Why the big fuss over secrecy?

Originally posted by Colloneh7


Admit it. Secret societies are a breeding ground for evil and REAL conspiracies to take place. Listen to the JFK speech above (again?) if you need to understand.

JFK supported Masonry. When an international delegation of Scottish Rite Masons visited the Supreme Council's headquarters in Washington, D.C., JFK invited them to the White House, met with them, and spoke of his admiration for Masonic charities.

JFK was himself also a member of a "secret society" very similar to Masonry called Knights of Columbus.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
JFK supported Masonry. When an international delegation of Scottish Rite Masons visited the Supreme Council's headquarters in Washington, D.C., JFK invited them to the White House, met with them, and spoke of his admiration for Masonic charities.

JFK was himself also a member of a "secret society" very similar to Masonry called Knights of Columbus.

I am familiar with both organisation, and I still stand by what I say. Truth and goodness does not lurk in the shadows, and no matter what JFK did before or after the speech he gave does not take away from the message.

Care to argue JFK's message? Tell me why secret societies are A-OK. Tell me how freemasonry is benevolent and caring.

Then explain to me the history of freemasonry's political opposition (especially in England) and explain to me how the secret organisation was benevolent and caring to William Morgan.

Originally posted by Colloneh7

Care to argue JFK's message?

He was talking about the U.S.S.R. you know that little thing called the cold war? That speech was shortly after the bay of Pigs, one of the reasons it was a disaster was the US press told about it before it happened and the U.S.S.R. informed Cuba.

JFK is asking the press to keep quite on any government secrets, while at the same time saying that the US government having secrets is not the same as the U.S.S.R. controlled it's secrets via the state press.

Speaking of secrets, JFK was a big fan of them. There was organized attempts at keeping... his martial infidelity secret, his physical infirmity secret, and (what was probably habitual) narcotics use secret. Hell, he also tried to keep his love of golf a secret!

Yes JFK abhorred Secrets..

Originally posted by Colloneh7
Then explain to me the history of freemasonry's political opposition (especially in England)

I have listed for you below all the cases where freemasonry has interfered in English politics, or has demonstrated a political opinion:




























Please let me know if I've missed any out.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by Colloneh7

Care to argue JFK's message?

He was talking about the U.S.S.R. you know that little thing called the cold war? That speech was shortly after the bay of Pigs, one of the reasons it was a disaster was the US press told about it before it happened and the U.S.S.R. informed Cuba.

JFK is asking the press to keep quite on any government secrets, while at the same time saying that the US government having secrets is not the same as the U.S.S.R. controlled it's secrets via the state press.

Speaking of secrets, JFK was a big fan of them. There was organized attempts at keeping... his martial infidelity secret, his physical infirmity secret, and (what was probably habitual) narcotics use secret. Hell, he also tried to keep his love of golf a secret!

Yes JFK abhorred Secrets..

What? Where do you get that idea? Are you kidding? Have you heard the entire speech? Did you pay attention? What makes you think this speech had anything to do with the USSR?

Can't debate the message, so you change the message, huh? I'm not stupid.

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by Colloneh7
Then explain to me the history of freemasonry's political opposition (especially in England)

I have listed for you below all the cases where freemasonry has interfered in English politics, or has demonstrated a political opinion:

Please let me know if I've missed any out.

Well, I wonder what this is about...

en.wikipedia.org...-Masonry_.281990s-current.29

Read - 2.2 British Political Anti-Masonry (1990s-current)

[edit on 29-7-2007 by Colloneh7]

[edit on 29-7-2007 by Colloneh7]

Originally posted by Colloneh7
Not much more to say? Are you kidding?

A secret organisation that consists of people in high places is a huge problem.

1. Why would Freemasonry, something which is NOT boring, need to use secrecy as a recruiting tactic?

2. Why the need to avoid being attacked? Is it possible that the secrets would cause people within the public to become angry because of wrong-doing? Truth and goodness do NOT lurk in shadows. Come out, come out, wherever you are.

3. What "knowledge" needs to be protected, and how is that a marketting scheme?

Admit it. Secret societies are a breeding ground for evil and REAL conspiracies to take place. Listen to the JFK speech above (again?) if you need to understand.

1. Perhaps freemasonry is interesting by itself without the secrecy element, but adding secrecy makes it more intriguing to members and prospective members.

2. Masons do not need to keep secrets in order to protect themselves from any serious criticism regarding their allegedly profound secret philosophies or their alleged conspiracies. They might need to keep secrets because their practices may look silly. Dressing up like a pirate is good if you are 5, but not if you are 50.

