Why God Is Imaginary...

www.godisimaginary.com...

Proof #7 - Understanding religious delusion


Watch the video
Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

* There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
* He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
* During the year, he and the elves build toys.
* Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
* He puts the sack in his sleigh.
* He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
* He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
* He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
* He leaves toys for the children of the household.
* He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
* He does this all around the world in one night.
* Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.

This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

Mod edit: to remove huge copy paste post


[edit on 8/5/2007 by kinglizard]

Mod Edit: to remove huge copy paste post




[edit on 8/5/2007 by kinglizard]

I was going to reply to a totally different thread, but this one will do. Regarding your "delusion" of Santa Claus... I would simply tell you to keep your faith until that time of times, Christmas Eve. If, when you wake up, there are goodies under the tree, then your "delusion" is validated. Otherwise, you need to get on to the next delusion.

I'm not a Mormon. I don't suffer under that particular delusion. Many others do. I say to them the same thing. If your delusion brings you material comfort, then it is not a delusion for you. If, on the other hand, you are simply holding on to it to fill a void, then you have issues.

We all suffer under some delusion or other. Your delusion, like mine often enough, is that we (you and I) can logically repudiate things that make no sense to us. Actually, that works for you, apparently, but not so often for me. Just when I think I find an answer that makes sense, I run into another question and pppphhhht.... Off again on a quest.

Your belief or lack of belief in god/God/gods/Gods is of no real value to anyone but you. If you are dead set on not believing in God, then don't. It's simple... We will all, eventually, and in spite of our best logical efforts, find out the truth.

I, personally, believe in God, and I cannot define it any better than that. I have a comfortable relationship with him/her/it. I talk to him/her/it when I am scared, up against a wall, lonely, happy, successful, or failing miserably. It always seems to bring me comfort, and often times, answers and methods that I don't think I would find on my own.

Having said all of that, I don't try to define my God as a Hairy Fundamentalist Thunderer, nor is he a cosmic muffin. He is, simply, an integral part of my daily life, and being. I feel better when I recognize and associate with him/her/it than I do when I forgo that pleasure.

I wouldn't dream of trying to convince you that you are wrong. For you, it is right. For me, what I do is right. I think that whatever God/god may or may not be, he/she/it is not intrusive, unless you want it, or (going out on a limb here) perhaps, need it.

I do have to say that as I get older, the thought of God, and perhaps some otherworldly "reward" is a comfort to me. My ego does not lend itself to me thinking that there isn't something else. In the sense of my understanding of the Universe, it makes no sense. There is continuity and a "beingness" here that in my mind, makes no sense that way. In other words, I would hate to think that dying is simply the end of it all. If that were the case, I might find myself taking drugs, robbing stores, killing people who piss me off, raping women I find desirable, pillaging in general and just being an all around bad fellow. I don’t believe that ethics and morality exist on a civilization-wide scale without some fundamental principle backing it up. Whether it be for good, or evil.

And so... For whatever reason, and to whatever purpose, my God gives me comfort. Would s/he do the same for you? I don't know. If you've never tried, then that's a shame on you. If you've tried and found it not very fulfilling, then you are probably fine to go on with your way of being and believing.

That's my take, for whatever it may be worth, and probably, the extent of my religion. The rest just kind of follows suit.

Thanks for the opportunity to get it off my chest.

Jimbo999,
I'm going to agree with you on one note. Our family has never taught santa claus to our children. You're right in saying that myth mixed with reality can make the reality questionable.

We aren't mormon or Jehovah witness. We're old time pentecostal, for the most part.

When I became a christian, I was into palm reading, feminism and socialism. I wasn't even looking for God unless he was a Female(whom I could relate to)If God shows you something of himself, You cannot doubt it.

Maybe you don't have anyone to pray for you, like I did.

When you ask God a question and he answers, it is the greatest feeling in the world, especially when you know he loves you.

oh how i love the simple proofs. i actually have a thread on FST that states i'll eat my hat if anyone can refute all the proofs.

Religion is a very powerful and extremely hard to disloge meme. Even these simple proofs will not be enough to a believer, unless he/she is already in an advanced stage of doubting.

Originally posted by DarkSide
Religion is a very powerful and extremely hard to disloge meme. Even these simple proofs will not be enough to a believer, unless he/she is already in an advanced stage of doubting.

I think that "non-believers" get too hung up on the technicality of the word "religion". Personally, the path I have found works for me, and has netted me a number of benefits that I don't understand. I also, do not see the way that I am going as being tied to a religion. A belief in a superior being, no matter how you perceive him/her/it (here we go again with the vagueries of gnosticism... ), does not entitle me or you, for that matter to the adjective, religious.

Further, I am curious as to why, when non-believers post, they go out of their way to try and make a statement from a position of superiority. Funnily, I run into the same stances and covers of inferiority when I post from a position of skeptic on the Aliens and UFO threads.

My above statement ought to tell you something about my particular "religious" faith. It is a matter of something that works for me, as is. I don't press it on anyone, nor do I preach for conversion. Further, I do not pray for your salvation. In my estimation, any search that you do or do not do, is entirely up to you. And any salvation that you may, or may not achieve, any enlightenment that you do or do not acquire, is entirely up to you.

Further, these simple proofs jimbo posited are not proofs at all. They are merely speculative conclusions, based on the original poster's observations. If the original poster, or you, for that matter, have not tried my method, or at least, more than one method, before not being satisfied, and you are merely reacting to your perceived emotional observations, then you have absolutely no grounds for making such a silly statement.

