Want the Low-down on Freemasonry? This Thread's For You!

Denythestatusquo, billybob: You out there?

I'm interested to read your responses.

Spirit7: It all depends on how you look at it. Me personally, I think people who believe the Bible is inerrant or infallible and take it literally are completely missing the point. Is that straight-forward enough for you?

Do you have anything more specific to ask, or is that it?

Originally posted by The Axeman

in true true friend fashion, these masons admitted something that i would guess any freemason here will admit. the social structure of freemasonry would ALLOW bad apples to use all the secrecy as a a 'veil' for conspiracy. kinda like free speech in america, freemasons have free thought. if just two of them decide to do something, they can easily use the venues provided by the secretive freemasonic structure to do evil.

Yes and no. I would say that it is certainly possible for unscrupulous individuals to use the fraternity as a "veil for conspiracy," but certainly not probable.

I'm not sure what you mean about venues. Could you elaborate a bit please?

you called it 'the fraternity', i called it a venue. simple.

in a society such as freemasonry where secrets are considered paramount, it is a given that there are methods for ensuring complete privacy for small groups. a perfect venue for conspiracy. people are people, whether they wear aprons or not, no?

Originally posted by billybob


you called it 'the fraternity', i called it a venue. simple.

in a society such as freemasonry where secrets are considered paramount, it is a given that there are methods for ensuring complete privacy for small groups. a perfect venue for conspiracy. people are people, whether they wear aprons or not, no?

Sure, but "secrets are considered paramount" by anti-Masons, not Masons. Masons consider their fraternity's secrets to be vestiges of age-old traditions, and even have jokes about them. They aren't considered as being very important outside of preserving tradition, and certainly are not paramount.

The outsider who is opposed to the fraternity is the one who makes a big deal out of them. Probably 90% of Masons don't even remember them after they are initiated.

Originally posted by billybob
you called it 'the fraternity', i called it a venue. simple.

Well that would be fine and good if "the Fraternity" were a "venue" in the way I understand the word. An individual lodge meeting would be a venue, I suppose; or the Grand Master's official visit, or somesuch. But these would not be appropriate places for the type of activity you are alluding to. Even among Masons, the type of activity you suggest is happening would have to take place in secret - that is, away from the upstanding brethren who no doubt would not tolerate such things.

I suggest that evil men will conspire in secret with other evil men, regardless of if they've succeeded in hoodwinking the Lodge with regard to their character or not. Their being Masons or not holds no bearing in this context. It is the nature of evil men, wheresoever dispersed.

in a society such as freemasonry where secrets are considered paramount, it is a given that there are methods for ensuring complete privacy for small groups. a perfect venue for conspiracy. people are people, whether they wear aprons or not, no?

(Let me first "ditto" what ML said; the "secrets" are much less significant to Masons as they are to non-Masons. That makes total sense, right? )

Indeed, people are people; in fact that's why my point above holds water. It doesn't matter if one is a Mason. If you are a bad person you are a bad person. If you are a bad person and a Mason, then you're probably good at hiding the fact that you are a bad person, because, ideally, Masonry rejects "bad people" on principle.

You would be the exception, not the rule.

So really it comes down to this: Is a Mason a person first, and then Mason, or is he a Mason first, then a person?

I guess grouping all Masons together is OK if you want to identify people by their choice of social and spiritual activity, rather than as individual people with individual ideas and feelings. That's not very conducive to an accurate world-view, however.

Wow excellent compilation! Good job and thanks for the hard work!

Originally posted by Masonic Light

For detailed information, I would recommend reading "Freemasonry Ideology" by SS Oberfuhrer Dietrick Schwarz. This was the Nazi Party's official statement on Freemasonry, signed by Himmler. The book condemns Freemasonry because of its use of the Kabalah, which the Nazi's considered Jewish propaganda. It is also states that Freemasonry embodies the principles of political liberalism, which are opposed to a fascist "folkish" state.

I have not had any luck at finding a copy of this. The same two articles referencing it are repeated on numerous web sites, but beyond that nothing. I would very much like to see it and would be grateful if anyone can help me track down a copy.

How approachable are the various lodges regarding their libraries and archives, would it be worth my while writing to UGLE or the German equivalent? (Although getting it in English would be preferable I am quite happy to take it in German if that is all that is available.)

If any of you guys can help me or offer any advice I would be most appreciative.

Thanks

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
How approachable are the various lodges regarding their libraries and archives, would it be worth my while writing to UGLE or the German equivalent? (Although getting it in English would be preferable I am quite happy to take it in German if that is all that is available.)

