The Children of Abraham

This is something I started thinking about yesterday.

Isaac and Ismael were both sons of Abraham. Abraham was promised:

"5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be." Chapter 15 Genesis

" 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee."
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Chapter 17 Genesis

Most people forget about Ishmael and Esau when thinking about these promises to Abraham. Ishmael is the Son of the Abraham. Esau is his Grandson.

Today the descendents of Abraham number close to 0.5 Billion. They rule from the borders of Iran to the the Atlantic Coast of Morocco. The contributions that Arabs and Jews have made to human civilization are tremendous. The impact good or bad they have had on human history is probably unsurpassed by any group of people on Earth.

The thing idea that really struck me was when I realized all of these descendents are in fact Hebrew. No one today ever says the Arabs are Hebrew. Alot of people like to label Arabs as Anti Semites, yet Arabs are Semite descendents of Shem and Hebrew descendents of Abraham. Makes you look at that part of the world with a completely different view when you think about that.

Then I stumbled upon this in Isaiah, a prophecy:

"17 And the land of Judah shall become a terror unto Egypt, whensoever one maketh mention thereof to it; it shall be afraid, because of the purpose of the LORD of hosts, which He purposeth against it.
18 In that day there shall be five cities in the land of Egypt that speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called The city of destruction.
19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD." Chapter 19 Isaiah

Land of Judah being a terror? Israel since 1948 had been a great adversary of Egypt. In 1967 and 1973 Israel definitely terrorized the Egyptian military. It also says there are cities that speak the language of Canaan or Hebrew depending on the translation. Arabic is closely related to Hebrew. It also mentions the Egyptians worshipping the Lord of Hosts. Today in Egypt there are no active temples to any Kemetic deities. The only houses of worship are Islamic Mosques and a some Coptic Churches.

Then it goes on: "23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria; and the Egyptians shall worship with the Assyrians."

Assyria in modern times is Syria. Another mostly Muslim nation with a Christian minority, the Assyrian Church. Here we have a prophecy saying that Egypt and Assyria will one day worship the G-d of Israel, that cities in Egypt will speak a Hebrew Language, and be an enemy of a reborn Israel (Which is covered in a few chapters prior, " 12 And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the dispersed of Israel, and gather together the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth. " )

I dont know if that is a fulfilled prophecy or a coincidence or what. I have a completely different outlook on the region than I did a few days ago. What I really wonder is if there is a conspiracy or movement to actively suppress this knowledge?

Israeli's and Arabs are both indeed the children of Abraham and are both from the same racial stock.
The are no less different than Catholics and Protestants in Northen Ireland.

The fact that they have such a history of hate and intolerance towards each other is beyond me and may indeed be perpetuated for reasons other than religous or racial motivations.

[edit on 10-8-2007 by Freeborn]

wow good summary. while i personaly wouldn't exactly take it to heart it is quite a story. but i wonder what the now a day characters(egyptians, etc.) think of it.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Israeli's and Arabs are both indeed the children of Abraham and are both from the same racial stock.
The are no less different than Catholics and Protestants in Northen Ireland.

The fact that they have such a history of hate and intolerance towards each other is beyond me and may indeed be perpetuated for reasons other than religous or racial motivations.

[edit on 10-8-2007 by Freeborn]

Thats something I have been wondering about, that the hate and violence is being fueled by something else. Judaism and Islam are far closer in practice and belief than Judaism and Christianity, or Islam and Christianity. Racially or Genetically Arabs and Jews are almost identical. They are closer to each other than any other two groups on Earth yet there is intense hate and violence. Something else that would inspire completely irrational thought and behavior seems to be at work.

Perhaps we should ask;
Who benefits from the continued hate and violence?

When we know that we will then be closer to understanding the how's and the why's.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Perhaps we should ask;
Who benefits from the continued hate and violence?

When we know that we will then be closer to understanding the how's and the why's.

From a Socio-Political Perspective I know of four things that helped seed Arab hatred.

1. European Colonialism. From the French Invasion of Egypt during the Napoleonic Wars to the occupation of the Middle East by Britain and France after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in World War One.

2. Nazi Germany's support of Insurgents, Terrorists, and Rebels against European Occupiers and Jews before and during World War Two.

