This is the source of conflict and war in the world.

*preach mode on*

All of the conflicts, wars, the crusades, gangwars, racism, violence, discrimination, domestic violence, slavery, bulying, greed, capitalism, some forms of socialism and communism on this planet are caused by this:

People see themselves as separate and different from others

Science is busy showing that the opposite is true, and that seperatism and individuality are illusions:

David Bohm and the Implicate Order
www.fiu.edu... Universe as a Hologram
The Field FAQ
CONSCIOUSNESS AND QUANTUM REALITY
Non-Locality and the Unity of Everything

The Physics of Collective Consciousness
The Mysteries & Consequences of Quantum Exploration.
Morphogenetic Fields And Beyond
New research is undermining old ideas of separation



*preach mode off*

Originally posted by TheBandit795
All of the conflicts, wars, the crusades, gangwars, racism, violence, discrimination, domestic violence, slavery, bulying, greed, capitalism, some forms of socialism and communism on this planet are caused by this:

People see themselves as separate and different from others

If i met a clone of myself, i'd kill it.

It the fact that people are all alike and people are violent and compete for resource by nature that causes the problem.

If the "other guy" is just like me but there is only so much food/power/money/whatever to go around, then i'd better tkae him out since he could fill my shoes just as easily as I can. This isn't my actualy philosophy towards life, but it is one way of thinking contrary to your argument.

I'm not talking about it in that way.

People compete because they think that they are separate from each other.


you ..................................... me

While in reality, you are part of me and I am part of you. That way of thinking that you're talking about is still not contrary to my argument, but confirming it.





[Edited on 14-1-2004 by TheBandit795]

Is this theory or fact? If experience has shown me anything its that nobody is the same as the next person, but we are all individuals that just happen to coexist in a shared reality at different points in time. The way life works is exactly how it was set up to be. And that set up includes lots of separation and individualism.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
While in reality, you are part of me and I am part of you.

Oh....creepy.

Hes right, you know, thebandit........
This is something Ive been thinking about all week.....funny how somebody posted on this topic. We were discussing this very thing in another thread.

The nature of human perception is very interesting, and I think more and more, science will point to the reality of a holographic universe. The more you think about it, the more sense it makes.
But thats my opinion.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
I'm not talking about it in that way.

People compete because they think that they are separate from each other.


you ..................................... me

While in reality, you are part of me and I am part of you. That way of thinking that you're talking about is still not contrary to my argument, but confirming it.





[Edited on 14-1-2004 by TheBandit795]

You know that, in reality......that is an opinion.

You can argue that point all you want, and it wont hold any more water than any other argument out there. Thoughts on a collective consciousness couldn never be proven just by there nature.

There is a reason that we see ourselves as seperate entities. If you want to prove or disprove theories regarding a collective consciousness, I would start by figuring wout what really makes us different. What do we know FOR SURE.

Absolutely. Distinctions separate us and cause conflict, but that's not all of it.
We're all equal in one thing - in that we're all absolutely different.
As Kierkegaard said, "You shall love your neighbor!"

I've heard religion is a source of most of the conflict and war. It should not be like this. Muslims vs Christians, Everyone vs the Jews, the Crusades, ect....

Well, on a spiritual level It makes sense. I tend to believe in the Native American way of thinking. I very much believe in the "spirit that moves in all things". Which goes along with with you are part of me and I you belief.

But in reality that is very hard for the worlds population to understand. We all believe we are right in our way of thinking as individuals. My beliefs are better than yours,I see things clearly and you don't. That seems to be the mindset of the day.

I like the fact that we are "different " from each other. We may be connected spiritually, but I like the ethnic,religious, and cultural differences.

What a boring world we would live in if everyone was the same.

I like going to "chinatown", "greektown", "little village"(mexican), Ukrainian Village, and so on.

I like learning about different peoples and cultures. The only way to experience the purity of it is to travel to their home-countries, or go to a section of the city, where that group is concentrated.

I didn't say " I want to be seperate from them".

I just like the differences we have with each other. Helps me to understand different culture's mentalities.

