Soldier shoots himself to avoid Iraq

Okay, I'll talk you through this one. Your target for enlistment is an 18-year-old. Now let's think...where's a large concentration of 17 to 18 year olds who don't have a job, but will be looking for one in the near future? Oh, that's right, schools!

Science!

There is no such thing as a "just war" ... war is war, people die. It all depends on your viewpoint. In WW2 the Japanese thought they were just and that we were preventing them from getting natural resources so they bombed Pearl Harbor and ran around invading people, they thought they were right. Because they bombed us and ran around invading people and massacring half of China we thought they were wrong and we were right.

Truth is, neither side in war is totally right and likewise neither side is totally wrong but war isent going anywhere so we might as well get used to it.

I mentioned in the other thread about nervous breakdowns on troops in Iraq and then I find this thread...

Maybe the guy panicked, was under pressure or mental strain and couldn't think clearly.

Poor guy.

There is such a thing as a just war. It's not usually as black and white, but defending your home from an aggressor, I think, gives you the moral high ground.

Not that I think WWII was just. We (the U.S.) entered the war by supplying the Allies with weapons and other war materials. The United States actually had a squadron (not technically USAAF, but funded and manned with volunteer U.S. Military personnel) in China before it entered the war (Flying Tigers). Our involvement was completely wrong and unnecessary. Just adds to my hatred for FDR.

WWII was more "just" than the Iraq war. I mean lets be real, Hitler came about as close as anyone has to taking over the world. He dominated Europe and furthermore the USA never even got involved until Pearl Harbor. There's a difference between SAddam and Hitler. I mean yes Saddam wasn't a nice guy, but he was never responsible for the genocide of 6 million people. Also saddam held his country together. He knew that for whatever reason those muslims don't respect anything but violence, so he became more violent than anyone else..and it worked.

After saddam was in power, and after the first gulf war..Iraq had peace until the USA came back. There weren't daily car bombings and active terrorist cells. IN fact saddam always spoke against terrorism. He even claimed he would have helpd the USA post 9-11 to smoke out the terrorists.

Now this guy who # hisself..yeah he signed up and thats his own fault. However didn't it say he went to Iraq already? Shouldn't that speak volumes of the horror that people see over there? He went to Iraq, and saw things that made him never want to go back. Furthermore he probably relized that his own country wouldn't even provide him with adequate body armor for putting his life on the line. I can't blame him for not wanting to go back. If i saw little kids getting burn beyond recognition and peoples limbs being blown off every day..i wouldn't want to go back either.

And people brought up the best point, the government only recruits poor people. Why do you think you never see them going to the millino dollar schools in beverly hills? They know there's no way in hell they will make a sensible young rich white teenager throw his life away for an BS war. That's why they go to the ghettos, where the kids are "so poor and so black" that they don't really have an option. It's really either jail, death..or the army for a lot of these kids. So the idea of "honor" in serving your country is dead, because the country malnipulates only the poorest and uneducated people into going into the army anyway.

I've been called many times by navy and marines and asked to "serve my country". They make it sound beautiful, they really do. However when you relize that serving your country in this case means bringing "freedom" to people who don't even want us there, and eating sand every day..and possibly comming back maimed or dead so the BUSH can make him and his little friends rich..you relize that there are better things to die for.

I'm not saying i would never fight..if there was another Hitler in this world..i'd put DMX's first album in my cd player, press repeat all, and fight in a second. Matter fact, if i felt like my country was still trying to serve it's citizens..i might consider fighting. But the fact is that your government does not care about any of you.

We have the corrupt police force and politicions who demonize marijuana, which if were legalized tommorow would be a billion dollar industry (both medical and recreational), we have christian groups who stab abortion clinic doctors, and hold signs that say "god hates fags" at gay pride parades, and to top it all off we have Bush who VETOS a bill for stem cell research..a technology that has the ability to eradicate deadly diseases.

Tell the government to start giving it's citizens more freedoms and choices, and then maybe people wouldn't shoot themselves at the though of "serving their country".

EXCELLENT post Spawwwn.

Where is my vote above button... why is my vote this user button gone?
I want to vote for Spawwwn, but my button isn't there...


I agree completely. The soldier has been there, he served his tour of duty already... let him go home. Forcing him back over there, to fight a war he desperately wants nothing to do with... thats just malicious.