It depends on what you expect, I'd imagine. I highly doubt if they'd just send you one of their books to borrow, but, you could probably go in and have a look, if you were in the neighborhood and were so inclined. I would let you if it were me, anyway.

I know there are "revolving libraries" that the Brethren may avail themselves of, sort of a mail-order check-out system, but it is only open to members in good standing, and not all lodge libraries participate. Probably most don't; but I know there are a few that do at least.

I'll certainly keep my eyes open for related material and relay anything I find.

The Grand Lodge of British Columbia and Yukon has an EXCELLENT website; you may be able to find more info there, but maybe not. I give it 50/50.

HTH

[edit on 8/17/07 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
How approachable are the various lodges regarding their libraries and archives, would it be worth my while writing to UGLE or the German equivalent? (Although getting it in English would be preferable I am quite happy to take it in German if that is all that is available.)

Hi KT (thought you might like that nickname )

You're in England, aren't you? If you want to let me have your location by u2u I'll give you some addresses of local masonic libraries. Most lodge rooms have a little something, but the best places are usually Provincial Grand Lodges, which are better organized.

If you can get to London, the Library and Museum at Great Queen Street are well worth a visit. The staff are both knowledgeable and helpful. Check out their website here.

you know what i like about freemasons? they like to read and learn. they really are into self-improvement. and their charity and good works are obviously evident.

if there is a dark side to freemasonry(and history supports this idea. ask edgar allen poe, or charles dickens or look into the anti-freemasonry of their times), there is also a dark side to a vengeful god of the bible who demands smiting of unbelievers, sacrifice and blind obedience, and blames his creations for his own mistakes and damns them to eternal torture from.....'satan', the official bad guy darkside dude, ...'the adversary'.

in alien abductions, 1 in 10 actually seems to enjoy the probing.
in freemasonry, if only 1 in 100 is evil, that's still a lot of evil dudes who are good at keeping secrets, and have a built-in networking tool to meet and greet each other.

i'm not attacking freemasonry, but i do attack the idea that once you're a freemason, you are above normal human desires like greed and envy, and other shortcomings, like deceit and subterfuge.

i don't think jews are god's chosen people, either. nor are they all evil. they, like you and i, are simply confused humans, trying to steer the boat of life through the waters of time.

i don't think all priests are good. some rape little boys regularly.

etc.

Originally posted by billybob
you know what i like about freemasons? they like to read and learn. they really are into self-improvement. and their charity and good works are obviously evident.

if there is a dark side to freemasonry(and history supports this idea. ask edgar allen poe, or charles dickens or look into the anti-freemasonry of their times), there is also a dark side to a vengeful god of the bible who demands smiting of unbelievers, sacrifice and blind obedience, and blames his creations for his own mistakes and damns them to eternal torture from.....'satan', the official bad guy darkside dude, ...'the adversary'.

I would have to agree. For Men to place such obviously human characteristics to a god-figure seems to me to be the result of trying to have some way to identify with God. We have those rash feelings of vengeance, etc. But to attribute them to the Creator I think is, um, well silly.

To me it's all part of a bigger picture. God created man, and with him all the infinite intricacies of our potential for either wickedness, or good, or both. I don't think babies are born "evil." I don't think little kids are "evil." I think wickedness is something that we choose (even if subconsiously) based on our surroundings and experiences. There are exceptions, sure, but by and large I think Free Will has a whole lot more to do with someone being a good or bad person. Without evil men, good men could not rise up to oppose them; without the suffering of the less fortunate, good people would not be able to lend a helping hand. It's the quintessential battle of Good vs. Evil - in EVERY aspect of life. No devil, just God's Creations; either finding the "Path" or straying from it. The way I see it, what Jesus had to say only solidifies this belief for me. He doesn't have fit the ancient paradigm of the "Savior-God" that has been thrust upon Him for me to believe in Him, either.

If that means someone labels me as "unchristian" then I say they haven't been paying attention -- or perhaps they've been paying too much attention...

in alien abductions, 1 in 10 actually seems to enjoy the probing.
in freemasonry, if only 1 in 100 is evil, that's still a lot of evil dudes who are good at keeping secrets, and have a built-in networking tool to meet and greet each other.