3. If all of masonry's secrets were easily accessible, it would not bode well for the mason's business model. Masonry's success depends on continually recruiting new dues paying members. If any person off the street can walk into a lodge and witness all the rituals, those people would not feel the need to invest the money, time, and energy into joining masonic lodges so they can be let in on all or at least some of the secrets. This in turn would lead to less members in lodges.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint

1. Perhaps freemasonry is interesting by itself without the secrecy element, but adding secrecy makes it more intriguing to members and prospective members.

2. Masons do not need to keep secrets in order to protect themselves from any serious criticism regarding their allegedly profound secret philosophies or their alleged conspiracies. They might need to keep secrets because their practices may look silly. Dressing up like a pirate is good if you are 5, but not if you are 50.

3. If all of masonry's secrets were easily accessible, it would not bode well for the mason's business model. Masonry's success depends on continually recruiting new dues paying members. If any person off the street can walk into a lodge and witness all the rituals, those people would not feel the need to invest the money, time, and energy into joining masonic lodges so they can be let in on all or at least some of the secrets. This in turn would lead to less members in lodges.

1. Perhaps that is the stupidest excuse for secrecy that I've ever heard.

2. Are you seriously suggesting that the reason for the secrecy within freemasonry is because they dress up like pirates? Really? Tell me more, lol.

3. You are right that if secrets were revealed that it would not bode well for the masonic business model. That's the whole point. You are just making excuses.

[edit on 29-7-2007 by Colloneh7]

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint

1. Perhaps freemasonry is interesting by itself without the secrecy element, but adding secrecy makes it more intriguing to members and prospective members.

2. Masons do not need to keep secrets in order to protect themselves from any serious criticism regarding their allegedly profound secret philosophies or their alleged conspiracies. They might need to keep secrets because their practices may look silly. Dressing up like a pirate is good if you are 5, but not if you are 50.

3. If all of masonry's secrets were easily accessible, it would not bode well for the mason's business model. Masonry's success depends on continually recruiting new dues paying members. If any person off the street can walk into a lodge and witness all the rituals, those people would not feel the need to invest the money, time, and energy into joining masonic lodges so they can be let in on all or at least some of the secrets. This in turn would lead to less members in lodges.

Business model,lmao its 65 dollars a year here,that is a little over 5 dollars a month,most of you spend more than that on a pack of cigarettes, a movie,or a few beers,yeah what a giant financial pyramid scheme.

[edit on 29-7-2007 by brotherforchrist]

Freemasonry is a cult. Like all cults it has its traditions, hierarchies, secret meetings, beliefs. It all depends on what you think of cults. People make fun of the raliens and jonestown. I understand masonry is no Jonestown because they all killed themselves as well as the heaven's gate cult but I think you could compare it to Scientology in some ways. There are elements of Freemasonry that are unique and appealing for some but make no bones about it, it is a cult.

The upper echelons of the club are linked to nwo and support the same vision of world government, eugenics but the run of the mill mason just does hand shakes and pals around with the boys.

To actually answer the question i think the secrecy is to make the peon low members feel elite, shrouded in mystery and the upper tier need it to discusses global agendas without a spotlight.

Originally posted by Colloneh7
Well, I wonder what this is about...

en.wikipedia.org...-Masonry_.281990s-current.29

Read - 2.2 British Political Anti-Masonry (1990s-current)

There is quite a difference between anti-political masonry and political anti-masonry, and you are getting the two mixed up. The next section below the one you highlighted is about the persecution of freemasonry by totalitarian states, and although we can't classify this Labour government as totalitarian just yet its use of hype and scapegoating is legendary. By whipping up anti-masonic sentiment somehow Labour politicians seem to think that the masons will get blamed for societal problems when the real culprits are somewhat closer to home.

What the Wiki article doesn't show is that much of the anti-masonic legislation has been struck down by the European Court of Human Rights as discriminatory and illegal.

There is nothing in freemasonry which is political. The constitution of the society bans discussion of politics in its meetings and has a long history of non-interference in the affairs of national government.

You are being fed a line, my friend, and you are swallowing it hook, line and sinker. Serious CTs are well aware that masonic conspiracies are a red herring. The real question is - "Is the discreditation of freemasonry orchestrated, and if so, by whom?"

Originally posted by Colloneh7


1. Why would Freemasonry, something which is NOT boring, need to use secrecy as a recruiting tactic?

2. Why the need to avoid being attacked? Is it possible that the secrets would cause people within the public to become angry because of wrong-doing? Truth and goodness do NOT lurk in shadows. Come out, come out, wherever you are.

