Mexico Accused Of Framing Border Agent

yes, but he has to prove his life was in danger. That is what his trial is for. Again it sucks he cant have a fair one.


He will have a hard time explaining how a rock could have killed, not saying its impossible. he may have had a history of concussions or a medical condition, dont know. I can argue without a shadow of doubt that worse threats have been quelled here and abroad without killing the perpetrator.

[edit on 12-8-2007 by newyorkee]

Originally posted by newyorkee
again I ask, how many border patrol agents are KILLED by these rocks. I would argue that if the number is zero then it can not be justification for killing someone with a rock as "their wepon of choice"

But when do we start calling it a problem? Do we start calling it a problem after a border agent loses his life to one of these stray rocks coming out of no where? If thats the case, then, IMO its to late to refer to it as a 'problem'.

Not saying I condone this behavior, but also I cant immagine how killing a person with a lump of stone is correct either.

Perhaps if you were under similar circumstances you would do the same? You life or his?

A correction on the post stating that Enrique Camarena was in Mexico illegally trying to entrap Mexican citizens. This is a false statement. Enrique was in Mexico on an officially sanctioned DEA project. Even those higher up in the Mexican Government were supporters of his mission. It was the lower members of Government who aided the drug lords. The US and Mexico have long cooperated on many DEA projects. Sadly, corruption is rampant when drug money is involved.

You know maybe I would have done something similar, maybe worse. I could then expect the full extent of the law to apply to me for my actions.
I couldnt argue that I wasnt waiting for them to start killing us could I. I'd be responsible for my actions and the actual threat possed to me, not that possed to fellow law enforcement.

Originally posted by West Coast

Im glad you mentioned this. Rocks are used against border patrol agents with the intent to hurt and or kill the agents.

I agree but trying to get that point across to others seems usless at times. I do not know if some cannot read or do not want to read the information provided that shows the damge rocks can do.

One video on youtube showed the face of one agent all bashed in but ATS does not look kindly upon gore so I did not link to the video but you can find it on you tube by using border patrol in the search and look for a posting date in may or june and you will get the hannity video that shows it. This video shows several throwing rocks at agents while they are busy aprehending others and others throw molotov coktails and the rocks are huge just look at the size of the one around 2:27. Yet some people wonder why agents pull out their guns :shk:

[edit on 8/12/2007 by shots]

www.cnn.com...
This is the most information on the agents, Lou Dobbs has made this his personal mission to free these Boarder Patrol agents.

About 110 US Border Patrol agents have been killed in the line of duty since 1924. I will get the exact causes off ODMP later on tonight.

Do you think that the shooting of this man made more or less rocks find their way into the hands of these "rock throwers"?

Originally posted by newyorkee
Do you think that the shooting of this man made more or less rocks find their way into the hands of these "rock throwers"?

No one really knows but it may make some think twice before picking one up if they find themselves in the same situation.

Look at it like carrying conceled fireamrs only in this case they are not conceled but have been warned where it is proven the Crime Rates are statistically lower



[edit on 8/12/2007 by shots]

Anyone who uses the threat of violence against an officer of the law, can expect the officer to defend himself. That the officer used deadly force is not, in and of itself, wrong. If he felt that there was a possibility of personal injury, not matter what the extent, he has the right to fire his weapon. He has a duty to prevent anyone from obtaining his weapon and from violating the law. If he had not acted so, and was incapacitated from being struck in the head by the rock, the illegal alien could have taken the gun and used it in a further crime. That the attacker was all ready committing the illegal act of crossing into a sovereign nation without proper permission, only furthers the case of the officer to respond to a violent act with force. That there have been a number of incidences of border agents being injured by rocks in the past adds a case history which supports the officers belief that the threat was potentially serious.

Yes, it is sad that someone died. But it is stupid to threaten violence against an armed officer of the law while you are committing an illegal entry. Evolution does not favor stupidity.

This case merits attention, not simply due to the violent outcome, but due to the unbalanced prosecution. ALL partied present should be called to testify and not just some of them. THIS is the crux of the issue. No one can receive a fair trial when some, possibly exculpatory, witnesses are kept from being able to testify. I was not there, and neither was anyone from ATS. Only those present truly know what happened on that day. No one here on ATS can decide whether or not the officer was in danger. For this to be a fair trial, everyone MUST tell their side of the story without any government meddling. Sadly the Mexican Government is demonstrating a cultural bias and is preventing this from being a fair trial.

That is the issue. Not Mexican genealogy. Not Illegal immigration. Not Police violence. The issue here is someone getting a fair and open trial based on ALL the evidence, and not just some of the evidence.

That is like saying that nuclear perliferation actually saved our planet from thermal nuclear destruction. Mind you we are in a worse situation than ever , being that we couldnt possibly account for all of these wepons, and they will more than likely be used one day. you cant use force as a deterent always. THAT is flawed logic.

