Cheney pushes Bush to act on Iran

Originally posted by marg6043
The control of the middle eastern nations that produces oil or let said the last reserves of oil in the world.

Is not for us American needs, let me remind you that WE also produce oil and still pay higher prices than other countries also producing oil.

This about the needs of global energies and be able to control who and how much they get and to control the markerts and growing economies like China, India and Asia, they do not produce oil.

This about power, control and greed.

We still in the US do not have enough refineries to be able to increased our domestic production and is not enough refineries to take the high demands of oil coming from Iraq or Iran.

IF any of you think that this is for us you are mistaken.

Marg, i knew if we kept at it we would agree on something. LOL You are correct and I have stated it over and over that the goal here is to control the oil supply. The US does produce oil but most of it goes to JAPAN. but with the rising damand of China , India and other developing countries yes the US is in panic mode IMO. Big oil is worried thier profits will decrease and yes this is why Geroge "oil whore" Bush is pushing the agenda. Terrorism is real but it also gives the excuse to start the oil land grab. Id be willing to bet that Russia and China will get into the mix real soon.

Take care

geemony,

I don't know how old you are, but I remember The 73 oil crisis and what happen after that.

If you look back you will see that everything that goes in the middle east is all about Israel and US support for that nation.

I wonder what will happen if another oil crisis will take hold again if Israel is to attack Iran and we to support them.

6 dollars at the pomp in the seventies will look like pennies compare to what we will be forced to pay today.

[edit on 18-7-2007 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Amberite
Are you for real? Have you ever BEEN to Israel? Have you ever talked to an Israeli? How you can say Israel is a terrorist state is appalling. Israel has never started a war without being provoked, and in fact most of their military confrontations deal with them being attacked (often times by 2, 3, even 4 countries) and their subsequent self-defense.

No, and i have no intention of ever visiting such a barbaric and backwards nationalistic nation, where conscription is still needed to bolster their forces, because the majority of people would not fight if they had the choice!

Israel has started every conflict, JUST BY EXISTING. It really is that simple. I don't care about your opinion, i care about the facts. Israel was created by the "world police" (UN), on land that was already occupied, due to a World War which created the "holocaust" (which in itself is debateble), which was funded by International Banking interests..

I don't care about history of the land, i don't care about politics from the holocaust, you just don't go around partitioning land, and giving it to a group of people who have NO intention of creating a peaceful nation. The Zionists are merely a pawn in the elites game, and sadly people still feel sorry for Israel, and not its citizens, who are stuck in the middle, and who will probably be sacrificed AGAIN in the near future.

Israel was put where it was for one reason.. and when another holocaust happens, and everyone is wandering why it happened, i'll be sitting here waiting for you to come back and say that you wish Israel had never existed in the first place so that "none of this could have happened".

Whilst Irans internal politics is something i don't agree with anyway, Israels are really no better, if not worse than Irans.

Jews don't need a home nation. It is such a ridiculous concept, especially when you put it in a place where it is most certainly going to get annihilated at some point!! Jews are welcome in any nation.. and more importantly, the very concept of a homeland goes AGAINST the Jewish scriptures.

Zionism is a nationalistic, atheist movement, which benefits no one but the elite. Open you eyes and realise that Israel is being pushed into a corner with Iran, at the same time, and the only outcome is death, unless people recognise this, stand up, and stop it from happening!

Save Humanity. End Zionism!

... I'm just too sick at the thought of another war based on lies to say much of anything...

My stomach is seriously churning.



Give me the time, the place. I'll be there to protest along side you, my brothers.

I know I'm on the wrong side of the border, but this affects fellow Canadians as much as our American friends.

Bush cannot be likened to Hitler... he is far worse. He has to be stopped.

I know I'm on the wrong side of the border, but this affects fellow Canadians as much as our American friends.

You're right. What is worse, it's that our soldiers in Afghanistan will be killed when Iran start up their asymetrical response. Then this bilderberger Harper will call for more troops... which will only worsen our situation there, our international reputation and hype the elite-wanted war of civilisations BS, also called WW3.

Originally posted by marg6043
geemony,

I don't know how old you are, but I remember The 73 oil crisis and what happen after that.