Clearly this should be telling the government that "No the soldiers DON'T want to be there"... unlike the message that Bush loves to portray.

If they keep shoving their soldiers back over there, they might not have to withdraw the troops, they might just revolt.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
WWII was more "just" than the Iraq war. I mean lets be real, Hitler came about as close as anyone has to taking over the world.

Not really. He was doomed the day he turned on the Soviet Union.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
Also saddam held his country together. He knew that for whatever reason those muslims don't respect anything but violence, so he became more violent than anyone else..and it worked.

So it's not genocide if it's against Muslims, right?

Originally posted by Spawwwn
After saddam was in power, and after the first gulf war..Iraq had peace until the USA came back.

Oh really?

Originally posted by Spawwwn
And people brought up the best point, the government only recruits poor people.

Yeah, okay.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
It's really either jail, death..or the army for a lot of these kids. So the idea of "honor" in serving your country is dead, because the country malnipulates only the poorest and uneducated people into going into the army anyway.

Yeah, if they don't join up, they're in jail or dead, for sure!

Originally posted by Spawwwn
We have the corrupt police force and politicions who demonize marijuana, which if were legalized tommorow would be a billion dollar industry (both medical and recreational)

Yep.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
we have christian groups who stab abortion clinic doctors, and hold signs that say "god hates fags" at gay pride parades

That has nothing to do with this, but okay.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
and to top it all off we have Bush who VETOS a bill for stem cell research..a technology that has the ability to eradicate deadly diseases.

Only embryonic stem cells. All he did was say that the federal government wouldn't fund it, which it shouldn't if something is as controversial.

[edit on 14-7-2007 by Johnmike]

Personaly speaking, if this guy is a profesional soldier, as i was once, then he joined up knowing full well that if one day his country went to war he would be first in line to go, he went, served his time but just didnt want to go back...living with the continual fear of death on every corner,with every window that opens, with every car that passes..its enough to make anyone crazy..watching your friends, your brothers die in front of you and knowing that the only thing your sure of is that really, you dont know why your there..The invasion of Iraq has no foundation...would you go back?? The fear of death is in all of us..not wanting to die doesnt make him a coward..it makes him human..Im just glad the world isnt full of gung ho grady´s..the guy chose the wrong job.. and if he suffers from PTSD its even worse..

BRING ÉM ON HOME..

I AM A PROUD ENGLISHMAN AND FORMER ROYAL ENGINEERS CORPRAL WHO FOUGHT IN DESERT STORM..BUT I AM NOT PREPARED TO SUPPORT THE GOVERNMENT WHOM HAVE SENT YOUNG BRITISH LADS TO DIE FOR THE NOTHING MORE THAN THE CONTROL OF OIL IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

"THE GREATEST TREASURE THAT THIS NATION HAS IS ITS ENLISTED MEN AND WOMAN. WHEN WE SEND THEM IN HARMS WAY, FOR GODS SAKE, LET IT COUNT FOR SOMETHING"

I dont know yet what that something is, when i fought in ´91 i knew.




[edit on 14-7-2007 by andy1972]

[edit on 14-7-2007 by andy1972]

Originally posted by niteboy82
There were numerous students at the University of New Orleans who were drafted to fight in the Vietnam war. They put guns in their mouths and ended their lives. One of my best friends was a history professor there and knew these students, teaching many of them.

I don't believe this, being a UNO graduate myself, and if it is true, it speaks more to the lack of character of the individuals who did so, rather than the situation in Vietnam

I left Vietnam in Feb. 69 and there was no doubt in my mind or the minds of those with whom I served that we were winning the war. Yet, when I returned, I was exposed to all the lies regarding the stituaton in Vietnam.

The same thing is happening now. Veterans are retuning knowing the reality in Iraq and are now being exposed to the media lies and exaggerations of how bad things are when in reality there is progress.

That is one of the few similarities between the war in Iraq and the war in Vietnam.

[edit on 2007/7/14 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
The same thing is happening now. Veterans are retuning knowing the reality in Iraq and are now being exposed to the media lies and exaggerations of how bad things are when in reality there is progress.

The eyes don't lie Grady, how can any of us know what this young man seen in Iraq? What horrors? What affects it had on his psyche?

He served one tour in Iraq. And obviously did not want to return. You actually believe this is the result of lies and exaggerations in the news media?

