When Jesus was crucified, he did not die

Originally posted by DarkSide
How can he return if he never existed to begin with?

That is your opinion not a fact. Stating that God doesn't exsist is because your angry will not make it a fact. How do you think we all came into exsistance? And how this earth was created? And no big bang theories or say we came from apes.

[edit on 8/16/2007 by Leyla]

Originally posted by Leyla
That is your opinion not a fact.

no, it's a conclusion. there isn't really an solid historical evidence to show that god exists.

Stating that God doesn't exsist is because your angry will not make it a fact.

i doubt darkside is angry, i think ds is just a rational person.

How do you think we all came into exsistance?

well, when a man and a woman are in love... or have had too much to drink..

i hope you know the rest of this story..

well, at least that's how i came into existence

And how this earth was created?

gravity pulled a bunch of floating space crap that was orbiting the sun into a solid ball

And no big bang theories or say we came from apes.

so no science?
gosh, you really can't answer any questions without science...
and again, nobody says we CAME from apes, we still are apes.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
that's another 12... 13 holes in your story. they don't seem to be historical either.

Listen to common sense... Every reliable historian the world over accepts the historicity of the 12 apostles. Do you think the early Christian Churches and the Church of Armenia just sprang up out of thin air? In the last decade, there has been some dispute over the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth himself (no doubt due to the internet, which is 50% misinformation and 50% porn). You can't just cast the opinions of thousands of historians including Cornelius Tactics out the window in order to fit your viewpoint.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
yes. that rebellion was started by people more than a generation removed from the time jesus was supposed to have lived.

Jesus died in 29-36 AD. The persecution began around 60-70 AD, if you don't count the murders of John the Baptist (beheaded by Herod) and Jesus Christ (crucified till dead). So it was more like 30-40 years after Jesus lived, hardly "more than a generation."

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
no i don't, i just realize that THOSE PEOPLE have more faith than you do.

Agreed, so what triggered their incredible faith to the point of accepting an early and painful death? Nothing?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
the new testament isn't exactly a historical book, seeing as it has contradictory sources...

What do you mean by "contradictory sources"?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and the tf jospehus source... it's disputed.

This particular argument can go either way, since the text has evidence for being both authentic and inauthentic. let's just agree to disagree for this one.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
incorrect. my brain is hard wired to accept EVIDENCE. i have no problem with the many of the teachings of jesus, i have no problem with some of the good stuff that is found throughout the bible, the koran, or any other religious text. my brain is hard wired to be scientific. that's the problem here. i'm not anti-jesus, i'm just pro-reason.

I'm also pro-reason. That's what ticks me off about atheists though. They're always touting Pro-Reason, Pro-Logic, Pro-Science among other things, as if to say that Christians and any other religious group have no reason, no logic, and are dumbfounded by science. To me, that's incredibly insulting when idiots like the "Rational Response Squad" (yes thats really what they call themselves) run around arguing that they're using their "rationality" to debate Christians, as if every Christian obviously has a part of their brain missing, therefore they obviously can't use reason.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why aren't there any writings from the pharisees?

They were too busy being killed by the Romans, dude.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
not really, but i find it hard not to include "so did dionysus and mithra." or "and prometheus suffered far greater pain and torture just to give you fire"

Show me the mountain where Prometheus is currently chained and having his liver eaten. Show me the griffins which are supposedly guarding him. I doubt you can show me these, but I can show you the hill at Calvary where Jesus died.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i also tend to do a bit of a laugh whenever i hear the name "jesus" because of how linguistically wrong it must be. it's quite obvious that the name is really either "yeshu" or "yeshua"
nobody in the region was named "jesus"

I've said this many times, God does not listen to our voices, but our hearts. It doesnt matter if we say Jesus' name wrong (which I am well aware of thanks to my pastor), it only matters that we give his name reverence and meaning, instead of using it as a curseword.

Stating that God doesn't exsist is because your angry will not make it a fact.

What makes you think i'm angry?

How do you think we all came into exsistance? And how this earth was created?

Let's say our origins do not involve supernatural entities.

Agreed, so what triggered their incredible faith to the point of accepting an early and painful death? Nothing?

By your logic Islam is the true religion if all those men, women and children are willing to blow themselves up. I mean they wouldn't comit suicide attacks if allah didn't exist right? They must have incredible faith too.

I'm also pro-reason. That's what ticks me off about atheists though. They're always touting Pro-Reason, Pro-Logic, Pro-Science among other things, as if to say that Christians and any other religious group have no reason, no logic, and are dumbfounded by science.