If you look back you will see that everything that goes in the middle east is all about Israel and US support for that nation.

I wonder what will happen if another oil crisis will take hold again if Israel is to attack Iran and we to support them.

6 dollars at the pomp in the seventies will look like pennies compare to what we will be forced to pay today.

[edit on 18-7-2007 by marg6043]

Well i was 8 then and do remember the long lines but didnt care. At 8 all i cared about was play time and Ice cream. LOL

I do understand that Isreal and the US whether we agree or disagree are pretty much joined at the hip. I dont like the US being so entrenched in the middle east, but thats where the oil is for the most part. its sad that they (Big oil) wont allow better energy alternatives to be mass produced. And since this is the way of the world right now who ever has the oil if not a freind will be in the way. I just hope that someone will step up who can make a difference and figure out a better way before the bombs start to fall. Becasue it is very possible that oil will destroy the human race or should I say greed will destroy us all.

Originally posted by geemony
I just hope that someone will step up who can make a difference and figure out a better way before the bombs start to fall. Because it is very possible that oil will destroy the human race or should I say greed will destroy us all.

Amen to that, my friend, you are the age of my youngest sister.

I wonder what the elite has planned for such an evet, perhaps a moon base to stay or underground luxurious facilities.

While the rest of poor us keep fighting their wars for profits.

Originally posted by johnsky

Bush cannot be likened to Hitler... he is far worse. He has to be stopped.

WOW Comparing Bush to Hitler. Give me a freakin break here my Canadian friend. Bush is guilty of being a greedy basterd and cowing to his Big oil friends but worse than Hitler? Come on buddy if ever there was a worse comparison this is it.

Dont make any judgements about Bush until you see how the next president works his magic. not to long to wait for the next puppet to come to power.

shrunkensimon,

Wow, anti-semitic much? That is probably one of the most ignorant, racist rants I've seen in a long time. Go read some history. Israel wasn't created out of thin air simply because the UN decided to make a country. There was a LOT of reasoning for the decision. Oh, and lets not forget that Israel has been a country, IN THAT SPOT, for over 5000 years. I guess you forgot about that tiny little detail, eh?

Oh, and when Israel has gotten invaded and occupied countless times throughout history, you didn't see the Israelis blowing themselves up to make a point.

Questioning Israeli patriotism was by far your biggest mistake, and the biggest indication of your ignorance and hate. Again, if you had ever actually known an Israeli, you would know they are one of the most fiercely patriotic people in the world. They BELIEVE in their country and believe that if they don't protect Israel, noone else will. American "patriotism" is nothing in comparison. You see it as forced conscription. In reality, in Israel, almost everyone coming out of high school is very eager to get into the army and show his devotion to the country. And the fact is, after their 2-3 years of service is done, a very large number of Israelis attempt to reenter the army at any sign of conflict, simply to make sure they are there to protect the country.

Originally posted by geemony

Dont make any judgements about Bush until you see how the next president works his magic. not to long to wait for the next puppet to come to power.

Actually people tend to forget that Hitler was well liked by its people, while bush is actually hated for his stand on war in the middle east.

Beside the middle east agenda is want that has been in the planning for many years regardless of who is the president.

I agree that the next puppet will eventually support the middle east plans or else, American is run by corporations, profiteers of war and anybody that has enough money to influence our for the people elected congress.

No, and i have no intention of ever visiting such a barbaric and backwards nationalistic nation, where conscription is still needed to bolster their forces, because the majority of people would not fight if they had the choice!

Israel has started every conflict, JUST BY EXISTING. It really is that simple. I don't care about your opinion, i care about the facts. Israel was created by the "world police" (UN), on land that was already occupied, due to a World War which created the "holocaust" (which in itself is debateble), which was funded by International Banking interests..

I don't care about history of the land, i don't care about politics from the holocaust, you just don't go around partitioning land, and giving it to a group of people who have NO intention of creating a peaceful nation. The Zionists are merely a pawn in the elites game, and sadly people still feel sorry for Israel, and not its citizens, who are stuck in the middle, and who will probably be sacrificed AGAIN in the near future.