3. Soviet Influence on the Arab World following the birth of Israel in 1948.

4. The former Egyptian President Nasser who blamed Israel and the West for everything wrong with the Arab World.

From a Spiritual/Biblical Perspective:

Note: HaShem means The Name, it is a repectful replacement used by those of Jewish faith instead of using the name of G-d. Hasatan is of course The Accuser. For those confused by the terms.

1. In the Adatel Hasatan, who has contempt for humanity, ( see Job and Zechariah) brings accusations against Individuals and even Nations like a Prosecutor in a Court of Law. The Adatel is indeed a Court of Law, of Divine Law, with Hashem as Supreme Judge. What could be happening is a situation like in the Book Of Job except on a much more Epic scale with the fates of entire nations in the balance. Meaning Hashem has given Hasatan authority to create the present mess. The Free Will of the Humans involved would be the deciding factor in Hashem's Judgement.

2. Its the Will of Hashem, not from any accusations by Hasatan, but due to some Divine Plan. Biblically speaking Hashem has often used other peoples and nations as pawns in various Divine Plans, often as a tool of His wrath against Israel or other nations.

3. Even more Speculative would be some kind of rivalry or conflict by Sarim, Angelic Princes or Ethnarchs as mentioned in Daniel. Maybe even a combination of all the above.

I guess it all depends on what a person believes.



[edit on 10/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

In essence are you suggesting that certain historical and political events are mechanisations of greater / higher beings, (God, Satan), and are in fact manifestations of the ongoing conflict between the two.

Could this is turn be extended to suggest that we may indeed be heading towards some "End Time / Armageddon" scenario and that the flashpoint / battlegound? will indeed be the Middle East. (I certainly hope not)

If this is so, then no blame / responsibility maybe attached to any human and in turn negates the idea of "free will" and suggests we are merely "playthings" to be used in "others" orchestrations, not too dissimilar to the beliefs of The Ancient Greeks and their relations to the Greek Gods?

My head hurts, I think it's time I gave this some serious contemplation and I seek enlightenment in the best place possible, The Pub!

Why can't people just be people? Why can't death just be death?

Why must we be so arrogant as to suppose some sort of cosmic game of chess wherein we little insignificant pieces of pondscum are the game pieces?

I guess if it makes you feel better, then follow it, but gees, I wouldn't be so passionate about it.

Originally posted by Freeborn
In essence are you suggesting that certain historical and political events are mechanisations of greater / higher beings, (God, Satan), and are in fact manifestations of the ongoing conflict between the two.

Could this is turn be extended to suggest that we may indeed be heading towards some "End Time / Armageddon" scenario and that the flashpoint / battlegound? will indeed be the Middle East. (I certainly hope not)

If this is so, then no blame / responsibility maybe attached to any human and in turn negates the idea of "free will" and suggests we are merely "playthings" to be used in "others" orchestrations, not too dissimilar to the beliefs of The Ancient Greeks and their relations to the Greek Gods?

My head hurts

, I think it's time I gave this some serious contemplation and I seek enlightenment in the best place possible, The Pub!

Its not really conflict as its more a trial for humanity or whoever would be inovled at least from a biblical point of view. The Accuser tries to present a case that humans should be wiped out.

Whether or not thats happening I dont know. From a Biblical point of view it could be.

Originally posted by Quazga
Why can't people just be people? Why can't death just be death?

Why must we be so arrogant as to suppose some sort of cosmic game of chess wherein we little insignificant pieces of pondscum are the game pieces?

I guess if it makes you feel better, then follow it, but gees, I wouldn't be so passionate about it.

Why do people interpret it as game? Its a Trial. There's no battle between good and evil. Its humans acting like morons and something non human pointing that out saying we deserve to be exterminated for being morons.

Regardless of what a person believes: Humans can be very sick and have severe emotional and violent behavior. This behavior can lead to crimes and atrocities that are beyond my comprehension.

It is highly unlikely we are all alone by ourselves in this vast Cosmos. Something is probably watching us and judging us. In the end our behavior could decide if something ignores us, destroys us, or helps us.

We are still pondscum or worse. Even if we are alone in this massive Cosmos we would still be pondscum or worse. It doesnt take the existence of superior beings to show us that.

Yeah but all things being equal, there are no morons.


