Any ATS members on the Square????

I'd like to thank LID, Augustus, RockPunk, Masonic Light and any other Mason's I've forgotten in this thread...Sorry if I've missed you

You guys are truly a credit to your craft...As ML and some others might remember from another thread how a Masonic private hospital helped me to the max some years ago...

And you guys have been so open and accommodating when it comes to answering questions from ATS members, its been amazing...

Thankyou all, Gentlemen...

I do hope your combined posts have wiped away the veils of prejudice for many ATS members when it comes to Freemasonry...

In my mind and experience, I have only seen good done by the Mason's in the community, and what they do in private, with regard to their beliefs, should be no more scrutinised than any other belief system (church, religion, club, fraternity)

Thank you all for denying ignorance toward your organisation and its individual...

Without that Freemasons hospital, I might not be typing this...

Peace and keep on educating folks on here and in the wider community

Originally posted by Saurus
I disagree. If you can learn one word, you can learn two. Once you have learnt two words, it is not difficult to add a third...

It just requires a little dedication.

I disagree. You can learn one word, and two, and then a thousand words. Once you have learned them and repeat them to perfection, what have you shown me? That you can memorize. Yay for you. Now, tell me what they mean? Maybe you can - some (I would argue most) cant.

I have yet to see anyone tell me why letting candidates do something which takes even more work than rope memorization to demonstrate proficiency is bad except "well, uh, we just dont do it that way." Modern masonry has lost much of its original form in my opinion - including our TRADITIONAL focus on learning and debating masonic philosophy. This is a way to bring that back.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


Also, there is no evidence that Moses wrote any of the Torah, much less all of it.

Originally posted by lazy1981
There is lesson that is learned in a general sense and then there is a lesson that only "you" can take from a teaching.

And the latter is the real "secret" of the degrees.

I don't know why some people find that so hard to understand.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Excellent point. The widely accepted JEDP theory tells us that there at least four separate authors/editors of the torah due to their entirely different styles: the Jahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist, and the Priestly editor. There is no doubt that the torah is the result of an oral tradition, just an oral tradition with quite a few editors.

I would consider the masonic philosophers to be the editors of the "oral tradition" used by those who memorize masonry. Just my opinion, of course, but since someone (not you) decided to start relating it to the bible...

reply to post by lazy1981


If you are seriuosly contemplating joining the 'Craft' and desire to experience the degrees as you described I truly do not forsee this being an issue.

Once you receive your recommendation, and I say once as you come across as truly interested and I feel this should not be a problem, petition a lodge that is willing to accomodate your desire. You can personally forestall advancing to 'quickly' through any of the degees by the simple act of speaking to the Master and informing him that you wish to study the ritual further before preceding. I am happy to see you taking an interest in the ritual itself, for the contemplative it can be a extremely rewarding and enlightening experience.

Please keep us aprised as to you progress if you choose to become a candidate and I for one, and I am certain the other brothers will as well, volunteer to assist you in any way that I can in your Masonic travels.

reply to post by Rockpuck


I'm very glad to hear that most lodges will agree to the traditional method. I believe that rituals were developed with the intention of aiding in the learning process. And in any initiation ritual it would be a great loss to an initiate to bypass the experience. And as you said I would think that the rituals (if expeienced on a personal level) will give you a greater personal connection with the lodge as a whole and a better understanding of what it means to be a Mason.

Most people don't even see when tradition is being commercialized. Unfortunately even less than that realy care. It is sad to say that our society has become that of expediency. With that said I feel that this is one of the worst things that can happen to a people in general. People of our generation want everything fast and don't want to pay their dues so to speak, for example we (we meaning our generation in general) will take a job and feel as if we are entitled to the CEO position in a matter of months.
On the other hand I'm the type that feels the best thing you'll ever have is what you earned with your own blood, sweat, and tears. It may or may not be the best but you can take pride in the fact that it was gained by the work of your hands. I'm getting off thrack again.