Just my opinion

Originally posted by Seapeople

You know that, in reality......that is an opinion.

You can argue that point all you want, and it wont hold any more water than any other argument out there. Thoughts on a collective consciousness couldn never be proven just by there nature.

There is a reason that we see ourselves as seperate entities. If you want to prove or disprove theories regarding a collective consciousness, I would start by figuring wout what really makes us different. What do we know FOR SURE.

That's why I posted scientific papers and experiments that support this. It is scientific fact already.

I think you miss the point. I think there is a distinct feeling of being separate. The only time I didn't feel that was in the weeks following the Sept 11th disaster. I felt like I was part of a nation-wide mourning, sorta. But we all cary on our separate lives, in our separate APARTments, in our own separate little cars, and in our own separate little worlds. There is no sense of community, there is no sense that your neighbor is one of your closest friend's and allies, and there is no sense that you are a part of something greater. All you feel is a connection with the few remote people you can find commonalities with. People in the US think of people in the Arab world as "those people" and they all think of us the same (or worse I am sure). It is sad really.

My relative's wife was telling me about how she and her family, during the winter, would leave for a small town in mexico for a couple of weeks. She talked about how in this town there were only a few families, so at night people would gather in the town square and just talk, hang out, and generally party. Now I know these are fairly close families, but I have never seen that kind of thing in the US. Sure there are gatherings, but there is this overwhelming sense that everyone is separate, and that people just respect that. In some places you even get this feeling that everyone is too good for everyone else! The sad thing is that no matter how much I want to condemn them (notice I used that word) I am no better.

-P

Originally posted by ScienceGuyQ

Originally posted by TheBandit795
All of the conflicts, wars, the crusades, gangwars, racism, violence, discrimination, domestic violence, slavery, bulying, greed, capitalism, some forms of socialism and communism on this planet are caused by this:

People see themselves as separate and different from others

If i met a clone of myself, i'd kill it.

It the fact that people are all alike and people are violent and compete for resource by nature that causes the problem.

If the "other guy" is just like me but there is only so much food/power/money/whatever to go around, then i'd better tkae him out since he could fill my shoes just as easily as I can. This isn't my actualy philosophy towards life, but it is one way of thinking contrary to your argument.

O.k. I y'all misunderstood me.

Take a quote of David Bohm.

On this stream, one may see an ever-changing pattern of vortices, ripples, waves, splashes, etc., which evidently have no independent existence as such. Rather, they are abstracted from the flowing movement, arising and vanishing in the total process of the flow. Such transitory subsistence as may be possessed by these abstracted forms implies only a relative independence or autonomy of behaviour, rather than absolutely independent existence as ultimate substances.

So a waterfall for example is different from a whirlpool. It behaves differently and it influences the enviroment in a different way. You can say that they (fall and pool) are individual things. Yet they're part of the same river or stream.

Originally posted by parrhesia
Absolutely. Distinctions separate us and cause conflict, but that's not all of it.
We're all equal in one thing - in that we're all absolutely different.
As Kierkegaard said, "You shall love your neighbor!"

Yes, we are different, but not seperate. We are different only on the physical, habitual and mental level. (for lack of a better word or phrase).

Originally posted by nathraq
I like the fact that we are "different " from each other. We may be connected spiritually, but I like the ethnic,religious, and cultural differences.

What a boring world we would live in if everyone was the same.

I like going to "chinatown", "greektown", "little village"(mexican), Ukrainian Village, and so on.

I like learning about different peoples and cultures. The only way to experience the purity of it is to travel to their home-countries, or go to a section of the city, where that group is concentrated.

I didn't say " I want to be seperate from them".

I just like the differences we have with each other. Helps me to understand different culture's mentalities.

Just my opinion

Yes life would suck if we were all the same. But I don't think that is what Bandit is getting at. Despite our differances we are the same. Nice contradiction isn't it.
We all have the same needs,for the most part.
Think of people like a cherry pie. When you cut the pie you can see the obvious cut marks.(differances) But under the crust the cherry filling is the same. No cut marks. Its all the same goo.