3. What "knowledge" needs to be protected, and how is that a marketting scheme?

Admit it. Secret societies are a breeding ground for evil and REAL conspiracies to take place. Listen to the JFK speech above (again?) if you need to understand.

1. How would you know its not utterly boring, just a bunch of wanna-be fat, grey-haired performing rituals devoid of meaning and drinking beer afterwards? And whats more: How do you happen to know more about it than members themselves?

2. So only evil lurks in the shadows? Is that why we are bombarded with bad and evil news on a daily basis everywhere we go? As far as I know underground movements needed to stay underground or else they would be ripped apart by the fearful and hostile masses. Any semi-intelligent human being had to go undercover in the times of the catholic inquisition, had to go undercover in the times of nazi germany, communist russia...and today we have to go undercover to avoid being attacked by the imbecile consume-pop-culture-paris-hilton-tv-generation.

3. Any company can tell you it protects its knowledge so that it can profit from that knowledge. If it is not protected it becomes profane, meaning that anyone can sell it, water it down, distort it, overprice it, etc.

in other words, your parents kept the Christmas presents secret to heighten the drama and excitement and VALUE and so that you would learn some patience rather than getting your greedy hands on it, ripping it open and then having it loose value only after a few days.

Likewise, imagine what damage the masses greedy, desperate hands would do with special knowledge. Theyd tear it apart in no time.

Originally posted by Colloneh7
1. Why would Freemasonry, something which is NOT boring, need to use secrecy as a recruiting tactic?

Obviously this person has never endured a stated meeting.

*ZZZzzz... ZZZzzz... ZZZzzz...* *snorts* *blink, blink* "What? Oh, yeah... yes, pay the bills already..." *ZZZzzz... ZZZzzz...*

2. Why the need to avoid being attacked? Is it possible that the secrets would cause people within the public to become angry because of wrong-doing? Truth and goodness do NOT lurk in shadows. Come out, come out, wherever you are.

We are out. Our buildings are clearly marked and there is usually a sign at the city limits that announces the presence of a lodge in the town and what night they meet. You might find us serving up hot dogs at town square festivals, or with an expo booth at the fair (I know there's always one at the famous Ft. Worth Stockshow - I've helped man it), or perhaps the many specialized childrens hospitals, Or maybe even right next door... Bwahahahahahaaaaaaa... But seriously, we usually will have some sort of sticker or badge on our cars, or pins on our collars or lapels proclaiming our membership. So far as the secrets are concerned - they are guarded much less vigilantly as you might think, given your obvious world-view. All a man has to do is ask for membership and be found to have a decent reputation. That's it, honestly. Besides that, what on Earth would we be doing on this website slinging links and giving references to books to people who want to know more if we are hiding something? Come on dude, get the net.

3. What "knowledge" needs to be protected, and how is that a marketting scheme?

Grips and passwords, and I don't know. I would not call it marketing scheme, I know that. The reason those things are kept private is because they are a priveledge of membership, period. Why would we tell a whole bunch of people how to identify themselves as Masons if they are not Masons? That's retarded. You don't just get to call yourself "So-and-so, PhD" unless you earn that right. Same concept. The rest is available to anyone who is interested enough to DILIGENTLY (you have to really look) search for it in books and on the web, without joining. The trouble there is that alot of people believe the first thing they read about a subject, and sadly if you do a search on Freemasonry most of what you get is fire and brimstone. But people can pay google to have their sites listed in the top hits for any given keyword, so there you have it. I have full confidence that any intelligent rational person who objectively weighs the information available about Masonry - even solely on the internet - will come out of it laughing at the sheer stupidity of some of the anti-Masonic propaganda that floods the internet. You just have to be willing to look at it objectively, and with no preconceptions.

If you are, great; we'll be happy to help. If you aren't, I really don't care; it's your loss.

Admit it. Secret societies are a breeding ground for evil and REAL conspiracies to take place. Listen to the JFK speech above (again?) if you need to understand.

I don't need to, I am familiar with it.

I will concede that real conspiracies take place in secret, obviously, but I maintain that it has nothing to do with Masonry. What really cracks me up is that if the Masons of the world were given the opportunity to control the government it would in all probability be exactly as the founding fathers intended the USA to be, no question in my mind. It certainly would NOT be the tyrannical pictures all these NWO/Illuminati conspiracy theorists paint. And that's assuming that all the Masons were united on such things, which I can assure you is not the case. It doesn't take a genius to see that, at least not from where I'm sitting.

Originally posted by Beefcake
Freemasonry is a cult. Like all cults it has its traditions, hierarchies, secret meetings, beliefs. It all depends on what you think of cults. People make fun of the raliens and jonestown. I understand masonry is no Jonestown because they all killed themselves as well as the heaven's gate cult but I think you could compare it to Scientology in some ways. There are elements of Freemasonry that are unique and appealing for some but make no bones about it, it is a cult.