I guess I really could give a tinker's damn as to whether you believe in a deity, or not. I simply stated I absolutely know what works for me, and how I work with it.

I don't see any benefit to being dislodged (I think that's what you really meant to spell). Personal ways of being, and perceiving one's relationship or non-relationship to a deity, are not something that should be perceived as something to be dislodged. You make it sound like a team game, and it is nothing like that. I don't think... Or, do you get some kind of bonus check if you pursuade me to change my mind, and thus my side?

I guess I should have finished with a statement similar to those used when dealers are hawking new automobiles, to wit:

Due to age, experience, number of original thoughts, open-mindedness, or ability to process cogent thought, and ability to not spout ill thought out and badly mis-spelled clap-trap simply to appear enjenou, your mileage may vary.

Ahhh. Santa Claus.
And here I was expecting some pseudomath, where the Virgin Mary equaled -1.

Isn't alot to do with evolution anyways. The religion bashing forum is 2 doors to the left.

Originally posted by emjoi
Ahhh. Santa Claus.
And here I was expecting some pseudomath, where the Virgin Mary equaled -1.

Isn't alot to do with evolution anyways. The religion bashing forum is 2 doors to the left.

Heheh...good point. But then - we get so many religious extremists on this thread trying to de-bunk evolution, I felt maybe it was time to turn the tables on them...

J.

Originally posted by jimbo999
www.godisimaginary.com...

Proof #7 - Understanding religious delusion


Watch the video
Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

* There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
* He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
* During the year, he and the elves build toys.
* Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
* He puts the sack in his sleigh.
* He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
* He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
* He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
* He leaves toys for the children of the household.
* He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
* He does this all around the world in one night.
* Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.

This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

Mod edit: to remove huge copy paste post



Most of this info has been edited down for space reasons - so please refer to the link at the top to read the whole text - which I think is a very susinct and logical repudiation of organised religion.

J.
[edit on 8/5/2007 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by sigung86
Further, I am curious as to why, when non-believers post, they go out of their way to try and make a statement from a position of superiority. Funnily, I run into the same stances and covers of inferiority when I post from a position of skeptic on the Aliens and UFO threads.

I think most of the time its the believers that take the statement as being 'superior' just as we non believers take the religious 'holier than thou' statements as an enforcement of perceived authority - which we dont like, as it seems nor do you.

On topic - I would have to agree that god is imaginary - even if a god does exist, it is invisible so therefore non tangible and any effort to 'see' god would involve the imagination.

G

It could be argued that God does exist, but only in our minds, and only as the personification of the concept of pure goodness - a controller of morality and ethics.

If that is true, it would be practically impossible for a human construct to have the power needed to create matter. In other words, "God" did not create the Universe.

Assuming of course, the Universe as we perceive and observe is also not a human construct or a projection of the collective unconscious.

[edit on 8/6/2007 by prototism]

[edit on 8/6/2007 by prototism]

Originally posted by jimbo999

Originally posted by emjoi
Ahhh. Santa Claus.
And here I was expecting some pseudomath, where the Virgin Mary equaled -1.

Isn't alot to do with evolution anyways. The religion bashing forum is 2 doors to the left.

Heheh...good point. But then - we get so many religious extremists on this thread trying to de-bunk evolution, I felt maybe it was time to turn the tables on them...

J.

Interesting...

Now Isee a little more where you are coming from. You want a fight with some die hard fanatical fundamentalist.

I need to not waste my time posting here any longer. I certainly don't dismiss evolution, nor do I subscribe to any formalized religion. I do believe they have much to answer for.

However, and be that as it may, I wish you much luck. I don't believe you will turn the tables on them, as you so quaintly put it.

Things like religion don't do much in the way of allowing for an open mind. And, even if it did, I suppose there would still be many out there, who couldn't see that not only is evolution not the answer as neither is God created in seven days, but also, there is a great possibility that one could not have existed without the other.

To shihulud and protism:

I think most of the time its the believers that take the statement as being 'superior' just as we non believers take the religious 'holier than thou' statements as an enforcement of perceived authority - which we dont like, as it seems nor do you.

On topic - I would have to agree that god is imaginary - even if a god does exist, it is invisible so therefore non tangible and any effort to 'see' god would involve the imagination.

and

It could be argued that God does exist, but only in our minds, and only as the personification of the concept of pure goodness - a controller of morality and ethics.

If that is true, it would be practically impossible for a human construct to have the power needed to create matter. In other words, "God" did not create the Universe.

Assuming of course, the Universe as we perceive and observe is also not a human construct or a projection of the collective unconscious.

A comment for both of you...

I believe that you have limited both whatever God may be, and your own abiities to deal with or communicate with him/her/it.

It is perfectly ok to ex-communicate with whatever force it is that permeates our universe. There are, however, large numbers of people out there, who do commune with that particular spirit, or force, if you will, without ever entering a body of "organized religion".

Robert Anton Wilson, one of the coolest philosphers of our time, delighted in obtaining the same relationship with that force, which he deemed and addressed in the feminine, referring to that force as she, her, and so on.

In keeping with Mr. Wilson's fundamental philosphies, the questions that you can answer, succinctly, are never the truth. I suspect, further, that in stopping and bringing yourselves up short with the answers, or positions that you are espousing, you are selling both yourself and the universal force, very short. And, not trying to come at you from a position of superiority, but... That is a pity... Still I wish you all the best.

See you in the funny papers. I'm outahere!

[edit on 7-8-2007 by sigung86]