I can understand how it is "expedient" to perform these mass initiations due to the current state of things as you have explained. But it doesn't make it any better in my opinion. I know it is kind of high and mighty of me but as a matter of principle, selling out is selling out no matter the reason.

I have to say that I didn't mean to say that "a challenge" was my primary reason or interest in Masonry but only to say that I do enjoy being pushed to excell. As far as "being the best Mason that a Mason can be," as long as you think the way that you say you do I think think that you have already come as far as any Mason, Christian, Jew or anyone that puts morals into practice can. Perfection is to be sought after but can never be achieved. The man that claims to be wise is the furthest from it. (if you follow me) It is the best we can do to make that effort to "walk the walk" if you will. I do see your point.

As far as bringing in new members I think that Masons should return to the old way of simply being public as they once were. When I speak of Masonry with people of my age group they have no idea what I'm talking about. I think that just by participation in public events like St. Patricks Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Christmas Day Parardes Masonry can shed alot of the neg. images and also become better known. In turn this could help to get the interest of new members and it wouldn't be outside of tradition so the "baby boomers" shouldn't have a reason to reject it.

I have to say that I still believe in conspiracies, but not in that way (Masonic ones). As long as there are elites and the practice of patronage then we will never be free of their thurst for more power. Any way, it is good to hear that someone actually had that feeling that you speak of. I hope that I will be so inspired.

I don't let the fanatics dictate to me either. I think that they have destroyed God for many people. Although I do have a certain traditional view of Christianity I have a few areas where I disagree with organized religion. But that isn't a problem for me because I don't think that buildings of wood or stone is where GOD is, HE is in our hearts and all around us. So, I don't have to be in church to speak with him.

Thank you for your compliment. And though I would like to join in the near future I do have alot on my plate at this time so it will probably be anywere from a few months to a year before I can make a serious effort. I can not go into anything knowing that I can't put my best into it so I have to wait. But I will let you guys know when I get to.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Thanks for the advice, I will keep it in mind when I get to join. Unfortunately, (as I told Rockpuck) I have alot on my plate as of late. I'm getting married in June, I'm going through the process of becoming a correctional officer, and a variety of other things. It is certainly a goal that I have set and I hope to do so within the year but I can't go into anything knowing that I can't do my best.

I do take great interest in the ritual and symbolism, I have always been fascinated by them both. I've been into symbolism in general for a long while. I feel that the best way to get the true meaning of Masonic Rites is to spend time on the rituals and seriously search for the meaning in it's symbolism.

Thank you for your support, it is much appreciated. I once asked a question about the Eastern Star Symbol and got into a tiff with baphomet79 over it. I truely aksed in earnest and made sure to say this in my post because I seen all the anti-Masonic threads going on. None the less I still got into it with him. After he got through with his verbal assault he answered my question with an answer that made sense to me. I guess he just got the wrong idea of my question. In any event I just wanted to thank you for your support and encouragement. I will be sure to let you and others know when I join, I'm sure that the help I will receive from you and others will be invaluable.

reply to post by The Axeman


It is a lesson that is hard won for many and lost on most. For some reason people think that spiritual and moral truths are easily discerned (cookie cutter simple). Fortunately for those that are willing, we have found that it is for each man to search out that truth on his own personal journey.

Axeman said,

At least that way the lodge would get an idea of if the candidate understood what he went through or not.

This concept is good and has been stated by several Masons in several
different ways.
My question would be cannot the symbolism and teachings of each degree
be interpreted differently by each individual? In presenting a paper on a given degree would not the people judging the presentation be forced to judge it against "what they got" from the degree? Would this not defeat the ultimate
purpose of personal betterment?

Originally posted by runningbeer
My question would be cannot the symbolism and teachings of each degree
be interpreted differently by each individual?

To an extent, yes. Some of it is geared so that every man that goes through it takes some of the same things away; that's part of the bond. We've tread the same path, and have a common link. Others are not really commented on but left to the candidate to interpret. You might say they're more subtle.

In presenting a paper on a given degree would not the people judging the presentation be forced to judge it against "what they got" from the degree? Would this not defeat the ultimate
purpose of personal betterment?

