It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Thousand
Nowhere in the current Big Bang model does it say matter and energy arose from nothing. It's a common misconception and I have no idea why. The pre-expansion universe had all of the matter and energy that today's universe has, only compressed into an incomprehensibly small object of near infinite mass. Our current understanding of physics is insufficient to describe this scenario as the laws we know did not exist back then, and we have not yet even reconciled quantum physics with gravity let alone figured out the workings of the (Grand) Unified Force, which was what we speculate presided over the early universe just as the four fundamental forces rule our universe today.
Originally posted by melatonin
What do you think it is, Amenti? What actually is information?
[edit on 20-7-2007 by melatonin]
Originally posted by Amenti
“by definition Natural selection could not have existed before the existence of the first living cell. For it can only act upon organisms capable of reproducing themselves, cells equipped with DNA that pass on their genetic changes to future generations.”
Originally posted by melatonin
So what is the meaning of gene A producing protein B?
Originally posted by Karilla
You really should have a look at the links on Complexity Theory that I posted earlier. There are people who are making a good fist of explaining just that, and getting computer programs to evolve on their own.
I think that they will choose the only logical alternative that doesn’t involve God. I.E. that extraterrestrials seeded DNA in the primordial sea or even that they just genetically modified man
Originally posted by BlaznRob
I think that they will choose the only logical alternative that doesn’t involve God. I.E. that extraterrestrials seeded DNA in the primordial sea or even that they just genetically modified man
Dunno about this scenario, because it still leaves the question of where did the *first* life originate. What I'm saying is that, even were this to be true, all of the same "problems" exist for the alien race now, instead of ours.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Amenti, you're not posting any real problems with EVOLUTION, you're posting on problems as to what LED UP TO evolution. evolution deals with what happened once life was there, nothing before.
you're really inquiring to chemical abiogenesis, something that is a relatively untouched field.
Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Here's a great paper on abiogenesis that also talks about how the creationist apologists' math is wrong.
Originally posted by melatonin
Amenti, you still haven't provided a useful definition of 'information'. You keep using it but I still wonder what exactly you mean by it.
Originally posted by Amenti
Originally posted by melatonin
What do you think it is, Amenti? What actually is information?
[edit on 20-7-2007 by melatonin]
“Information as a concept bears a diversity of meanings, from everyday usage to technical settings. Generally speaking, the concept of information is closely related to notions of constraint, communication, control, data, form, instruction, knowledge, meaning, mental stimulus, pattern, perception, and representation.”
en.wikipedia.org...
Originally posted by melatonin
Well, it's not really a useful scientific definition.
It just sort of says - it can be a number of things, depending.
I read one discussion the other day where all matter was determined as being a form of information. I'm just wondering what sort of definition you are working by.
I was trying to figure it out earlier, by asking which contains most information?
Part 1: Language, Information, and the Origin of DNA (Read Transcript)
Most arguments about evolution and intelligent design offer only anecdotal evidence and are inherently incapable of actually proving anything. We must get better evidence in order to get to the bottom of this! Fortunately, the science of modern communications easily provides us with the tools we need to get answers. Although the details are complex, the concepts are easily grasped by anyone with a high school education.
Patterns occur naturally - no help required from a 'designer'. Many patterns occur in nature without the help of a designer – snowflakes, tornados, hurricanes, sand dunes, stalactites, rivers and ocean waves. These patterns are the natural result of what scientists categorize as chaos and fractals. These things are well-understood and we experience them every day.
Codes, however, do not occur without a designer. Examples of symbolic codes include music, blueprints, languages like English and Chinese, computer programs, and yes, DNA. The essential distinction is the difference between a pattern and a code. Chaos can produce patterns, but it has never been shown to produce codes or symbols. Codes and symbols create information, which is not a property of matter and energy alone. Information itself is a separate entity on par with matter and energy.
