/her post roughly 4 above this one.

1) I’m relatively sure that Catholicism is not the sole reason why anti-Christians have a problem with Christianity. Fake faith healers, Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart and others have done much to harm the reputation of the religion as a whole

2) You seem to be under the impression that the acceptance and endorsement of Christianity (or Catholicism if you don’t think Catholics are Christians) was due in entirely to Machiavellian political maneuvering and not due to an increasing conversion to Christianity by citizens and people in power, culminating in Constantine.

I don’t think I’m going to change your mind, so we will have to agree to disagree.


3) I’m going to do more research on the holidays and get back to you.

4) Are you saying that there is no place in worship for things that are not directly ordered in the Bible? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Catholics are not idolizing Jesus in any state. Jesus can’t be idolized. He is God.

I can understand your concern and confusion about transubstantiation. It’s one of the most difficult concepts in Christianity. If you are interested in reading an explanation of why Catholics believe in this concept please check this site:
www.catholic.net...

5) Are you referencing the inclusion of the Apocrypha when talking about ‘butchering’ the Bible? Because with the exclusion of the Apocrypha the Catholic Bible is very, very similar to that used by most other Christians.

6) The same books that you seem to be referring to that seem to have been eliminated from cannon due to their support of women (I’m assuming the Gnostic gospels?) have also been excluded from use and belief to be cannon by most of Christianity, so although it is a legitimate point of contention, it is not a ‘Catholic’ issue alone.

7) Your not claiming that unjust killing of Christians is limited to Catholics are you?


Thanks for posting!

Eric