Alien logic?

Here's something I was just pondering. I imagine this point must have been hit on by someone at some point here, but it's kind of a vague thing for which to search, so I decided to start a thread.

This is not necessarily my position, but rather a challenge to the arguments that alien visitation is essentially harmless to humankind. I myself would be inclined to argue along these lines, but then I started thinking...what if we simply do not and cannot understand the motivations of people from other worlds?

Consider how difficult it is to understand the motivations and actions of many humans on this planet, and then consider how much more difficult it might be to understand the motivations and actions of people from other planets, dimensions, what have you, who have probably evolved under completely different conditions. Think of how many variables impact human behavior - psychological, cultural, religious, historical, etc. What if alien beings operate under an entirely different logic than we do? What if they have cultures with values we cannot begin to comprehend? We know so little, after all.

What if it is merely a game for an alien civilization to play around with a more primitive world for a few thousand years before destroying them? Sort of like a cat toying with a mouse before the kill. Who knows? Certainly none of us. We have all these assumptions that in order to advance to space faring status, a civilization must have their crap together, spiritually, psychologically, etc. What if that has got nothing to do with it?

See what I'm getting at here? The great fear is that they are simply too different from us to understand their motivations and behavior. Therefore who knows whether they are positive, negative, or neutral? Maybe in their minds vivisecting humans is a positive, spiritual thing to do. Who knows?

I'm reminded of Stephen Bassett's comment in an interview in which he said that although he is in favor of disclosure, he's not prepared to go all the way to the point where he thinks alien visitations are all good and peaceful (unlike, say, Greer's philosophy). I think we ought to consider that the two ends of the spectrum on the issue of disclosure - "They're harmless so why not come clean and we can reap the benefits," and "They're too dangerous so we have to cover it up until we can deal with them effectively" - might both be missing the mark. Maybe the argument for disclosure has to be, "We don't know who or what we are dealing with here, so we'd better the get the info we do have out there in order to be best prepared."

there is no proof that alien exist.

Originally posted by CrowServo
This is not necessarily my position, but rather a challenge to the arguments that alien visitation is essentially harmless to humankind. I myself would be inclined to argue along these lines, but then I started thinking...what if we simply do not and cannot understand the motivations of people from other worlds?

It's almost impossible for us not to project our own way of thinking onto a hypothetical alien, since all we know about intelligence and motivation is what we've been exposed to on this planet. That projection might be entirely wrong, and we might not have a clue as to what goes on in an alien mind.

The only thing that might be on our side is the possibility that if life exists elsewhere in the Universe, it would be subjected to the same kinds of evolutionary pressures experienced by life on Earth. Weather extremes, competition between lifeforms, etc. The idea is that if the evolutionary pressures are the same, the results would be the same. Parallel evolution, which would create creatures recognizably similar to ourselves, and with similar thought processes and motivations.

If that's the case, we may be in for a bad surprise if we ever happen to run into these things. We can expect them to be every bit as aggressive, predatory, and dangerous as we are. Space might be the ultimate extension of the whole eat-or-be-eaten setup we have here on Earth.

It seems to me that the argument that alien beings would be benign lies in the philosophical position that there are universal principles inherent to all sentient life. If there is some universal ethical code, then we might be okay, because perhaps the assumption is that the further one species is in its evolution, the closer they get to the core truths of the universe.

But that's making a lot of assumptions. How difficult is it for many of us to understand something as narrow as another culture, religion, nation, etc? Then imagine an entirely different planet, potentially having just as many disparate cultures and belief systems. And then think of all the different civilizations which may or may not be visiting us, each having as much diversity. It boggles the mind. If we still deal with issues like racism, sexism, religious wars, etc...how much conflict would there be with such a multitude of different peoples from other worlds visiting our own?

I want disclosure as much as anybody...but if this notion is correct, then maybe I can kind of see why it would freak out world governments. This has been mentioned before, but maybe they are just so in the dark and scared themselves that they do not know what to do. Sure, perhaps the very notion that we are being visited by alien beings would not create mass panic...but what would happen once we started interacting with those beings en masse? Or worse, what if disclosure happened and the truth was the government knows and controls very little, and things keep going on as they have been? What do we do then?

A lot of "what ifs" I know, but it bears thinking about.

Originally posted by umbracode
there is no proof that alien exist.

there is also no proof that they don't exist.