Proof that DNA was designed by a mind: (1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism. (2) All codes we know the origin of are created by a conscious mind. (3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind, and language and information are proof of the existence of a Superintelligence.
We can explore five possible conclusions:
1) Humans designed DNA
2) Aliens designed DNA
3) DNA occurred randomly and spontaneously
4) There must be some undiscovered law of physics that creates information
5) DNA was Designed by a Superintelligence, i.e. God.
(1) requires time travel or infinite generations of humans. (2) could well be true but only pushes the question back in time. (3) may be a remote possibility, but it's not a scientific explanation in that it doesn't refer to a systematic, repeatable process. It's nothing more than an appeal to luck. (4) could be true but no one can form a testable hypothesis until someone observes a naturally occurring code. So the only systematic explanation that remains is (5) a theological one.
To the extent that scientific reasoning can prove anything, DNA is proof of a designer.
www.cosmicfingerprints.com...
[edit on 23-7-2007 by Amenti]
Regular Article
Is DNA a Language?
Anastasios A. Tsonisa, James B. Elsnerb and Panagiotis A. Tsonisc
a Department of Geosciences, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Milwaukee, WI 53201-413, U.S.A.
b Department of Meteorology, Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL 32306-3034, U.S.A.
c Department of Biology, The University of Dayton, Dayton, OH 45469, U.S.A.
Received 10 April 1996; accepted 12 August 1996. ; Available online 15 April 2002.
Abstract
DNA sequences usually involve local construction rules that affect different scales. As such their “dictionary” may not follow Zipf's law (a power law) which is followed in every natural language. Indeed, analysis of many DNA sequences suggests that no linguistics connections to DNA exist and that even though it has structure DNA in not a language. Computer simulations and a biological approach to this problem further support these results.
3) DNA occurred randomly and spontaneously
Originally posted by melatonin
I can agree that DNA contains information, in the same way a tree ring contains information, or a rock, a star etc
Originally posted by melatonin
In essence, his argument is a non-sequitor. As (i) DNA is not a true code or language; (ii) arguably,
Francis Crick received the Nobel prize for discovering DNA. The following is from the first paragraph of Francis Crick's Nobel lecture on October 11, 1962. Note his use of the word "code" and "information," emphasis mine:
"Part of the work covered by the Nobel citation, that on the structure and replication of DNA, has been described by Wilkins in his Nobel Lecture this year... I shall discuss here the present state of a related problem in information transfer in living material - that of the genetic CODE - which has long interested me, and on which my colleagues and I, among many others, have recently been doing some experimental work..."
The following quotes are from atheist Richard Dawkins' book The Blind Watchmaker:
"Every single one of more than a trillion cells in the body contains about a thousand times as much precisely-coded digital information as my entire computer.
"Each nucleus, as we shall see in Chapter 5, contains a digitally coded database larger, in information content, than all 30 volumes of the Encyclopaedia Britannica put together. And this figure is for each cell, not all the cells of a body put together."
Originally posted by melatonin
language/code can occur naturally (bee dance etc)
No naturally occuring molcule possesses the properties of information. Nature does not produce any kind of code, encoding/decoding mechanism or symbolic relationships at all; everything in nature represents only itself.
DNA, on the other hand, represents a complete plan for a living organism. DNA is an encoding / decoding mechanism that contains code, or language, representing the organism.
Originally posted by Amenti
Absolutely not, tree rings are produced by a seasonal growing cycle. Would you have us believe that this occurs SO THAT when humans cut them in half they can know how old they are?
"Every single one of more than a trillion cells in the body contains about a thousand times as much precisely-coded digital information as my entire computer.
bees are intelligent and therefore can produce code.
No naturally occuring molcule possesses the properties of information. Nature does not produce any kind of code, encoding/decoding mechanism or symbolic relationships at all; everything in nature represents only itself.
DNA, on the other hand, represents a complete plan for a living organism. DNA is an encoding / decoding mechanism that contains code, or language, representing the organism.
www.cosmicfingerprints.com...