Force was not used as a deterent in this case. It was used only in responce to the threat of violence.

I agree, this man should get a fair trial. that is the only thing I think we agree upon. Fair enough for me.

Originally posted by newyorkee
yes, but he has to prove his life was in danger. That is what his trial is for. Again it sucks he cant have a fair one.

He will have a hard time explaining how a rock could have killed, not saying its impossible.

Deadly Force

Deadly force is a level of force which is inherently likely to cause death or great bodily injury.

That definition given above is accepted world wide. Yes, it is!

I would assume that a grown man coming at me with a rock would cause death or serious harm to my body. Not sure about you, but I'm taking him out.

Like intrepid said, LEOs and military alike are trained to incapacitate the target, or threat. If someone is close enough to throw or hit you with a rock then you can bet your life (no kidding) that a round to the leg will not stop him....he has momentum, adrenaline, emotions and he has already met and established the "big three", means, intent and oppurtunity.

Means - Rock
Intent - He's trying to hit you with a rock.
Oppurtunity - Speaks for itself.

Sporty

I hope the big three hold up in court then. Best wishes for the guy if he is indeed not guilty. If he is proven guilty then I wish him and his family all the strength they will need to get through this. In the end I will pray for the families of both parties involved. It sucks for us all.

I don't get what's so difficult. The guy threatened the agent and could have caused him harm. The guy would not obey the agent.

I don't even support the death sentence, but I can't comprehend how you believe that this man should not have defended himself, putting his life in danger and disregarding his duty to enforce the border.

Originally posted by Johnmike
I don't get what's so difficult. The guy threatened the agent and could have caused him harm. The guy would not obey the agent.

I don't even support the death sentence, but I can't comprehend how you believe that this man should not have defended himself, putting his life in danger and disregarding his duty to enforce the border.

Indeed. Also in sending a message to any hostile illegals trying to cross the border, be unruly and threaten a border agent, and be ready for the consequences of such actions. Of course this could mean more illegals coming across the border armed. Then we could have a blood bath on our hands at our southern border between border patrol and illegals entering, which, in turn, will not go unnoticed by the american people. You could then say that calls for border security would grow exponentially till eventually something the american people would be in favor for, would be done.

[edit on 12-8-2007 by West Coast]

Originally posted by newyorkee
I hope the big three hold up in court then. Best wishes for the guy if he is indeed not guilty. If he is proven guilty then I wish him and his family all the strength they will need to get through this. In the end I will pray for the families of both parties involved. It sucks for us all.

Well we will never know because between Johnny Sutton, the Mexican government and all the people who think the illegals are peaceful saints this agent is pretty much assured a long visit with the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

This is a conspiracy site!!!!!!!!!! who cares, there are more dangerouse threats here. Have you been under a rock for all this time, we are currently the largest occupying force in the world. Talk about sovereign nations rights, how about Iraq's right not to have a destablizing ARMY in their land. Are you saying that its ok to respect borders here and not everywhere else. We have had a war for every generation in this country, an invasion of sovereign nations since our dawn. If it wasnt the native american's lands, it was some other "deserving" country. What the hell is wrong with you people? You must realize that we have one of the largest concentrations of wealth in the world. Did you expect everyone to stay home while heartless coorporations go abroad and rape the world for all its worth? It all comes back. The problem is that while we fight eachother and everyone in a similar situation the powers that be laugh and enjoy no challenge to their abuse. You think they look at eachother and see division.

Originally posted by newyorkee
This is a conspiracy site!!!!!!!!!! who cares, there are more dangerouse threats here. Have you been under a rock for all this time, we are currently the largest occupying force in the world. Talk about sovereign nations rights, how about Iraq's right not to have a destablizing ARMY in their land. Are you saying that its ok to respect borders here and not everywhere else. We have had a war for every generation in this country, an invasion of sovereign nations since our dawn.

And yet we cannot, and will not protect our own borders?

If it wasnt the native american's lands, it was some other "deserving" country. What the hell is wrong with you people? You must realize that we have one of the largest concentrations of wealth in the world. Did you expect everyone to stay home while heartless coorporations go abroad and rape the world for all its worth? It all comes back. The problem is that while we fight eachother and everyone in a similar situation the powers that be laugh and enjoy no challenge to their abuse. You think they look at eachother and see division.

Quite right Mr. Yorkee. However, that isnt what has come under question. The question (and we've all gone off an a bit of a tangent here) is why is the mexican government deliberately withholding valuable information that pertains to this incident? You sir, come off as defending the mexican government who is far more corrupt then our own. Why is the Mexican gov. trying to 'set' this border patrol agent up? Its to teach other border patrols a lesson, thus trying to destablize our national security by threatening our border patrol agents. The mexican government has its own interest just as the US does (or any gov for that matter).