The upper echelons of the club are linked to nwo and support the same vision of world government, eugenics but the run of the mill mason just does hand shakes and pals around with the boys.

To actually answer the question i think the secrecy is to make the peon low members feel elite, shrouded in mystery and the upper tier need it to discusses global agendas without a spotlight.

I take offense to being compared to a scientologist, if freemasonry were like scientology, any website that opposed it would be financially bankrupt and individual dissenters would be tracked down and harassed,litigated against etc.If you live in the USA you owe your freedoms to Freemasonry.Hands down.Did it ever occur to you that freemasonry is secretive exactly because of crap like this? People do not understand it, so they malign it and make up wild speculations that are not grounded in proof.Sort of a modern day witch hunt in my opinion.For freemasonry to be a cult it would require a set of religious beliefs and teachings.It has none.

Freemasonry has equal reverence for any religion that man uses to improve himself and serve god to the best of his ability.I am sorry if you can not realize that there are ethically and morally good people in every religion of every creed that are trying to better society, and that maybe those people would like to join together to better their local communities, and in turn make the world a better place.I am sorry that you can not see the wonder of men of all beliefs putting aside their differences, and respecting one anothers rights to believe and worship as they please and better humanity.

Originally posted by The Axeman

Obviously this person has never endured a stated meeting.

*ZZZzzz... ZZZzzz... ZZZzzz...* *snorts* *blink, blink* "What? Oh, yeah... yes, pay the bills already..." *ZZZzzz... ZZZzzz...*

Yes, this truth is much more horrifying than the satanic-conspiracy-theories.

Originally posted by Colloneh7

Truth and goodness does not lurk in the shadows,

Neither does Freemasonry.

and no matter what JFK did before or after the speech he gave does not take away from the message.

JFK's message did not concern Freemasonry and other fraternal organizations.

Care to argue JFK's message? Tell me why secret societies are A-OK.

First, tell me why you believe that Freemasonry is a "secret society". Unless I know this, answering your question is impossible. NOTE: Masons, and most non-Masons, do not consider Freemasonry a "secret society".

Tell me how freemasonry is benevolent and caring.

That's easy:

Shriners Childrens Hospitals

Scottish Rite Foundation

Knight Templar Eye Foundation

Masonic Charities

Originally posted by Colloneh7
[
1. Perhaps that is the stupidest excuse for secrecy that I've ever heard.

2. Are you seriously suggesting that the reason for the secrecy within freemasonry is because they dress up like pirates? Really? Tell me more, lol.

3. You are right that if secrets were revealed that it would not bode well for the masonic business model. That's the whole point. You are just making excuses.

[edit on 29-7-2007 by Colloneh7]

1. With regards to masonry's secrecy being a "stupid" or absurd sounding marketing ploy, their are millions of absurd and stupid marketing ploys out there, many of which are successful. You might not buy into masonry because of its secrecy, but hundreds of people have.

2. I am not saying the only reason masons keep their act secret is because they dress up like silly little pirates, but rather a small factor. If the whole world could see them dress up in their unusual outfits, use their unusual lingo, and carry out their bizarre rituals, they could be targets of ridicule.

3. We disagree with what the masons business model is. You probably see their business model as world domination. I just see them as a club that needs to continually recruit and keep new members to pay the bills. One of the marketing hooks they use to keep and recruit new members is secrecy. Part of the appeal of joining masonry, is seeing what is behind the veil. Part of the appeal of keeping active in masonry is getting to see what lies behind the the succesive veils of the different degrees. Without secrecy, people would not join to see what was behind the initial veil and people would not stick around to see what was behind the next veil.

Also, once a member has seen what was behind the veil, it makes him feel special and gives him a sense of belonging. These feelings help keep members feeling postive about masonry, which in turn makes them more likely to stick with the organization for a long time, pay dues, and help recruit new members.

You guys gleefully high-fived yourselves right past my insertion of William Morgan twice.

And the line about freemasonry not involved in politics is laughable. (see Secret Architecture of Washington, DC or Secret Mysteries of America's Beginnings - THE LINKS ARE ABOVE)

Freemasons were also involved in the French Revolution.

I don't know from what point you are trying to argue to say that freemasonry isn't involved in politics.

There is a thread in this section which discusses Freemasons and Politics.

It is useless for me to debate with people who are obviously bent on asserting their misinformed viewpoint onto me, whilst completely ignoring any point that I raise and insert into the debate. Have a nice day.