Now in this day and age,we try so hard to be differant,that tolorance and forgivness are pretty much gone. If you don't like the way I think,I will hit you with a bigger stick,till you see my way. Even though what you and myself wants is the same. Peace,love, acceptance to name a few.

I agree with you TheBandit795!

I have also come to realize that this and much more has been known for thousands of years already. The Sage's from centuries ago knew this as did the Shamen and the other Mystics of old. The Principle of "Oneness" has been known and taught in various forms for thousands of years as well and are still most obvious within the teachings of the "Tao" & "Buddha". The teachings of Christ also includes these as well, although much of it has been twisted and misunderstood due to the corruption of religious dogma, similar to other Religions and/or Philosophies throughout the World & History.

The fact that Science and Quantum Physics/Mechanics has recently joined in with conclusions saying the same thing should, hopefully, begin to wake people up to the "Truth of What Is". Of course this also will be of no use until people choose for themselves to find and accept the Truth. Sadly, such willfull endevors are not popular with many, many people as it almost always conflicts with their current lifestyles as well as Oppressive Governments, Controlling Religions, Materialistic Greed, Self-Centered Society, etc.

Personally I just cannot understand why or how ideas such as "Oneness/Wisdom/Compassion/Unity" and other such Universally Rewarding and Life Essential Facts remain unknown and/or uncomprehendible to so many people after all these thousands of years. For some it's impossible not to see it. For others it seems that they just can't or won't accept it. Some even seem to purposely try and hide or destroy it. Eventually the time will come however that living in ways that oppose such Universal Law, be it from ignorance or intent, all life will be forced to pay the price for "Path" that has been taken. Hopefully enough people will "Awaken" and find "The Way" to end the cycle of suffering that has plagued us for these countless Eons!

Another comparison. Your neurons and your bloodcells are of one body. They are part of the same body. Yet they are very different from each other and bloodcells can attack certain cells if they become cancerous. But in a deeper sense, the bloodcell is attacking itself.

BUMP!!!

Sometimes, I get rather shocked by the lack of sociology being taught in schools these days. This is definitely one of those times. Let's go back to 101, shall we?

1. Groups and Hierarchies

Most animals (including humans) have evolved in such a way as to be hard-wired as to define groups adn their positions within. It's a survival mechanism bred into us. One of the main reasons hierarchies and groups exist is to channel aggression outside the group. for example,while ritualized fighting exists in every group (whether you see it or not) it is extraordinarily rare for these REGULAR incidents to be fatal or even cause real harm. Most of the group's aggression to channeled outside the group, instead of being kept inside and potentially affecting survival rates.

So, as an example, it's pretty common for wolves in a pack to spar in order to establish a pecking order. However, it is rare to ever see a wolf kill a packmate. However, if two seperate wolf packs were to meet, there is something in the oder of a 50% chance of fighting breaking out.

2. Group Identification

Okay, let's move on to a slightly more advanced lesson. How do we define groups? two ways.

The first is a fairly basic one - bloodline. You say "My name is John Smith" and people assume you're an American. "Claude Lapointe" labels you a frenchman, and so on. this is fairly basic, and based on the second group identifier- language.

How do we define a nation? A person? By what they speak. An American goes to Germany, he's out of place unless he speaks the language well. People will treat him differently because he is an outsider. OH, don't worry, every language has a word for them. Barbarian is a Greek word, which meant anyone not greek. Another example is Au�enstehende in German and gaijin in Japanese. Let's have another example.

Okay, so we have our Isrealis and our Palestinians. How do they identify each other?

The answer is mostly language. The Palestinians speak Arabic, while the Isrealis speak Yiddish. There's a lot fo complications to THAT kettle of fish, but that's the jist of it. Herr Doktor once said that "The only way to make them stop fighting is to give them a universal language, drag everyone off the land and nuke it." Somehow, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the truth.

To sum this all up, groups have always existed. It's an evolutionary thing. We identify them primarily by language, lilt, ect. and then by look.As we are pack animals, we basically direct any and all aggression we have at anyone not of OUR group. Don't think this will all go away overnight if we all became the same person. It's bred into us.

DE