Calling humans morons somehow pre-supposes a cosmic measuring stick.

Originally posted by Quazga
Yeah but all things being equal, there are no morons.


Calling humans morons somehow pre-supposes a cosmic measuring stick.

I dont need a cosmic measuring stick to see the difference between Adolf Hitler and Mother Teresa. That is absurd to say all things being equal, there are no morons. Do you not see the what goes on around the world everyday? How about history? Humans are quite capable of being ignorant, selfish, and foolish.

Now that the thread has been thoroughly hijacked I'll reiterate my point in simple form.

1. Arabs are descendents of Abraham and Hence Hebrew

2. This means those of Hebrew descent control from the borders of Iran to the Coast of Morocco. They number at almost half of one billion.

3. Arabs and Jews have made tremendous contributions to human civilization and have probably had more impact than any other group of people on earth.

4. This knowledge seems to be actively suppressed or ignored.

[edit on 10/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

Mike, old buddy old friend, I'm no longer post banned.

Funny you mention Esau, his descendants are the Edomites. And there are many prophecies explaining how the Edomites will conspire to control the children of David & Israel, even though they will be a minority among them. King Herod was an Edomite, descendant of Esau.

In the end times, it's prophecized in Daniel or Ezekiel that the Edomites will be in control of the Jews at the time of Meshiach's arrival, or the second coming of Jesus. The Messiah is supposed to free them from their bondage, and 'break them out' of the Edomite's grasp.

If modern day descendants of Ishmael are the various Arab tribes, and those of Isaac are the 12 tribes of Israel, 10 of which have been scattered amongst former Assyria in its greatness (From Syria to Afghanistan), meaning Judah and Benjamin are the two remaining tribes in Israel; who are the modern descendants of Esau?

This has puzzled me. But my finger keeps wanting to point at the Palestinians. But another finger wants to point at the Syrians and Radical Lebanese Shiite Muslim population.

And yet an even more twisted idea is this: That the citizens of Israel, the 'jews', are Edomites, and the Palestinians are the actual blood descendants of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, making the children of Israel (the palestinians) in bondage via the Edomites of esau (the Israelis). I do not believe this to be the case, but it is a twisted one nonetheless!

Originally posted by runetang
Mike, old buddy old friend, I'm no longer post banned.

Funny you mention Esau, his descendants are the Edomites. And there are many prophecies explaining how the Edomites will conspire to control the children of David & Israel, even though they will be a minority among them. King Herod was an Edomite, descendant of Esau.

In the end times, it's prophecized in Daniel or Ezekiel that the Edomites will be in control of the Jews at the time of Meshiach's arrival, or the second coming of Jesus. The Messiah is supposed to free them from their bondage, and 'break them out' of the Edomite's grasp.

If modern day descendants of Ishmael are the various Arab tribes, and those of Isaac are the 12 tribes of Israel, 10 of which have been scattered amongst former Assyria in its greatness (From Syria to Afghanistan), meaning Judah and Benjamin are the two remaining tribes in Israel; who are the modern descendants of Esau?

This has puzzled me. But my finger keeps wanting to point at the Palestinians. But another finger wants to point at the Syrians and Radical Lebanese Shiite Muslim population.

And yet an even more twisted idea is this: That the citizens of Israel, the 'jews', are Edomites, and the Palestinians are the actual blood descendants of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, making the children of Israel (the palestinians) in bondage via the Edomites of esau (the Israelis). I do not believe this to be the case, but it is a twisted one nonetheless!

Oddly throughout history rabbis have called Rome and later Christianity Esau and Edom. I'm not sure how that works out. I have seen where people tried to trace Rome back to Edom. I have also seen where various monarchies dating back to Charlemagne claim to have some connection to the House of David. What if that connection is really to the House of Herod, an Edomite? Who really holds Israel in bondage the Palestinians? I dont think they do. They dont have the power to. Only an external presence has the power to drive Israeli settlers from their homes, threatening Israel that it will withdraw its financial support if Israel does not do as it is told.

I have heard about this British Israel theory. I have heard it was created by racists, but the idea is that in the past The Tribe of Dan settled in the British Isles. What if they were in fact Edomites, not Israelites?

Who knows? Its fun to speculate.