Originally posted by SuicideVirus

Originally posted by CrowServo
This is not necessarily my position, but rather a challenge to the arguments that alien visitation is essentially harmless to humankind. I myself would be inclined to argue along these lines, but then I started thinking...what if we simply do not and cannot understand the motivations of people from other worlds?

If that's the case, we may be in for a bad surprise if we ever happen to run into these things. We can expect them to be every bit as aggressive, predatory, and dangerous as we are. Space might be the ultimate extension of the whole eat-or-be-eaten setup we have here on Earth.

or, on the other hand, earth could be an anomaly and totally unlike average conditions found elsewhere.

or, my personal favorite, the whole Darwinian "survival of the fittest" thing is a crock of # fed to us by the elites of this world to justify their elite prerogative. you know, Darwin never said survival of the fittest. Some freak social scientists by the name of Herbert Spencer said that.



[edit on 8-8-2007 by jimjamjerry]

well i mean who's to say that all the aliens will bring havoc and destruction upon disclosure. at the same time who's to say that all the aliens will bring peace and enlightenment. do you catch my drift?
for all we know within the same species of aliens, some may be
'good guys' and some may be 'bad guys'

It is certainly true that our reasoning serves as a yardstick for perceiving the motives of alleged aliens. As such, it is difficult to visualize a group of beings/entities/creatures that have evolved a space-faring but hive-minded society. Or perhaps, a group whose intellect is not stimulated by curiosity, but by something far more abstract.

Still, to presume they are here on a specific mission is absurd because it still presumes that our planet and race is somehow "special", and must be watched by these benevolent beings. It is also to assume that these beings are intimately aware of our history and current military developments.

As a reference, I would like to point out that one probably couldn't tell the Government Headquarters from "The Polyquad Ultravision Chamber" on an alien planet simply by flying over it. Trust me; I tried.

Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw

As a reference, I would like to point out that one probably couldn't tell the Government Headquarters from "The Polyquad Ultravision Chamber" on an alien planet simply by flying over it. Trust me; I tried.

ya but I would presume if some race was interested in us they'd a) learn the languages and b) monitor the transmissions so that c) they'd have a pretty good idea what's going on.

heck, on this planet, the aliens surrounding our planet in their invisible ships probably have a better idea about what's going on than your average earthling.

Originally posted by jimjamjerry

ya but I would presume if some race was interested in us they'd a) learn the languages and b) monitor the transmissions so that c) they'd have a pretty good idea what's going on.

I think this still assumes that they would immediately know where to begin. In order to "monitor transmissions", they would have to know the transmissions exist, and are likely encrypted. They'll have to know what encryption means, and how to decrypt messages. It wouldn't be as easy as plugging in an FM radio.

Imagine, for instance, that a space-faring humanity comes across a large planet-wide civilization in a nearby star system. We choose to observe it from a distance, perhaps to glean the goings on. After many (Earth) days, nothing piques our interest: all we see are numerous citizens going about their daily business. We conclude they have developed an interesting social structure -- and a complex architecture -- but we assume they haven't delved into space exploration yet. We decide to leave them undisturbed.

Unknown to us, this civilization is actually an advanced (if somewhat bizarre) evolution of the hive society. Only one person on the entire planet possesses speaking faculties: she is known as the Queen Mind, and she resides in a subterranean chamber hidden deep below the city. From there, she controls the affairs of the city through a direct telepathic link to each citizen. She is also safe from being probed by other telepathic civilizations - some which happen to be enemies.

How would we begin to interact with such a planet? In my scenario, we would know nothing of their species without speaking to a "Queen Mind". Even then, what if she was unable to communicate with us, due to our (currently) undeveloped telepathic abilities?


It must be remembered that we appear just as "alien" to any extraterrestrials as they do to us. We could have developed along a completely different evolutionary tangent: we could be the exception - the oddities, perhaps - in this part of the Galaxy.

I think it's best to keep an open mind. Our visitors are bound to fall within a category we can react to: they will be classed as either hostile, benevolent (unlikely though that may sound) or neutral explorers. But until we can categorize their intentions/actions, it may be best to avoid classifying them all as one thing or another. Think briefly of those who swear that the so-called "grays" and "reptilians" are hostile, and their opponents who swear that the reptilians are actually a nice bunch...

Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw

Originally posted by jimjamjerry

ya but I would presume if some race was interested in us they'd a) learn the languages and b) monitor the transmissions so that c) they'd have a pretty good idea what's going on.