Israel was put where it was for one reason.. and when another holocaust happens, and everyone is wandering why it happened, i'll be sitting here waiting for you to come back and say that you wish Israel had never existed in the first place so that "none of this could have happened".

Whilst Irans internal politics is something i don't agree with anyway, Israels are really no better, if not worse than Irans.

Jews don't need a home nation. It is such a ridiculous concept, especially when you put it in a place where it is most certainly going to get annihilated at some point!! Jews are welcome in any nation.. and more importantly, the very concept of a homeland goes AGAINST the Jewish scriptures.

Zionism is a nationalistic, atheist movement, which benefits no one but the elite. Open you eyes and realise that Israel is being pushed into a corner with Iran, at the same time, and the only outcome is death, unless people recognise this, stand up, and stop it from happening!

Save Humanity. End Zionism!

I am a Jew, and I happen to agree with most everything you said, except for the statement that the holocaust was debatable. No it wasn't, and I know people who were in the camps and have tatooed numbers on their arms to prove it. For you to even suggest such a ludicrous idea is to be ignorant to what really happened during that period in history. Brush up on your research.

Zionism is real, and it is a very dangerous form of fundamentalism. All you need to do is dig deep into the 9/11 attacks and you will see that the U.S. conspired with the zionists to carry out the attacks. Do you all forget the 5 dancing Israelis found right after the towers fell cheering and high-fiving eachother? Zionists have had major roles to play in historical events dating back to World War 1. The Israeli citizens stuck in the middle of it are not the ones who have bad intentions. Jews have been persecuted throughout history and just want to live in peace. But the zionists use that excuse to further their agenda which is sickening. The zionists aren't much better than the Nazis were.

And please don't even dare say I'm anti-semetic because I'm Jewish. I just do my research before believing things that either are or aren't true.

[edit on 7/18/2007 by pjslug]

Originally posted by Amberite
Wow, anti-semitic much? That is probably one of the most ignorant, racist rants I've seen in a long time. Go read some history. Israel wasn't created out of thin air simply because the UN decided to make a country. There was a LOT of reasoning for the decision. Oh, and lets not forget that Israel has been a country, IN THAT SPOT, for over 5000 years. I guess you forgot about that tiny little detail, eh?

No, not really, just that i've obviously touched a nerve with you, just like alot of people who blindly stand up for the worlds no.1 terrorist state. As i said, i don't care about your opinion on Israels history, because its irrelevant. You don't just enforce something which is not wanted. If they had actually conquered the land, fair enough, but just being granted permission and being backed up by the "world police" is not conquering. Its stealing and claiming it as your own.

Originally posted by Amberite
Questioning Israeli patriotism was by far your biggest mistake, and the biggest indication of your ignorance and hate. Again, if you had ever actually known an Israeli..

I have met a few Israelis in my time. Some nice, some not so nice. Some who were willing to fight, some who rejected the idea out of moral grounds, like any sane thinking person should. Without conscription, and donations from the USA, Israel would be nothing. It needs war to survive, and it leechs off another nation that needs war to survive.. ironic, yet truely pathetic.

Everyone can see that Israels existence has not, and never will work, simply because the people who guide Israel do not have Jewish peoples best interests at heart. They only care about their own pockets, and not Israel or its citizens. They turn a blind eye to the truth for their own gain.

This is a perfect example of what Ariel Sharon was talking about, "Jewish education", "I am not a religious Jew, but i am Jew, for me to be the Jew is the most important thing". The brainwashing of youth, making them walking talking hypocritic ignorant drones, completely oblivious to the simple truth beyond the borders of "Israel", the fact that Israel itself goes against Judaism itself.

WARNING: Video contains some foul language.

video.google.co.uk...

Originally posted by pjslug
I am a Jew, and I happen to agree with most everything you said, except for the statement that the holocaust was debatable. No it wasn't, and I know people who were in the camps and have tatooed numbers on their arms to prove it. For you to even suggest such a ludicrous idea is to be ignorant to what really happened during that period in history. Brush up on your research.

Yes it is debatable. He who controls history..

Considering the dark side of forgotten history about WW2, such as the money trail, Churchill and his involvement, IBM helping Hitler with his camps etc, do you really find it so hard to believe that the figures of those actually killed in camps was exaggerated? There is more than enough grounds to question what we have been told!