Well, first of all it wouldn't be "judged." It would be read aloud to the lodge, sure, but I think that would have quite the opposite effect than what you might think. Joe might have considered some part of the experience that escaped Fred, and by hearing Joe's paper, Fred is inspired to research that aspect or possibility further, and so on.

This would be especially effective when many young Masons (new to the Craft) are present. It is precisely because everyone gets something different out of it that I think it is a great idea.

reply to post by The Axeman


I agree. There is no need to "judge" someone's philosophical stance on masonry. The only qualifiers is ensuring that the paper has some ground in logic and reason, and that the candidate learned from the experience. The point is for the candidate to learn more about masonic philosophy, and to expose the lodge to how it's candidates perceive the experience.

OK . It would be less of a pass / fail situation ,
and more of a "where I stand now" type of thing.
That would indeed be very instructive. Especially
if the paper/s were revisited after say a year.
Kind of a then and now perspective.

reply to post by runningbeer



Exactly. I have heard of lodges (well, Masons at least) who do 2 to three research papers a year on Masonry for their own edifications, and then read them to the lodge, just to seek Light (knowledge).

Masonry is, or should be, a lifetime of learning, and fellowship with other people who enjoy learning -- among many other things, of course.

The degree paper is certainly movement in the right direction, IMHO.

Originally posted by The Axeman
To an extent, yes. Some of it is geared so that every man that goes through it takes some of the same things away; that's part of the bond. We've tread the same path, and have a common link. Others are not really commented on but left to the candidate to interpret. You might say they're more subtle.

While I understand the theory, I am not sure of how it works in practice.
Yes all candidates pass through the same 3 degrees, all presented in basically
the same way. But would it not be possible even probable that the individuals
would see and interpret them differently?

Here are a couple of examples from my life and beliefs to help illustrate what
I am getting at.

My beliefs say that we all are walking the circle of life. Yet no two of us
stand at the same place at the same time. So we all view the circle differently at different times.

We also have a principle ( because of the circle) that two can walk together but Separately. My Wife and I are examples of this. We have walked together for 27 years. But walk separate spiritual paths ( she is a Pagan Christian, I am Pagan.)

Another example would be the Grand Canyon. The View is different on the south rim than it is on the north rim. And both of those are different from the view at the bottom or standing out looking down the canyon ( this is now possible with the new glass bottom walk way).

reply to post by runningbeer


Every school, both required public education and higher education, requires its students to do many papers about the subjects which they are supposed to be learning about. In my opinion a large part of masonry is its role as a teacher of masonic philosophy, and we are students of this school. Writing about a subject - if you do it with sincerity - can help increase your understanding of the subject and when read helps illuminate others about your perspective. Everyday millions of papers are submitted to schools and colleges, and millions of different teachers and professors are capable of reading them objectively - masons are perfectly capable of doing the same thing.

Everyone interprets everything differently, but we must be careful not to take this too far as it would be committing the relativists fallacy. People can view something differently and still all arrive at the conclusion that - regardless of their personal thoughts - the paper is founded in masonic philosophy and uses logic and reason to reach its conclusions. Agreement is not a requirement to see that the student has put forth a real effort and produced a legitimate product.

.

[edit on 9-12-2007 by Tamahu]

I am a member of a fast growing lodge and we occasionally have a brother or two step up with a Masonic research paper during stated meeting. Most of the time they are about masonic history in the US and abroad (Factual). Occasionally we get interpretive/opinion papers. I think both types of presentations are invaluable to new Masons. It encourages thought and the desire to learn.

I am also a member of an AMD council. The focus there is on Masonic research and scholarship. Papers/research are presented every meeting.

Originally posted by The Axeman
reply to post by runningbeer

 

Exactly. I have heard of lodges (well, Masons at least) who do 2 to three research papers a year on Masonry for their own edifications, and then read them to the lodge, just to seek Light (knowledge).

Masonry is, or should be, a lifetime of learning, and fellowship with other people who enjoy learning -- among many other things, of course.

The degree paper is certainly movement in the right direction, IMHO.