Maybe it's due to the fact that believing in supernatural bearded entities has something about it that's totally irrational.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Listen to common sense... Every reliable historian the world over accepts the historicity of the 12 apostles.

logical fallacy: argument from authority

Do you think the early Christian Churches and the Church of Armenia just sprang up out of thin air?

no, i think they came from bands of followers, not some group of 12 individuals

In the last decade, there has been some dispute over the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth himself (no doubt due to the internet, which is 50% misinformation and 50% porn).

no, it's actually because of the discovery of a forgery within the writings of josephus and some logical inquiry no longer hindered by various churches

You can't just cast the opinions of thousands of historians including Cornelius Tactics out the window in order to fit your viewpoint.

who now? can i get a reference to his mention of jesus and the period in which he lived?

i'm not saying jesus didn't exist, i'm saying it's unlikely that jesus existed/

Jesus died in 29-36 AD. The persecution began around 60-70 AD, if you don't count the murders of John the Baptist (beheaded by Herod) and Jesus Christ (crucified till dead). So it was more like 30-40 years after Jesus lived, hardly "more than a generation."

ok, about a generation.
but now you're using the bible as a historical source when it references events that probably didn't happen... like the slaughter of all those jewish boys that supposedly happened around the time jesus was born (and then there's the inconsistency of placing the census where the book does)

Agreed, so what triggered their incredible faith to the point of accepting an early and painful death? Nothing?

faith. faith is illogical enough, is it not?
what inspires modern extremist muslims to blow themselves up?
what inspires cults to commit mass suicides?

What do you mean by "contradictory sources"?

matthew mark luke and john
they contradict each other on a few points

This particular argument can go either way, since the text has evidence for being both authentic and inauthentic. let's just agree to disagree for this one.

let's just throw out the source, i don't think 1 source should make a difference on whether or not someone existed (unless it's like... an ancient photo of jesus or something...)

I'm also pro-reason. That's what ticks me off about atheists though. They're always touting Pro-Reason, Pro-Logic, Pro-Science among other things, as if to say that Christians and any other religious group have no reason, no logic, and are dumbfounded by science.

no, we're just saying that your reason doesn't go far enough. that's why you have those illogical religious beliefs based on faith.

[qupte]
To me, that's incredibly insulting when idiots like the "Rational Response Squad" (yes thats really what they call themselves) run around arguing that they're using their "rationality" to debate Christians, as if every Christian obviously has a part of their brain missing, therefore they obviously can't use reason.


they don't say that... and the RRS isn't a group of idiots... stop the ad hom attacks before you make more.
they've actually explained that most christians are rational people and just don't apply their reason to that one thing that they believe in, god.

They were too busy being killed by the Romans, dude.

not when they were sentencing jesus...
weren't they known for being a bit meticulous in their record keeping?

Show me the mountain where Prometheus is currently chained and having his liver eaten. Show me the griffins which are supposedly guarding him. I doubt you can show me these, but I can show you the hill at Calvary where Jesus died.

supposedly died.

I've said this many times, God does not listen to our voices, but our hearts. It doesnt matter if we say Jesus' name wrong (which I am well aware of thanks to my pastor), it only matters that we give his name reverence and meaning, instead of using it as a curseword.

i doubt that an omnipotent being would actually care about the use of an individual word...
well, maybe your god, seeing as he seems to be quite a petty being throughout the majority of texts written about him, would

And how this earth was created?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Gravity pulled a bunch of floating space crap that was orbiting the sun into a solid ball.

Really?Wow interesting. So the earth was formed by space junk? So that explains all the junk yards we have.

*And no big bang theories or say we came from apes.*

So no science? Gosh, you really can't answer any questions without science... And again, nobody says we CAME from apes, we still are apes.

Sure you can Madness think better of yourself.

Wow I didn't know we all are 8 foot- 800 lbs harry gorillias. Who would have thought. Darwin must have been right all along.

So that means since you said we were apes that means I can certify you and DS as apes right? Let me go and draw up the papers. lol

(I'm gonna get hurt for this one lol)



[edit on 8/17/2007 by Leyla]

Originally posted by Leyla
Really?Wow interesting. So the earth was formed by space junk? So that explains all the junk yards we have.

*And no big bang theories or say we came from apes.*

I could explain to you how it happened. But let's say your "eye of reason" has been closed for so long it has fossilised and has been covered with moss :p

So that means since you said we were apes that means I can certify you and DS as apes right? Let me go and draw up the papers. lol

(I'm gonna get hurt for this one lol)

I'm an ape, and so are you. 6.5 billion people are apes. You can think "highly" of yourself as much as you want you'll remain an ape, just like someone that thinks he's superman will still smash his face when he tries to fly.

Originally posted by Leyla
Really?Wow interesting. So the earth was formed by space junk? So that explains all the junk yards we have.

your ignorance on the astronomy really astounds me. just watch the run of cosmos by carl sagan, he's far better at explaining all of this than i am... and he has a very soothing voice. you can probably find it somewhere on the internet

Sure you can Madness think better of yourself.

Wow I didn't know we all are 8 foot- 800 lbs harry gorillias. Who would have thought. Darwin must have been right all along.

all gorillas are apes, not all apes are gorillas.

So that means since you said we were apes that means I can certify you and DS as apes right? Let me go and draw up the papers.

...honestly, contribute to the discussion.

(I'm gonna get hurt for this one )

no, you're just wasting everyone's time here.

Madness and Darkside- So you pat each others backs and give each other a star. Whoppi do. It was a joke if your gonna get mad and insult me then I have nothing else to say to you two.