To claim im ignorant makes you arrogrant. How can you possibly state you know history any better than i do, unless you were there and saw the truth for yourself. You have what i have, books, TV, internet, and word of mouth of some remaining people.. and of course, the state.

The fact the "the holocaust" refers to just the one in Nazi Germany shows the truth, aswell as the laws prohibiting people from questioning any of the history, in some countries, should be a red flag. There are far worse attrocities that have happened in our history, many worse holocausts, but yet we focus on this one..

Anyway...

Attacking Iran is foolish. Israel will die, the Middle East will errupt, and general terrorism and chaos will probably spread around the world. A problem will have been created out of nothing, carefully orchastrated over many decades, and reinforced by the staged spectacle of 9/11.

And all the while, the Jewish people have been used as the scapegoat time and time again, culminating in the destruction of many Jewish people, and the homeland, formerly known as Israel.. "Isis-Ra-El"..

Originally posted by geemony
WOW Comparing Bush to Hitler. Give me a freakin break here my Canadian friend. Bush is guilty of being a greedy basterd and cowing to his Big oil friends but worse than Hitler? Come on buddy if ever there was a worse comparison this is it.

I would tend to disagree with this opinion. I'm born-American from American-born parents, so I see what the Government's been pushing for. I suggest you do some more reading about Hitlers' rise to power before you so easily dismiss the comparison.

The nearest immigrant in my family line was my Grandfather, who came over from Germany before Hitler rose to Totalitarian Power...He could see what Hitler was doing & came to America before Hitler could grab that Power. Even though I was only knee-high to a knee when he talked to me about those times, I still remember.

Then consider that, after Germany's defeat, a lot of scientists that worked with the Nazis were split up between the US & the USSR (look up Project Paperclip). During the Cold War Era, even the CIA had conducted mind-control experiments (look up MKULTRA), many of which were based upon what our government learned from those "ex-Nazis."

The Soviet "Iron Curtain" & the Government fell within a few decades after they'd been "listening" to those "ex-Nazis," but the Soviet Union collapsed because it's system of government power was already centralized: The US is taking longer to fall because it's power was not centralized in the Government.

Well, take a look at the Bush Administration; Centralizing power in the Executive Branch is something that's been happening during the whole Cold War Era & Bush has gone the furthest in that goal than any other Administration in American history. Once government power is centralized in the Executive Branch, what do you think will happen next?

Originally posted by pjslug
I am a Jew, and I happen to agree with most everything you said...

Zionism is real, and it is a very dangerous form of fundamentalism.

My own historical research would tend to agree with this...There's a big difference in the ways that Zionists worship compared to the "mainstream" Jewish community. The Zionists were never really Semites to begin with, but used Semite-Jewish Judaism to forment war & hatred on a national & international scale ever since their original conversion. They would nearly always stay in the background, pushing the world's leaders from behind.

I think Hitler's biggest mistake was that he picked on all Jews, not just those individual Zionists that originally broke Germany's back with WW 1 & the sanctioning that followed.

[edit on 18-7-2007 by MidnightDStroyer]

shrunkensimon,

I'm not going to keep arguing with you, because it is pretty obvious that you are very radical in your beliefs, and in my experience those kinds of people are absolutely futile to argue with as they will never budge an inch, despite any evidence (and these people usually end up making good terrorists, also. NOT saying in any way, however, that you are or would ever be one).

And PJslug,

I'm actually very sad to hear you say those things, because usually I agree with you and like reading your posts (especially on the C2C drone thread). However, being a Jew and doing some obvious conspiratorial research on Zionism does not mean that your beliefs are true. I will tell you that I am Israeli, and I have lived in Israel. I also have a LOT of family there who have lived there their whole lives. I have friends, acquaintances, etc. And I will tell you, it doesn't matter the amount of research you do on Zionism. Go to the country and live among the people, talk to them, read their newspapers. Israelis are warier of war than America is now, and ever will be. The leaders, unlike Bush, are also wary. There is nothing the country wants more than to have stability and peace.