I think it's best to keep an open mind. Our visitors are bound to fall within a category we can react to: they will be classed as either hostile, benevolent (unlikely though that may sound) or neutral explorers. But until we can categorize their intentions/actions, it may be best to avoid classifying them all as one thing or another. Think briefly of those who swear that the so-called "grays" and "reptilians" are hostile, and their opponents who swear that the reptilians are actually a nice bunch...

I think that any civilization smart enough to figure out space travel is going to "know" where to start when they contact a world. but i take your points.

How bout this scenario.

an advanced alien race with advanced space travel, advanced spiritual abilities, and advanced telepathic abilities comes to this earth. They see the lunacy and the paranoia and the war like governmental leaders and realize they can't engage in open contact. Instead, they send in "agents" into human bodies. these agents are born in human bodies, grow up, and then when they get old enough, they begin communicating with their mother ships. at that point they begin downloading information into the "information systems" of this earth designed to help the earthlings wake up and develop their spiritual sensibilities. eventually, a few humans here and there start to "wake up" and begin communicating. from that point on the alien race enters into "open" communication with people of this earth as they begin the slow process of "opening the eyes" of others to the fact of contact. Eventually, say around 2012, there's enough people who are aware of alien contact that it becomes safe for the thousands of ships, currently invisible in the stratosphere, to become visible.

at that point the ships become visible. a lot of people are taken by surprise and maybe react with fear and paranoia. but a lot more just look up to the sky's and breathe a sigh of relief.

Contact DAY!!!

hooray!!!!!!!!!

the fearful and paranoid ones, the ones who never "woke up" to the telepathic/spiritual contact, don't stay fearful and paranoid for long. hard to stay fearful and paranoid when those around you are jumping for joy

Originally posted by jimjamjerry
at that point the ships become visible. a lot of people are taken by surprise and maybe react with fear and paranoia. but a lot more just look up to the sky's and breathe a sigh of relief.

Contact DAY!!!

hooray!!!!!!!!!

the fearful and paranoid ones, the ones who never "woke up" to the telepathic/spiritual contact, don't stay fearful and paranoid for long. hard to stay fearful and paranoid when those around you are jumping for joy

Remember; I'm neither believer nor skeptic about these things. It is only fair to take on a "scientific" viewpoint (I know the word has been overused lately): we have nothing to indicate that such a convoluted plan would be hatched up by anyone when there are perfectly easier and straightforward paths to take. Why go through the trouble of strategically planting these "agents" in human bodies when these "advanced beings" could come, do what they want and leave without suffering casualties? Why would they go through the secrecy?

Also, we currently have no concrete information on life outside the body - only a lot of questions. To state that an extraterrestrial civilization essentially functions in this "dimension" would be to assume that you understand what it is and how it functions, and have evidence to support your claims. Arguing about this "agent" scenario would probably lead to a lengthy and unpleasant discussion about what happens during birth (i.e how cognition/consciousness arises from a combination of cells, and perhaps what consciousness is). No point in going that route.

I have read up on what you have written, so the scenario is not new to me. To put it simply, I do not ascribe to that belief, as romantic as it sounds. Seriously consider the size of this planet, and the number (and condition) of its inhabitants. How do you go about approaching a planet that lacks a united front? Worse, how would you accomplish this without knowing anything about them? I think humanity could study that question. It could lead to new insights about how we function -- and perhaps, prepare us for the eventuality of such contact, if it is indeed in our future.

Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw

Originally posted by jimjamjerry
at that point the ships become visible. a lot of people are taken by surprise and maybe react with fear and paranoia. but a lot more just look up to the sky's and breathe a sigh of relief.

Contact DAY!!!

hooray!!!!!!!!!

the fearful and paranoid ones, the ones who never "woke up" to the telepathic/spiritual contact, don't stay fearful and paranoid for long. hard to stay fearful and paranoid when those around you are jumping for joy

Why would they go through the secrecy?


Also, we currently have no concrete information on life outside the body - only a lot of questions. To state that an extraterrestrial civilization essentially functions in this "dimension" would be to assume that you understand what it is and how it functions, and have evidence to support your claims. Arguing about this "agent" scenario would probably lead to a lengthy and unpleasant discussion about what happens during birth (i.e how cognition/consciousness arises from a combination of cells, and perhaps what consciousness is). No point in going that route.