I'm sure there have been men who committed serious crimes, even as a group, under the auspices that they were Freemasons. It would be very easy to start a group and call it a lodge of Freemasons and do whatever the hell you wanted to do. But that's not what "Freemasonry" is. Someone who says he is a Freemason may be a member of some kind of lodge, but if that lodge doesn't have a legal Charter then they aren't really Freemasons now, are they? They might even have similar initiation rituals, etc. but if they don't have the link to the original Grand Lodge, then we, as members whose lodges DO have the proper dispensations, cannot be held "collectively accountable" for the actions of people outside our "scope of influence," if you will.

in alien abductions, 1 in 10 actually seems to enjoy the probing.
in freemasonry, if only 1 in 100 is evil, that's still a lot of evil dudes who are good at keeping secrets, and have a built-in networking tool to meet and greet each other.

ALL Humans are capable of keeping secrets, and most are quite accomplished at it, regardless whether they are Masons or not. Given your above example, I'd say that you probably have more to worry about from the higher-class university fraternities than from Masonry. Honestly.

i'm not attacking freemasonry, but i do attack the idea that once you're a freemason, you are above normal human desires like greed and envy, and other shortcomings, like deceit and subterfuge.

No doubt I would join in that attack. We're all just people, and just because we belong to a fraternity doesn't make us any less vulnerable to those types of things. I'm certainly not perfect. I'm simply too fond of beer for all that.

But seriously, being a Mason doesn't automatically place you beyond moral reproach, and I don't think that one single Mason would tell you any different. Anti-Masons or Non-Masons on the other hand....

i don't think jews are god's chosen people, either. nor are they all evil. they, like you and i, are simply confused humans, trying to steer the boat of life through the waters of time.

Well let's not get into matters of Faith. No one asked or made it compulsory that you agree with the Jews as to their status as the "Chosen People." A little extra biblical research about the history of Judaism might help you to understand this idea a bit though. Anyway, this is kind of irrelevant to the matter at hand, other than your stating that you don't paint all the members of a group with the same brush.

reply to post by The Axeman


Thank you Axeman, it is a very interesting web-site but they don't seem to have what I'm looking for.

I was hoping for an electronic version, photocopy or if it has been published in English (and if so when and where). If it has been published in a book I should be able to get it through the British Library, but I can't do that until I have more details.

Originally posted by Trinityman

Hi KT (thought you might like that nickname

)

As long as you don't call me 'Old Trout' you can call me what you like.

Originally posted by Trinityman
If you can get to London, the Library and Museum at Great Queen Street are well worth a visit. The staff are both knowledgeable and helpful. Check out their website here.

No plans to visit London in the foreseeable future, though I will check it out the next time I'm in the vicinity - and it is free!! I may drop them a line though...

Thanks for your help and I will U2U shortly.

Best wishes KT (I do like it see)

Originally posted by The Axeman
Anyway, this is kind of irrelevant to the matter at hand, other than your stating that you don't paint all the members of a group with the same brush.

yeah. (one line, teehee)

exactly. (two!!! i abided by the LAW. yay.)

Still looking for a response to: post by The Axeman


I'm still hoping that denythestatusquo will continue this discussion...

Thanks to billybob for replying; however I had hoped for a continued exchange... we kind of left it in the air there.


[edit on 8/27/07 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman
Still looking for a response to: post by The Axeman

 

I'm still hoping that denythestatusquo will continue this discussion...

Thanks to billybob for replying; however I had hoped for a continued exchange... we kind of left it in the air there.

whatdya need?
i'm no anti-mason. literally, some of my best friends and favorite people are masons. the fact that they keep threatening to kill me is taken 95% tongue in cheek.

Thanks Billybob. Sorry to just get back but I've been otherwise engaged...

I would still like denythestatusquo to respond to this post, however.

Apparently I need to address Freemasonry and Zionism again, too.

reply to post by The Axeman


Great work Axeman! This is the most comprehensive and forth comming attempt to give answers to those of us that are not Masons I have ever seen. Most appreciated.

Originally posted by lazy1981
Great work Axeman! This is the most comprehensive and forth comming attempt to give answers to those of us that are not Masons I have ever seen. Most appreciated.

Actually, there's quite a lot in the archives, although you might need a spare few days to get through it all

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by lazy1981
Great work Axeman! This is the most comprehensive and forth comming attempt to give answers to those of us that are not Masons I have ever seen. Most appreciated.

Actually, there's quite a lot in the archives, although you might need a spare few days to get through it all

What archives? I've neever seen them. Let me know where to look, I'm facinated with Masonic history and lore.

Originally posted by lazy1981
What archives? I've neever seen them. Let me know where to look, I'm facinated with Masonic history and lore.

Hit the Search button on the main page and just type in whatever you are looking for. Phrases such as "Albert Pike Lucifer" and "masonic secrets" will yield plenty of reading material. Almost everything you can imagine about freemasonry has already been discussed here at ATS.

If you want some off-site links feel free to u2u me.