Don't forget that Israel is a country very heavily influenced by tourism. And believe me, middle east wars and palestinian uprisings do nothing to help the country. Not only that, Israel is very heavily high-tech, with companies such as Microsoft, Google, Intel and others having headquarters there. Again, destabilization of the region is not good for Israel in this regard as well.

I'M BACK(ish) I went up to Chicago for a visit only to have my appendix burst. After 9 days in the hospital I am at a friends house in NC on the mend...God bless those VA hospital doctors...for all those who have never had your appendix rupture... it really is an experience to be missed; trust me. I wouldn't even wish it on ole Cheney. IT HURTS!!!

Back to the old souless gezzer... I really have to wonder about that man. I mean as VP, and before that as Sec. of Defense he cannot be blind to the realities on the ground. Our military is stretched to the breaking point, we are running thin on replacement materials. recruitments are way down and the public is dead set against another involvement; add to this the fact that Afghanistan as a seriously weakened state after 20+ years of war was not much of a real threat and Iraq after an equal amount of time of war and dictatorship + sanctions was just waiting to be pushed over but Iran is a totally different kettle of fish, strong and unified (they may not like their mullah's but attack and they will be rallied around), to attack them would be a disaster of epic porportions for this country, the middle east and the world. A disaster that in the long run, no scratch that, a disaster that would be impossible for us to even approach winning.

Cheney must know this, is he driven by ambition, greed, power or some maddening ideology, that is what gets me. But regardless he just does not seem to care.

I could see writing a proper greek tragedy, complete with a chorus and attendent gods about these days.

The darkness is palatable.

Originally posted by Inannamute
Given the current state of congress, who *must* approve a war, it would be hard to forsee a reason for them to consider doing this, which means either a catalyzing event, or a complete takeover by the executive branch.. Which again, would require a catalyzing event. I really can't see any way that this could happen without some motivating event happening, and even then, a "terrorist" attack would have to be specifically seen as coming from Iran, absolutely unequivocally.. Remember, fool me once.. shame on you.. I believe that would be how much of congress would react to any sort of "evidence" that Military action should be taken in Iran, considering the previous mess with Iraq and WMDs..

I don't think you can be any more wrong. About congress approving a war that has fallen to the wayside. The president can send troops in anywhere he likes he just doesn't get the formal declaration of a war. If quibbling over semantics then Vietnam also wasn't a war.

Bush has shown a complete and utter disregard for what the people want so going to with Iran would be unpopular but hey what does he care? Congress can't do anything about it even with a Democrat controlled congress. Look at them staying up all night trying to again and again to pull out of Iraq to no avail. Also see that the catalyzing event that sent us off had nothing to do with Iraq and Bush can fabricate as many reasons as he likes and even after they are shot down he doesn't get held accountable for it. So I ask you, any of you, why do you think you need a catalyzing event for him to go to war? He is accountable to nobody at this point. He is beyond the reach of the other arm's of the government and even if his approval rating drops to 1% he will still do whatever he likes.

We already know he has sole power to run the government without any conferring of the other branches if a national emergency strikes (which is soooo broad it can't even be defined) that yes martial law is a distinct possibility and the suspension of elections. Why not? Who will stop him? The Dems? HAAHAHAHA. Right.. The People? HAHAHA yep because those marches on Washington clearly had an impact on policymakers..

No. The only change if things continue to deteriorate would come from either 1 of 2 places. Local militias (which I find infinitely improbable) or a coup detat in the military. Which also seems improbably because people would say "Hey that sorta stuff happens in the third world not in America!" but believe you me I think diplomatic resolutions have long since ceased to work.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

I would tend to disagree with this opinion. I'm born-American from American-born parents, so I see what the Government's been pushing for. I suggest you do some more reading about Hitlers' rise to power before you so easily dismiss the comparison.

Hello fellow Citizen, I can trace my families roots back to the original settlers of this country and no one loves America more than I do. But there is no freaking way that Bush will ever pull off what Hitler’s was able to pull off. Firstly the American people will never allow this country to become a totalitarian dictatorship. Just simply will never happen period. I agree that Bushco is trying everything they can to forward their agenda but, come Nov 08 its over for these criminals. Will the next president keep the fires burning? Who knows but the main factor is that the political environment in this country is no where near the political environment in Germany during Hitler’s time. And for all those that say Bush wont leave when his time is up, of course he will.