I have read up on what you have written, so the scenario is not new to me. To put it simply, I do not ascribe to that belief, as romantic as it sounds. Seriously consider the size of this planet, and the number (and condition) of its inhabitants. How do you go about approaching a planet that lacks a united front? Worse, how would you accomplish this without knowing anything about them? I think humanity could study that question. It could lead to new insights about how we function -- and perhaps, prepare us for the eventuality of such contact, if it is indeed in our future.

you go about the secrecy because you want to "uplift" the planet and bring them forward into a higher, more spiritual way of being.

as for what happens at birth, your soul, your spirit, enfolds your cells and animates your body. consciousness isn't located in the brain. Consciousness exists independently of the body. it only "contact" the body to activate and bring life to the cells.

as for how to approach the problem, well the best way is to put an "agent" in a human body. then the agent really is human and knows all there is to know. when they start to "awaken" and remember, they've got this huge body of first hand knowledge to work with. once they are ready, they then "begin their mission" and start gently moving people forward into the spiritual/technological truths of advanced civilization.

i think its a cool theory and what a great way to introduce a primitive world to advanced civilization--from the inside out!

Originally posted by jimjamjerry
i think its a cool theory and what a great way to introduce a primitive world to advanced civilization--from the inside out!

Again, you are reiterating beliefs. I too would like to believe that our consciousness is an eternal, free-roaming thing -- but to all indications, your brain can also be stimulated to simulate sensations and perceptions. I read this interesting article recently; it documents a gentleman's self-prescribed experiment that was six seconds in the making. If it wasn't made up, he was able to experience an eternity for three seconds, using a device he built.

At this time, I do not wish to discuss the veracity of his story. As I have said before, it is best to keep an open mind about these things, since we don't conclusively know. You appear to insist that your theory is fact: If I have interpreted this correctly, then I must immediately reassure you that it isn't: not without observable or measurable proof.

We all are encouraging disclosure for what ever reasons each individual has, either by Governments or the Aliens themselves but I strongly believe the Aliens have been disclosing themselves for thousands of years to whatever populations existed on this planet. There are many ancient megaliths such as Easter Island, Stonehenge, Nazca Peru, Egyptian Pryamids, Ireland and its megalithic burial mounds, possibly Atlantis, bible accounts, medieval paintings, South America and many others that human kind tries to interpret as our ancestors built this or that. Why would these figures in Naza, especially the human one with his right hand raised, be on the ground, only to be seen from the air. Another one in Blythe, Calif., 171 feet tall also. Why would a group of natives on some remote island in the Pacific erect huge megalithic stone statues facing the sea. Each one of these projects required the movement and placing of stones in the tonnage and the pat answer is always with ropes, levers and a whole bunch of people with nothing better to do. I think they've been here for millions of years. The Aliens could have been the ones that directed the asteroid 65 million years ago that wiped out the dinosaurs. We talk about the same technology today. Who would want to step out of their space ship with all those meat eaters hanging around? After a couple of hundred years the Earth would have been safe to colonize.

Ancient civilizations and their corresponding megalithic structures are often cited as evidence of extraterrestrial interaction (or interference) in our history. Some time ago, I was a firm believer in the theories - until I did a little more research. At this time, I'm not making any conclusions.

I'm certainly open to the idea of these "ancient astronauts". If a very old (and still active) "Super race" went around seeding planets and monitoring their subsequent growth, it would explain why we are similar to the "beings" we describe. However, the only available evidence of contact we have is in the form of blurry photographic evidence, memories that have been labeled as "unreliable", and outright hoaxes... so I have chosen to examine other ideas.

On the other side of the "Alien progenitor" theory, one could consider that our past civilizations may have been more advanced than we give them credit for. Humankind's ingenuity can be seen in the works of great thinkers and scientists of the distant and recent past: Archimedes, Socrates, Plato, Einstein, Möbius, Newton, Tesla. None of these were aliens - as far as I know - yet they were capable of "seeding" developments in their fields of specialization. Think also of the countless intelligent people that never made it to fame or fortune: it isn't outrageous to think that more such intellectuals could have also peppered our past - no matter how far back you look.

I conclude with a word of caution, perhaps. We should not align ourselves to viewing the extraterrestrial phenomenon in just one light. It would be akin to looking at the Universe through the eyes of the Church: a geocentric existence that was, until a few hundred years ago, gospel truth. As the original poster said, there is a great chance that our visitors or neighbors - depending on how we find them - may be "mind-shreddingly" different... and perhaps, not interested in us in the least.