No matter what he seen in the media, or even the loss of support for the war at home. What he seen, and experienced in Iraq none of us can possibly know, but we do know that for whatever reason, something was bad enough to make him willing to do what he did to not have to go back to that godforsaken place.

Perhaps a bit more understanding, rather than condemnation of a soldier, and fellow American is in order.

Rather than to speculate as to why, perhaps we should examine what this war is really all about, what these young men face in Iraq, and what their motivation is to continue the fight that so many are willing to give up on. Before we start seeing more and more stories like this one.

Gazz

You're combining two separate posts about two separate topics and deriving something that I did not say.

I don't know how you could confuse these issues.

As far as your statement about my "understanding" and "condemnation," are you aware that I am a combat-wounded veteran?

Do you think that I don't know how he feels or that I haven't experienced the kinds of things that he's experienced?

Do you understand what it means to sign a contract?

I know exactly how he feels, but I also know that what he did was wrong.

As far as your philosophical musings are concerned regarding the war, those are your points of view and your welcome to them.

War is hell and it takes a toll on those who fight them.

You should read The Odyssey sometimes.

There you will find a pretty detailed summary of combat-related PTSD that predates written language.

Finally, I think you're being pretty condescending toward me.


[edit on 2007/7/14 by GradyPhilpott]

I was very surprise today to find so many people be Republicans or Democrats talking about the issue of our soldiers and the war.

It seems that everybody knows about soldiers no wanting to go back to war, I met a lady that her son in law is in his 4 tour and he wants out.

What I am trying to get with this . . . very simple, regardless of the faults of some of our soldiers trying to get off their duties . . . this soldiers are getting a lot of support from friends, families and other people that are getting fed up with the Iraqi war.

So as long as the American voter supports the struggle our soldiers are going through the better they will face the government here in the US and the more the complains against the abuse of our military.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Finally, I think you're being pretty condescending toward me.

Grady, don't take anything I say personally. For the record, I have the deepest respect for you, and for your service to this country.

Does not mean we have to agree, but you should know that.

You stated that veterans were returning from Iraq, and the comments I quoted were the only part of your post I was responding to, in the context and on the topic of this discussion, which was a young man who shot himself, to avoid returning to Iraq.

If I misquoted, or misunderstood, then I apologize. But the way I took what you were saying is that soldiers who return from duty in Iraq, can be swayed or influenced by the news media. I was simply illustrating how it could be possible that this young man's reasons may have had no motivation from the media, but rather had everything to do with his experience there.

His words quoted from the article:

"As far as being shot at every day, I think it's better,"

Just food for thought.

Not to be taken as condescending!

[edit on 14-7-2007 by UM_Gazz]

I just lost a big response to your post, Gazz, and I'm not going to do the whole thing over, so I will cover the high points.

Yes, troops returning are influenced negatively by our media.

Yes, I believe that the young man in question had himself shot because he was tired of combat, not because of the media, but I really can't rule that out as a contributing factor.

I will also state that in my opinion and this has been my opinion from almost the very beginning that we are asking too much of our service members and that we are relying too heavily on our National Guard and Reserves.

We need more enlistees, but the only way, it seems, that we are going to get as many troops as we need to prevent the revolving door deployments is to institute a draft.

But, if we institute a draft, there will be blood in the streets. That is America's shame and our enemy's delight.

So, let me finish by saying that I know pretty well what this guy feels like, because I really had no desire to return to Vietnam after my wounds had healed. As it turned out, returning wasn't necessary because by the time I was returned to full duty, the Marine Corps had reduced troop strength to one division or less and I was too short, unless I was to re-enlist.

Had I been less severely wounded, I would have returned to my unit and gone back at it and frankly, it wouldn't have occurred to me to shoot myself to get out of it. I liked being a mortarman. It was sometimes scary as hell, but it was also sometimes fun and I loved killing communists. Can I say that?

I'm pretty sure they liked trying to kill me.

Honestly, there is no way to justify what this man did. We might empathize and what have you, but when you sign on with Uncle Sam, you've got a duty to perform.

Like I said earlier, at least he didn't desert and if he adopts a good attitude and if he's not too disabled to return to duty, he can probably get off with a fine, a reduction in rank to private and maybe a little brig time. Otherwise, I would expect that he'll get a general court martial and a dishonorable discharge, which otherwise, he deserves.

[edit on 2007/7/14 by GradyPhilpott]