PS Cheney is the real concern, he is prob the most powerful VP since LBJ. Bush is a shill at best.

edit to add ps



[edit on 19-7-2007 by geemony]

Originally posted by geemony
PS Cheney is the real concern, he is prob the most powerful VP since LBJ. Bush is a shill at best.

In several places around these forums, I've always stressed the fact that, if Bush gets yanked out of Office, Cheney has to go too...To allow Cheney to retain any spot in the "Order of Succession" would be a "sin" to the Constitution.

[edit on 19-7-2007 by MidnightDStroyer]

Originally posted by shrunkensimon
Yes it is debatable. He who controls history..

Considering the dark side of forgotten history about WW2, such as the money trail, Churchill and his involvement, IBM helping Hitler with his camps etc, do you really find it so hard to believe that the figures of those actually killed in camps was exaggerated? There is more than enough grounds to question what we have been told!

To claim im ignorant makes you arrogrant. How can you possibly state you know history any better than i do, unless you were there and saw the truth for yourself. You have what i have, books, TV, internet, and word of mouth of some remaining people.. and of course, the state.

The fact the "the holocaust" refers to just the one in Nazi Germany shows the truth, aswell as the laws prohibiting people from questioning any of the history, in some countries, should be a red flag. There are far worse attrocities that have happened in our history, many worse holocausts, but yet we focus on this one..

How can I claim to know it better than you do? Easily, when you make ignorant claims like that. Like I said, I have met the people with tattoos on their arms. Are you going to tell me they had these numbers put on their arms for fun and had them done at a local tattoo parlor, and exaggerated their stay at places like Auschwitz and Dacchau for fun? Give me a break. Even the Germans admit to the holocaust. If it was untrue as you say, why is Germany one of the top nations in the EU now for spreading the message of elimination of racism and hatred? The Nazi flag is prohibited from being displayed in Germany now. There's obviously a reason for that. If you are so educated in zionism and Jewish history as you claim, this should not be news to you.

[edit on 7/19/2007 by pjslug]

Originally posted by Amberite
And PJslug,

I'm actually very sad to hear you say those things, because usually I agree with you and like reading your posts (especially on the C2C drone thread). However, being a Jew and doing some obvious conspiratorial research on Zionism does not mean that your beliefs are true. I will tell you that I am Israeli, and I have lived in Israel. I also have a LOT of family there who have lived there their whole lives. I have friends, acquaintances, etc. And I will tell you, it doesn't matter the amount of research you do on Zionism. Go to the country and live among the people, talk to them, read their newspapers. Israelis are warier of war than America is now, and ever will be. The leaders, unlike Bush, are also wary. There is nothing the country wants more than to have stability and peace.

Don't forget that Israel is a country very heavily influenced by tourism. And believe me, middle east wars and palestinian uprisings do nothing to help the country. Not only that, Israel is very heavily high-tech, with companies such as Microsoft, Google, Intel and others having headquarters there. Again, destabilization of the region is not good for Israel in this regard as well.

Yes, I said that the fault of zionism did not lay in the hands of most Israelis. If you re-read my post you will see that. I know most Israelis want peace, as do most jews anywhere. The zionist agenda, however, is a very different one. There are tons of resources you can find on the internet about zionism. They don't care about jews, they just care about their own cause. There are rumors that most if not all of the Israelis in the WTC buildings were notified about the attacks before they happened. They found many jews in the wreckage but how many Israelis did they find? I didn't see the dead bodies so I can't say if this is true or not.

Unfortunately, Israel was not a piece of land that they won by force on their own so there will never be sympathy for the Israelis by other middle eastern countries. Israel may want peace, but in such an unstable region it is just impossible; that is like putting a kitten that just wants to be left alone in the middle of a barn full of hungry pigs.

Peace will not come to any country in the region by slow progress over time or through peace talks. Human nature just doesn't work that way. History has proven time and time again over millenia that wars will be fought and civilizations will fall. Peace may very well come to humans in a globally unified civilization but not before something major goes down (which we can already see coming fast and swift). Only after the greedy and the power hungry fall to pieces will humans truly be able to unite and have world peace and prosperity.