My original intention of the thread was to open people's eyes. Arabs and Jews are brothers. I wish that this understanding could be reached. We should stop demonizing each other.

The Christians need to stop demonizing Jews and Arabs. I keep hearing Americans calling for Genocide against the Arab world. Presidential Candidate Tom Tancredo calling for the bombing of Mecca? I dont know if that is a true story or not but it illustrates the point.

Genocide against the Arab world would be the same as the Holocaust. Christendom would be slaughtering the Children of Abraham, not demons.
The Protestant and Catholic World must see Abraham's Children not the forces of evil.

It puts the entire region, the War on Terror, the Arab-Israeli struggle, the Mid East Peace process, and History in a completely different light.

My original intention of the thread was to open people's eyes. Arabs and Jews are brothers. I wish that this understanding could be reached. We should stop demonizing each other.

You obviously don't live in the Arab world. In the Arab world the Protocols of Zion are commonly believed to be true. There are often television shows depecting Jews eating Christian and Muslim babies.

This is great example of how overrated truth is. The fact that Jews and Arabs very well might be brothers has no impact. It doesn't matter how right you are. They are currently culturally opposed, at least in Islamic Nations like Iran and Syria.

Truth doesn't stand a chance against Hate.

Originally posted by Quazga

You obviously don't live in the Arab world. In the Arab world the Protocols of Zion are commonly believed to be true. There are often television shows depecting Jews eating Christian and Muslim babies.

This is great example of how overrated truth is. The fact that Jews and Arabs very well might be brothers has no impact. It doesn't matter how right you are. They are currently culturally opposed, at least in Islamic Nations like Iran and Syria.

Truth doesn't stand a chance against Hate.

I was in Iraq in 2003. American soldiers live there, albeit on fortified bases. We do get to know the locals. I know there is hate. Its not by everyone but many loud, vocal people spew their hate on a regular basis. This happens all over not just the Muslim world. Seems like alot of Americans think the Protocols are real too. That some how Zionists control the fate of America either through bankers or Israel itself.

Not all Arabs and Muslims are Conspiracy Theorists or hate Jews. Four of my close friends I made in the military were Muslim, one was Pakistani and the other three were Black Muslims. I have a Palestinian neighbor here in America who I get along with. When Jews and Muslims step back and look at what they have in common they realize they arnt that far apart after all. We are closer in tradition and belief than any other group of people on earth.

I think Truth does stand a chance. Living in Germany for three years proved that to me.





[edit on 10/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

The thing is, hatred comes in many forms. The hatred of the Jews by the Arabs is propped up by hatred of many other kinds.

The hatred of the capitalists by the communists, and vice versa.

The hatred of liberals by the conservatives, and vice versa.

The hatred of freedom in every corner of the world, including the US.

Originally posted by Quazga
The thing is, hatred comes in many forms. The hatred of the Jews by the Arabs is propped up by hatred of many other kinds.

The hatred of the capitalists by the communists, and vice versa.

The hatred of liberals by the conservatives, and vice versa.

The hatred of freedom in every corner of the world, including the US.

I agree hatred is compounded but I think there is still hope for some people. There will always be those who hate, but just maybe enough people who dont hate can make a difference. Its happened before. Look at the Catholic Churches relationship with Israel and the Jews now as opposed to the Inquisition, Crusades, etc. I hope it will happen again this time with Islam.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by Quazga
The thing is, hatred comes in many forms. The hatred of the Jews by the Arabs is propped up by hatred of many other kinds.

The hatred of the capitalists by the communists, and vice versa.

The hatred of liberals by the conservatives, and vice versa.

The hatred of freedom in every corner of the world, including the US.

I agree hatred is compounded but I think there is still hope for some people. There will always be those who hate, but just maybe enough people who dont hate can make a difference. Its happened before. Look at the Catholic Churches relationship with Israel and the Jews now as opposed to the Inquisition, Crusades, etc. I hope it will happen again this time with Islam.

I admit, there is a chance. Personally though I think the quickest route is to just expose religion for what it is today, an excuse to hate and nothing more.

Don't get me wrong, I love mystical stuff and Religion. I've spent most of my life studying it and living it. I personally have never been wronged by Relgion. I just have yet to find more than one person in any room who gets it. It's like a bunch of kids with a loaded gun.