Originally posted by Leyla
Madness and Darkside- So you pat each others backs and give each other a star. Whoppi do. It was a joke if your gonna get mad and insult me then I have nothing else to say to you two.

If Christianity is your choice for a belief system, then I will accept that it is the path that is right and true for you, and for certain I cannot say that I know what is right for anyone but me. I feel we all uniquely follow our differing, individual, not necessarily wrong, paths. It is my view that many of your claims are illogical, yet I don't think its a fact that Jesus did not exist. Nazareth didn't, imo, for another 500 years or so, but Nazarene Jews did, so if he was real, my view is that he was one of them, a Rabbi, if the many instances he is called Rabbi in the bible are right.
The Josephus point ignores the records which show he did not live at the same time as Jesus, and was born around 34 AD. So, he didn't actually see Jesus anyway.
As for the apostles, Jesus family, and his followers... maybe the bible is right, but since there is not a single other writer living in that area, in that time who wrote a thing about any of them, if the bible is to be accepted then it is on faith. The oldest copies of the gospels are from well after Jesus death, so it's not certain that they were not written after the fact.
I like to think he was a real guy, but I admit that it is not based on logic or evidence. The rational conclusion is that the reason no one saw any of them (outside the bible, if true), is cuz they weren't there. Using the bible as a source to prove that the bible is true is specious reasoning, imo. All I am saying is that non-believers have good reasons for being so, as I am sure you have good reasons for your views.

reply to post by BlackGuardXIII


Thank you but I was addressing DS and Madness.

Back on topic-

I do believe that Jesus died for our sins- Thats up to DS and madness to believe.

I don't feel that Jesus was dead when he was taken down, if he was real that is. But, say he is real, and he appeared in person and asked me to choose between eternal damnation, or eternal paradise, on the condition that I let him pay for my sins. I would say I'll pay for my own sins, thank you, Sir, BTW I'm a big fan. Sorry to decline your win win offer where I don't have to pay for my own sins, and then as a bonus I get a pass into heaven. It sounds too good to be true, and were it not against my principles to pass off my sins onto others, to let you take the rap for me, and make you the patsy, I'd love to check out heaven.
Sadly, I also have an issue with this gift concept. They tell me you are offering me a gift, but then they say that all I have to do is devote my life to you. That sounds more like a trade, gifts require no conditions by my reckoning. Besides, my whole life is a pretty steep price. Even if I didn't have to give you a penny, just agree to shirk my responsibility and let you take the fall for me, I still would say no. Jesus is great, but not worth going against my ethics for. What if it is a trap? Couldn't it be that it is a test to see if we are the kind of people who pass the buck, shift the blame, and refuse to try to make good for our own mistakes?
That would make sense to me.
Gandhi, Buddha, the Dalai Lama, and many other non-Christians I admire are said to be hellbound, so I would probably choose to go where they are all things being equal.
I don't buy the whole hell/heaven thing, though. Reincarnation is more likely to me, but, having never died that I can recall, I can't say I know what will happen.

Based on the movie Jesus was beaten bad then he had to cross be since he was in bad shape he was unable to and have to had Simon to help him carry it. I'm sure his treatment was much worse in the bible I do know they used the cat tail whip on him. Which made me cringe when it caught on his ribs then was ripped loose. (On the movie)

How many hours did Jesus hang on the cross? My guess is 6 hours. I know he died later that afternoon then the day turned into darkness and the earth shook causing the temple to split.

They had to rush to bury him since the sabbath was approaching.

Originally posted by Leyla
Based on the movie

that's your first problem.

Jesus was beaten bad then he had to cross be since he was in bad shape he was unable to and have to had Simon to help him carry it.

myth 1, jesus wouldn't have had to carry the full cross, only the bar to the top... if he actually existed, that is.

I'm sure his treatment was much worse in the bible I do know they used the cat tail whip on him.

doesn't say that in the bible, at all. so you know something about an event that happened over 1900 years before you were born and have no reference from first hand sources about. please, tell me the source of you omniscience.

Which made me cringe when it caught on his ribs then was ripped loose. (On the movie)

the movie is innaccurate.

How many hours did Jesus hang on the cross? My guess is 6 hours.

that's odd... a roman crucifixion typically lasted 3 whole days... seems like someone got off easy

I know he died later that afternoon then the day turned into darkness and the earth shook causing the temple to split.

whose account of this event are you using and were they there?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Sighs- movies are never accurate not even the Prince of Eygpt.

I'm curious about the three day roman crucifixtion- I didn't know that.

I'm not doubting God but now I'm wondering whats true and whats not true.

Just say I'm sick and tired of the big wigs twisting the bible.

Originally posted by Leyla
Sighs- movies are never accurate not even the Prince of Eygpt.

yeah.... that one is about as far from accurate as you can go... new kingdom egyptians using slave labor to build pyramids...
using a people that we have no record of the enslavement of...
being liberated by a figure whose existence is questionable.

It seems to me that we each need to believe what is right for us. I was brought up in a Christian environment, but have conclude that isn't enough. I choose to believe in Everything. Good luck to everyone on whichever path you choose; it's the right one for you.